What's would your ideal ret design look like?

[oland138]

OK this will be weird and fairly different

Holy Power stays. Spending it is NOT the main mechanic.

Seals:
Seals are different spells that share charges on a common recharge timer (think Brewmaster Brews). Spending Holy Power recharges your seals more quickly

Once activate a seal has a short duration and can be consumed instantly by Judgment (which will have a short cooldown, 3-4 globals). You can only have one seal up at a time.

The idea here is that you will NOT always have a seal up. You will want to use different seals for different things (Seal of Truth for ST, Seal of Command for Cleave, Seal of Justice for PvP) The cooldown on the seals will be relatively long so you will want to built and spend holy power as fast as possible to keep as high uptime as you can but at the same time the charge system will allow you to occasionally consume a seal early when you need the Judgment effect (while normally you will want to Judge at the very last moment)

During Avenging Wrath, Judgement does not consume a seal but instead extends it's duration. Thus you need to judge on cooldown to keep the seal going for all of AW and possibly extend beyond it.

There will be a seal talent tier which will give:
a talent that increases charges to 3 and increases the recharge timer by a small amount (5%?),
a talent that changes Judgment so once it consumes a seal there is a 3 second aftereffect
a talent that lets you activate a second seal concurrently (Judgment will give BOTH effects) (this should be balanced since you'd need to expend two seal charges).

I'll elaborate more on it later.

I love the concept of the vanilla seal system. Here are some ideas for how a seal system could work. I love the idea of having 3 charges shared between seals, but I strongly dislike the idea of bringing back the boring old seals as generic buffs. Here we go:

Basically my idea would be to have our current core abilities: Crusader Strike, Blade of Wrath, Templar's Verdict, and Divine Storm. Judgement would require a seal and consume it, and we would have Hammer of Wrath for low health targets and... see below.

The seals:

• Seal of the Crusader Works like crusade minus the damage buff portion. Judgement of the crusader would put a holy damage debuff on the target that spreads like on live with judge unworthy.
• Seal of Wrath Gives you Hammer of Wrath regardless of the target's health. It generates holy power and does good damage. You want judgement of the crusader up when you use this. Also causes judgement to deal damage based on how much holy power you spent during the seal.
• Seal of Divinity This would basically be divine hammer. Causes judgement to hit all targets. Reduces the cooldown of your seals based on how many targets are hit by judgement.

Also, I like your idea where Wings causes seals to not be consumed by judgement. That would allow for a quick judgement of the crusader on a pull.

The execute phase would only use Seal of the Crusader, but there could be talents in place to make Seal of Wrath better during execute.

Talent ideas:

• A talent to increase the duration of seals.
• A talent to increase effectiveness of seals.
• An effect like Liadrin's while a seal is up.
• An 'outbreak'-like ability that puts a fully stacked judgement of the crusader on the target.
• Seal of Command - Causes holy power spent to reduce the cooldowns of seals.

Anyway, just wanted to get my thoughts on this out there.

[Profound]

I thought WoD ret was fantastic. I also enjoy ret currently, although I am fond of the idea of making divine purpose baseline. I'm not sure we need it, though.

[Dalamian]

I thought WoD ret was fantastic. I also enjoy ret currently, although I am fond of the idea of making divine purpose baseline. I'm not sure we need it, though.

i mean its interesting because they took two abilities that were baseline, divine purpose and blade of wrath (old art of war proc), and made them talents. Which to me is just strange

[Ulthane]

So many ideas but lets just say for one moment they had the "right idea" with the Retribution Passive.

Think instead if they were to make it where Judgment procced it for 8 - 10 seconds and our mastery affected it. And if someone died we gained a 20 second version of it.

Personally a mastery that increased Judgment damage, Retribution +damage and +reduction would be a great thing, op as hell if tuned badly but hey why not.

If they kept to this mentality then the talent system they had we would need changes to it obviously but either way it would work imo.

[Rayvhen]

Rayvhen's Retribution Remake

(Keep in mind I am not a theory crafter so I will not be doing damage numbers or percentages and CD times may be and are most likely incorrect)

My idea for a new version of Retribution does away with the current Holy Power system and replaces it with a new resource called Wrath. Wrath is built up by using our core abilities, similar to current HP generators. Wrath is a resource that does not regenerate, nor deteriorate. Upon reaching 30 Wrath 1 of 3 different Seals are able to be activated and the Paladin enters Avenging Wrath (name and visuals only, no correlation to the current version of the spell) In order to explain the Seals and how they affect the rotation/spec. I will outline the toolkit below.

Offensive Cooldown:

Holy Wrath: The Paladin becomes an entity of pure holy energy, increasing Damage and Haste by 20% for 30 seconds. 2 Minute CD. Visually think Tyrael on fire!

Baseline Abilities:

Crusader Strike: Low damage filler ability generates 2 wrath, 4 on a critical strike. Melee range

Blade of Wrath: Moderate damage attack that generates 5 wrath. 4 sec CD, affected by haste. 10 yard range

Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm: High damage single target or aoe ability that generates 10 wrath. 8 sec CD, affected by haste. 20 yd range

Judgment: Low damage ability with a talent interaction (outlined below) 6 second CD, affected by haste. 20 yd range no wrath generated.

Avenging Wrath: Upon reaching 30 Wrath and activating a selected seal the paladin enters Avenging Wrath, altering core abilities as listed below. Lasts 30 seconds.
Crusader Strike->Righteous Strike: Low damage filler ability, increases haste by 5% lasting 10 seconds, stacking 4 times. New stacks refresh the duration. Melee range.

Blade of Wrath->Hammer of Wrath: Medium damage attack that jumps to all targets within 10 yds of the target. 4 sec CD, affected by haste. 10 yard range.

Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm->Final Verdict/Exorcism: High damage single target or aoe ability that increases the damage the target takes by 20% (affected by mastery) for 8 seconds . 8 sec CD, affected by haste. 20 yd range.

Judgment->Knights Judgment: Low damage ability with a talent interaction (outlined below) 6 second CD, affected by haste. 20 yd range.

Seals:

Seals are available to be activated at 30 Wrath and triggers Avenging Wrath.

Seal of The Blood Knight: All attacks the Paladin makes against his primary target increase the duration of Avenging Wrath by 1 second. (not including Righteous Strike)

Seal of The Silver Hand: All attacks the Paladin makes against his primary target adds an absorption shield to himself and all allies within 10 yards equal to 10% of the damage the paladin deals. (not including Righteous Strike)

Seal of The Army of Light: All attacks the Paladin makes against his primary target reduces the CD of Holy Wrath by 0.5 seconds. (not including Righteous Strike)

Mastery: Increases the damage taken by the target after being affected by Final Verdict/Exorcism by x% (makes the Avenging Wrath phase have the potential for huge burst)

Talents:

Row 1: Wrath Adjustments

Knights Strike: Crusader Strike now has a 3 second CD but it's Wrath Generation is doubled (4 base 8 on a critical strike)

Consecration: The Paladin consecrates the earth below him, doing moderate damage to enemies that come in contact for 10 seconds. When standing on this sacred ground the Paladin generates 1 additional wrath per second. 30 second CD

Death Eater: Upon killing an enemy that yields honor or experience the Paladin
gains 10 wrath.

Row 2: Judgment Modifier

Judgment of Command: Judgment now hits all targets within 10 yds of the primary target.

Judgment of Truth: Judgment has 50% chance on critical strikes to reset the CD on Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm.

Judgment of Blood: Judgment now generates 3 wrath.

Row 3: Crowd Control

No Changes to current version of this row. (not a pvper sorry)

Row 4: Ability Modifiers

Divine Hammer: Replaces Blade of Wrath. Divine hammers spin around the Paladin striking all enemies within 10 yds for moderate damage. Generates 5 Wrath. 6 Second CD, affected by haste.

Blade of Justice: Auto attacks have a chance to reset the CD on Blade of Wrath.

Blade of Repentance: Enemies struck by Blade of Wrath are rooted for 2 seconds.

(This row needs help)


Row 5: Defense

Justicar's Vengeance: 50% of all damage the paladin does for the next 5 seconds is converted into a heal over time affect that lasts for 10 seconds. Cannot be dispelled.

An Eye for an Eye: Same as Live.

Wrath for Glory: The Paladin converts 5 wrath into an instant heal for himself or his allies.

Row 6: Misc Utility

I feel like this is well balanced on live with the exception of replacing Cavalier with Knight's Templar (prot talent) and also granting cavalier 2 charges.

Row 7: DPS Throughput

Divine Purpose: Instantly grants the Paladin 30 wrath. 1 min CD.

Crusade: All critical strikes grant the paladin 2% haste for 5 seconds, stacking up to ten times. New stacks refresh the duration. Passive

Retribution: When Avenging Wrath is activated all damage taken by the paladin is stored, doubled and released by the Paladin when Avenging Wrath expires.

I know there's a lot that would need to be iterated upon but I feel like this would make Retribution much more unique than a slower rogue and I believe it could have a fairly high ceiling of play. I am more than interested in any suggestions to improve the spec.

Thanks for the taking the time to read.

[Ilnezhara]

Good old vanilla ret.

INEXISTANT.

So just like now in the progression raiding scene?

[Eurytos]

Rayvhen's Retribution Remake


Thanks for the taking the time to read.

These seal ideas and wrath resource ideas that a few people have talked about seem pretty cool. It's almost a different spec entirely. I feel like the two different styles of play being described in this thread could be achieved through talents alone, a HP spec or a wrath resource spec. But then I think, whats the big deal with a whole other dps spec?

Whats so wrong with having a 4th spec? A second dps spec. Druids have 4 specs, 2 are dps. More classes have 2+ dps specs than have 1 dps spec. Only
Paladin, Priest, Monk, and DH have a single dps spec. It doesnt seem like it would be that much more difficult to do. Certainly not as difficult as adding an entirely new class. But you have the traditional ret paladin dps build, and you have this wrath paladin that does dmg, but in a different, but not entirely foreign, way. With DHs only having 2 specs, its not like they are wedded to the 3 spec mold anymore, as well as finally making feral druids twa separate specs, not just the difference between forms.

This would be fun. But I also see how they could royally screw this overhaul up. Which is why 2 dps specs makes sense. Why not have the traditional ret paladin, which is what I would say my OP would be ideal. But you have this 2nd dps spec, a wrath paladin. A spec that could be really interesting in fun to play, and also give something for the devs to toy around with, without completely fucking up a dps paladin for an entire expac. Sure, there would be complaints if the spec you favored was not as good...but at least there would be an option other than entirely changing roles to raid, or rerolling another class altogther.

Sorry to go way off target, I really enjoy reading everyones ideas about design, and want to keep that the focus, not wanting to get too far off topic with people giving me explanations about why this will never happen. I get it, I have no illusions paladin is getting another spec...just thought I'd put it out there.

[Malthanis]

TL;DR: Amateur game designer wants to give Paladins a fourth, spell-DPS focused spec, so Retribution can be better in melee.

@Eurytos: I think you're on to something there, though. I haven't played Ret in a long while, but a lot of the complaints I've seen here is about the hybrid damage style (i.e. spells and weapon strikes). Get rid of the spells. Give them to a ranged, more caster themed DPS spec (Inquisitor sounds like a solid name, maybe). Let Retribution be more about wading in to the thick of combat with nothing but the Light and your weapon.

I know they kind of want all Paladin specs to have a more tanky feel to them, which I'm totally okay with. It fits the paladin theme. Given a Retribution redesign based on the above statement, give the spec more offensive/defensive buffs that trigger off of combat actions (ex: pulsing AoE holy damage from the paladin after DS for a few seconds, or a shield of some sort after another ability). Then you'd have a priority list based off of what buffs you need to line up for damage windows (either bursts on the boss, or handling large AoE mechanics from the boss).

As for the Inquisitor: this is where you'd have Judgement and Exorcism (with, of course, new spells). I don't really wanna delve too far in to this, since it's a Retribution focused thread.

[Eurytos]

TL;DR: Amateur game designer wants to give Paladins a fourth, spell-DPS focused spec, so Retribution can be better in melee.

@Eurytos: I think you're on to something there, though.

I appreciate the kind words, but to call me an amateur game designer is highly offensive to actual amateur game designers. I'm a nobody. Just a dude who has played paladin for close to a decade and knows the style of play he prefers retribution to be, but also can see the value in this Inquisitor type play style.

I try to think of it from all sides. From the player side, and the developer side. I would bet that the designers enjoy having the latitude of a 2-3 dps spec so that they could take one of those and do risky things with them. Turning a hunter spec into a melee class is really gutsy. That coulda failed miserably if they messed it up. Maybe it did, I'm not sure, I only played it briefly at the end of WoD. And it surely turned off a lot of hunters who prefer to be ranged...but all they have to do is change specs, not reroll an entire class.

And if you look at it, I think thats exactly what they do. Look at the specs that are the odd ones out, that are much quirky than their counter parts. Demonology. Survival. Subtlety. I think they like being able to experiment, and they can do that when there are options. Right now, there is only one pally dps option.

[Kithelle]

Call me odd...but I really liked WoD Retribution. Legion Ret is such a letdown and the first expansion in a while where I haven't put much effort into my Paladin.

[Eurytos]

Call me odd...but I really liked WoD Retribution. Legion Ret is such a letdown and the first expansion in a while where I haven't put much effort into my Paladin.

Not odd at all. Many like the WoD pally. I certainly like it more than Legion pally. For me, I think Cata pally was my favorite. Thats a hard thing for me to say really, because ret in ICC was so epic, it was a great time, many consider it the height.

[Malthanis]

I appreciate the kind words, but to call me an amateur game designer is highly offensive to actual amateur game designers. I'm a nobody. Just a dude who has played paladin for close to a decade and knows the style of play he prefers retribution to be, but also can see the value in this Inquisitor type play style.

Oh no, I was TL;DR-ing myself and calling myself an amateur game dev! No insults meant to you at all, I just wanted to give a fair warning for the ramble I was about to go on.

[Eurytos]

Oh no, I was TL;DR-ing myself and calling myself an amateur game dev! No insults meant to you at all, I just wanted to give a fair warning for the ramble I was about to go on.

All good, I was only joking anyway. No offense taken at'all

goddamn internet and its lack of vocal inflection and nuance and facial clue-ing

[Kithelle]

Not odd at all. Many like the WoD pally. I certainly like it more than Legion pally. For me, I think Cata pally was my favorite. Thats a hard thing for me to say really, because ret in ICC was so epic, it was a great time, many consider it the height.

I see...I figured people probably didn't like it much because it had a bunch of clutch RNG mechanics.

[Dalamian]

Call me odd...but I really liked WoD Retribution. Legion Ret is such a letdown and the first expansion in a while where I haven't put much effort into my Paladin.

Im right there with you, I just said in another thread that this is the first time in 12 years that I have officially benched my paladin. I've been Ret since vanilla, even when forced to heal but damn it I was Ret, someone had to put Kings on everyone right?

I also said in that thread that even in Legion when the numbers were good the gameplay still left a lot to be desired, but you dealt with it cause the numbers were decent, but now the gameplay still sucks AND the numbers suck and that just is not a good place to be.

Whoever had the Surrender to Madness-esque idea for Paladins though, that sounded like a cool idea.

[Titans]

Call me odd...but I really liked WoD Retribution. Legion Ret is such a letdown and the first expansion in a while where I haven't put much effort into my Paladin.

Ret is still my main but I full agree mate. Been playing ret as main spec for the better part of a decade in both heroic mythic raiding and pvp. MoP ret was really fun, especially because DP, sanctified wrath, and holy avenger were ridiculously competitive with each other. WoD took that to an even higher level because of the fun ways that those three talents interacted. Similarly, generating HoPo quickly was at least engaging when it was cs, judg, exo, hammer of wrath, etc. Whereas nowadays there are more spenders due to BoJ/DH, but it's not really as satisfying because it's a 4 button rotation. Similarly, I think that the whole 'judgment debuff' has been a huge mistake from the start. Colossus smash for fury warrs had some huge backlash through MoP, and they got rid of it... only to give it to us? I don't think it has been implemented well or that the idea was a good one in the first place. If I could change one thing about the spec, it would be to revert the function of judgment.

But yeah overall I would say that WoD ret was the most fun i've had with the spec, and even MoP ret was very enjoyable (especially due to the way the dps talent tiers changed the rotation in meaningful and engaging ways).

[Kithelle]

Ret is still my main but I full agree mate. Been playing ret as main spec for the better part of a decade in both heroic mythic raiding and pvp. MoP ret was really fun, especially because DP, sanctified wrath, and holy avenger were ridiculously competitive with each other. WoD took that to an even higher level because of the fun ways that those three talents interacted. Similarly, generating HoPo quickly was at least engaging when it was cs, judg, exo, hammer of wrath, etc. Whereas nowadays there are more spenders due to BoJ/DH, but it's not really as satisfying because it's a 4 button rotation. Similarly, I think that the whole 'judgment debuff' has been a huge mistake from the start. Colossus smash for fury warrs had some huge backlash through MoP, and they got rid of it... only to give it to us? I don't think it has been implemented well or that the idea was a good one in the first place. If I could change one thing about the spec, it would be to revert the function of judgment.

But yeah overall I would say that WoD ret was the most fun i've had with the spec, and even MoP ret was very enjoyable (especially due to the way the dps talent tiers changed the rotation in meaningful and engaging ways).

Yeah...talents are a big reason why I don't like Ret now...it's like every good talent just replaces or buffs a ability...it doesn't add anything...all passive pretty much...which is boring to me. (Plus to be honest I kinda miss using DS every now and then in single target, always liked the spell visual)

[Morally Grey Storm]

Holy magic is okay
Some healing capabilities is okay
Defensive, supportive skills are okay and supplement the Paladin aspect
But since it's Retribution we're talking about, what Retribution really lacks is offensive potential, offensive utility. Being able to hit stuff in melee with a pointy stick does not cut it as such.
Having no means to move around battlefield does not help at all, aswell.
Having a little bit of paladin flavour in a specific set of minor auras would certainly do wonders to the general feel.

So basically an arms warrior with less offense and slightly (emphasis on slightly) less mobility in exchange for combat healing abilities (not rudimentary, but effective ones) and an array of support moves and flavor abilities, topped off with shiny animations and lots of Holy Magic and cringeworthy spell names.

[The Prince]

Hammer of Wrath
30 yd Range
Instant, 1m Cooldown
When your Retribution Aura deals damage, you gain Reckoning.
Consume 50 stacks of Reckoning to hurl a magical hammer that strikes an enemy for (700% of Spell power) Holy damage, and you gain Avenging Wrath for X seconds.

*Fixed that for ya - The name that once adorned our action bar should return with a vengeance!

Seriously though, I really love the concepts you put out. I really miss seals and HoW

[Deleted]

Hammer of Wrath should return . End of story. I dont care how and what it is going to do but it should be there.

Other than that they could easily fix the mobility and self-party healing coupled by a raid wide cd (i really dont get the concept of aegis being a channeled spell used by a tank like wtf do you people even play the game) gating and tuning them behind mana.
2 rows of talents that will be mana dependent and utilize mana to work /activate.
Healing (one clever aoe that would replace flash, one self that would be coupled be a strong attack -- a bit altered jv or lolholy wrath -- and one raid wide cd like aegis tuned properly) should be using mana and not hopo although they could add some hopo requirements but for preparation reasons only not to be consumed by the spell.
Same could happen with mobility: have a passive increase depending on current mana, have a faster but mana gated ability (one that would consume mana for as long as it stayed up), have an even faster ability irrelevant to mana but with charges (much like current horse although again they should improve that shit).

All in all instead of treating retribution and prot to some extent like specs with no other resources than hopo and w/e they thing prot has while mana is there as a second bar constantly sitting on 100% is only reducing their ideas and solutions.