Ret Paladin + WW Monk have no spot in ToS

[Aggrophobic]

Oh, you're spot on with that. The nerfs won't be that huge tbh. Common number being thrown around is 8-9% overall damage drop.
Big, but still puts arms ahead of quite a few classes.

But after classes that bring immunities and better utility and that means they are out of the "race" for mythic.
It's not so much class balance and more about the horrible raid design in ToS though.

[Lochton]

Plenty of Retribution Paladins and Windwalker monks in the roster. Some just have preferences.

[WskyDK]

But after classes that bring immunities and better utility and that means they are out of the "race" for mythic.
It's not so much class balance and more about the horrible raid design in ToS though.

Ahh I got what you're saying.
Arms is in a weird place right now, they need to give the class something. No real cooldowns right now, and we just eat everything

[Divinexve]

If you can dps at the 85th percentile, all classes are viable

[Dawon]

Blizzard cannot try to manage every players feelings.
If DPS meters, sims, logs or social media makes you emotional about numbers concerning 1 small spec in a computer game...
Stop using such tools4fools to create problems (emotional or ingame), play without them and enjoy your game.

I enjoy the game now as a warrior, I dont enjoy playing something worthless... simple!

[Deja Thoris]

If you're melee and don't play rogue, you have no place in ToS.
Well arms does for 3 more days but after that, it's rogue or get lost.

It's the way Blizzard wants it, deal with it.

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Lol, no all classes are not viable.

Lo, yes they are!!!! Jesus dude, nice debating skills there. Any class if perfectly capable of performing well enough to kill heroic bosses.

[Dawon]

I think your comment is more stupid. Theres alot ret paladins, and ww monks (we even have them in our two raid teams) that does not give a shiit whats FOTM atm, they dont jump from one class to another only because some specs are way ahead of other. And they work for the kill like everyone else in the raid. If you are DPS whore and cant stand being in the middle then thats your problem. Guilds that work for world first or being in the first 20 are the minority so dont act like everyone should play only 3 best specs and rest is carried.

I'm not a dps whore and I do mechanics flawlessly.. but why the fuck should I do that and not contribute as well to dmg? If I can do all that plus bring more to the table, why sit and hold the shitstick and refuse change? Go back to LFR where shit doesnt matter, I want to play something fun, engaging, strong while till doing all mechanics needed from me... fuck sake even helping on soaking puddles and shit is easier as a warrior due to being able to move properly and not wait for a retarded horse to pop once in a blue moon... as a warrior I can cover a room twice before my pally is halfway, thus BETTER on helping out on important stuff!

Keep playing wtf u are but dont go call on people to be this and that when u are delusional and narrow minded!

[xxcloud417xx]

I'm sure your ret works wonders for the first 5 bosses or so but they are free kills after all.

I'm not going to call you out for not having those first 5 kills because I don't know you, but I wouldn't make comments like "free kills" unless you do. If you do then that's your opinion and experience talking, and that's fair. However, you're talking out your ass otherwise, so if that is the case, please refrain.

Now, it's like I said before though, I do mechanics and stay alive. This makes me a more viable option as a raider than a flavour of the week class pick would make me. ToS is mechanically more demanding for melee than NH ever was and that's the value my Raid Leader sees in his players and why he chooses to have us on the team. Some people also mentioned bubbles and BoPs, etc, and that's a fair point to make too. I volunteer for mechanics and speak up to offer options that are in my kit to help smooth out fights. Sure, Legion defintely has given us less utility than we used to have, but the point I'm making is that I'm not just a "show-up-and-DPS" kind of player. That's why I have a Mythic slot, despite people crying over benched Rets.

[Aggrophobic]

Lo, yes they are!!!! Jesus dude, nice debating skills there. Any class if perfectly capable of performing well enough to kill heroic bosses.

Who cares about heroic?

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I'm not going to call you out for not having those first 5 kills because I don't know you, but I wouldn't make comments like "free kills" unless you do. If you do then that's your opinion and experience talking, and that's fair. However, you're talking out your ass otherwise, so if that is the case, please refrain.

Now, it's like I said before though, I do mechanics and stay alive. This makes me a more viable option as a raider than a flavour of the week class pick would make me. ToS is mechanically more demanding for melee than NH ever was and that's the value my Raid Leader sees in his players and why he chooses to have us on the team. Some people also mentioned bubbles and BoPs, etc, and that's a fair point to make too. I volunteer for mechanics and speak up to offer options that are in my kit to help smooth out fights. Sure, Legion defintely has given us less utility than we used to have, but the point I'm making is that I'm not just a "show-up-and-DPS" kind of player. That's why I have a Mythic slot, despite people crying over benched Rets.

Skill is one thing but you'd think thats a given if you aim to do mythic progression. You can't avoid everything however.
Now, I haven't done Avatar yet but no amount of skill will save you if you get some bad RNG there, same on KJ it seems.

There is a reason the top guilds stack rogues after all. In ToS it's required that quite a few of your raiders have immunities. No way around that. If your class does not bring these then it better do some insane damage. If it does not then you end up like WW or feral. You just have no place in the raid.

If you're happy to wait for the raid nerfs then maybe it's ok with piss poor balance like this but for some of use, it's not.

[Fraky]

I'm not going to call you out for not having those first 5 kills because I don't know you, but I wouldn't make comments like "free kills" unless you do. If you do then that's your opinion and experience talking, and that's fair. However, you're talking out your ass otherwise, so if that is the case, please refrain.

Now, it's like I said before though, I do mechanics and stay alive. This makes me a more viable option as a raider than a flavour of the week class pick would make me. ToS is mechanically more demanding for melee than NH ever was and that's the value my Raid Leader sees in his players and why he chooses to have us on the team. Some people also mentioned bubbles and BoPs, etc, and that's a fair point to make too. I volunteer for mechanics and speak up to offer options that are in my kit to help smooth out fights. Sure, Legion defintely has given us less utility than we used to have, but the point I'm making is that I'm not just a "show-up-and-DPS" kind of player. That's why I have a Mythic slot, despite people crying over benched Rets.

Well, I don't really want to drag out this topic any longer than needed but to play devil's advocate, in your two posts you listed not one argument for bringing a ret paladin instead of something else and you only listed aspects of why YOU have your raid spot. The people here don't argue against good performance, but let's say you play like you do right now, calling important mechanics, volunteer for tasks and generally die less than your other raid members. Now what would happen if you, on top of all the things listed, also play a different class? Your Raid now has a great player who never fails and who does his job AND does more damage.

That's the whole topic here. It's not about your personal performance but about not fully using your potential. After improving and perfecting your raid performance the only additional way to improve your play even further for some people is the class switch.

[xxcloud417xx]

Well, I don't really want to drag out this topic any longer than needed but to play devil's advocate, in your two posts you listed not one argument for bringing a ret paladin instead of something else and you only listed aspects of why YOU have your raid spot. The people here don't argue against good performance, but let's say you play like you do right now, calling important mechanics, volunteer for tasks and generally die less than your other raid members. Now what would happen if you, on top of all the things listed, also play a different class? Your Raid now has a great player who never fails and who does his job AND does more damage.

That's the whole topic here. It's not about your personal performance but about not fully using your potential. After improving and perfecting your raid performance the only additional way to improve your play even further for some people is the class switch.

You're right, I mean I did bring up bubble and BoP briefly. But overall the Ret kit is very surviveable too. People may shit on FoL, but during downtime and soaks I use it to buffer-heal myself and sometimes others. Shield of Vengeance is okay, Eye for an Eye can be okay in Physical damage situations, although ToS doesn't really give me too much opportunity to make that effective though. So I mean, that's all the stuff I've got to my advantage as Ret to keep my ass alive and actually producing damage when our warrior is making-out with floor-tiles. Now, the one thing I will say is comparing us to a rogue however and I am a little disatisfied. They do more in terms of damage, AND utility which is just a slap in the face for Ret that had it's utility almost gutted for Legion in comparison. It's not all roses and rainbows for Ret, but again, I've got my slot and it's been earned and my Raid Leader believes I deserve it.

Slight extra bit of info too, blue post just came up for July 25 hotfixes giving Ret 10% buff to Crusader Strike and Blade of Justice. People are putting it at roughly 3% overall damage gain. Arms and Sub getting nerfed at the same time (8-9% expected loss for Arms, unsure about Sub). This should tighten a bit more of the gap between top and bottom specs on the sims/logs. Also Frost is getting flat 5% buff in this same fix and they've been simming roughly on-par with Ret.

[Mamut]

I'm not a dps whore and I do mechanics flawlessly.. but why the fuck should I do that and not contribute as well to dmg? If I can do all that plus bring more to the table, why sit and hold the shitstick and refuse change? Go back to LFR where shit doesnt matter,

You are not DPS whore but you cant play anything else that is not top 1 at logs, yeah sure. WW and Rets dont contribute to dmg? So for you they are healers? Or tanks? Even Method used ret paldins in their mythic kills (not in every one, I know) so just GTFO with your LFR. And Im pretty sure if warriors would swap dps with rets you would come here and talk how warriors are shit on everything and how paladins are awesome.

I enjoy the game now as a warrior, I dont enjoy playing something worthless... simple!

Just one more question, what you will reroll after arms nerfs? Ah yes, depends what will show up at the top in WL.

[Jester Joe]

Ret has immunities to soak/solo shit + blessings. It also bringe middle of the pack single target AND AoE.

Ret's single target is actually under middle of the pack, hence the hotfix buffs coming for single target damage specifically.

AoE/cleave is strong though.

Also Ret has 1 immunity that will be relevant to most soaking/solo'ing stuff, and that's Divine Shield, which is a 5 minute CD anyway. Yeah, it can clutch save when you need another soak or to pull Fallen Avatar away during Phase 2, but that's about it. No one's going to bring a paladin specifically for absorbing things when you can bring another class better at it.


That being said, I don't think World First guilds are the best way to judge what can be brought into the raid. They tend to bring whatever can to try to abuse mechanics as much as they can, to the point of stacking classes. By the time most guilds get to Mythic KJ, you're going to have more gear than they did most likely, so you won't have to run as many rogues. That being said though, on the same note, players already see that's what worked for the WF kills, so they're going to try to imitate it the best they can, regardless of if they need to or not.

[Dawon]

You are not DPS whore but you cant play anything else that is not top 1 at logs, yeah sure. WW and Rets dont contribute to dmg? So for you they are healers? Or tanks? Even Method used ret paldins in their mythic kills (not in every one, I know) so just GTFO with your LFR. And Im pretty sure if warriors would swap dps with rets you would come here and talk how warriors are shit on everything and how paladins are awesome.

Why are u so slow? I can play whatever I want and if I can contribute more as a warrior compared to a slowmoving useless ret, why shouldn't I? Why are you stupidly trying to defend hanging on to something useless when you don't have to? Are you in some ret sect that refuse u to realize other classes might be better at pretty much everything which will boost both what u bring to the raid and the fun of playing it? Sit and play your shitty ret if u want, I'm not trying to make you change but gtfo of people that actually pulls a reroll for the sake for their guild and their personal happiness!

Just one more question, what you will reroll after arms nerfs? Ah yes, depends what will show up at the top in WL.

I dont need something that is top3, I want something that is not fucking nailed to the bottom... and as I said, the retarded movement-speed of a ret is as big dealbreaker as the damage it brings. If you move slow, u are not as efficient in pulling off mechanics and u will have to move earlier than others to reach the same result, i.e. waste so much more time you could dps, stay for an interrupt or whatever.


But by all means, stick to your shit, just dont bitch at people that have more than 1 geared char and possibility to actually help their raidprogress more by a simple swap!

[Deleted]

monks are underplayed in general. Even when they are better they're just not very popular.

[xezar]

I play a Ret pally, and I only look good because a lot of other people I raid with...well suck tbh. There are very few AOE fights we do shine on like Mistress, and yeah we have 2 immunes to offer on kil'jaeden. But hell half the time I can't DS one of them myself because I'll get the crappy order number where he'll do a knock back and our crap sprint can't compensate. If I had another viable geared melee to offer instead, I'd be pushing to swap myself for one of them, but DH has one good legendaries and is ~15 ilvl lower, and rogue is even lower with bad legendaries too.

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Ret's single target is actually under middle of the pack, hence the hotfix buffs coming for single target damage specifically.

AoE/cleave is strong though.

Also Ret has 1 immunity that will be relevant to most soaking/solo'ing stuff, and that's Divine Shield, which is a 5 minute CD anyway. Yeah, it can clutch save when you need another soak or to pull Fallen Avatar away during Phase 2, but that's about it. No one's going to bring a paladin specifically for absorbing things when you can bring another class better at it.


That being said, I don't think World First guilds are the best way to judge what can be brought into the raid. They tend to bring whatever can to try to abuse mechanics as much as they can, to the point of stacking classes. By the time most guilds get to Mythic KJ, you're going to have more gear than they did most likely, so you won't have to run as many rogues. That being said though, on the same note, players already see that's what worked for the WF kills, so they're going to try to imitate it the best they can, regardless of if they need to or not.

Actually Divine Shield is only 4min CD for Ret, and if it's physical damage we can BOP anyone every 3 minutes. But yeah...still kinda meager.

[Jester Joe]

Actually Divine Shield is only 4min CD for Ret, and if it's physical damage we can BOP anyone every 3 minutes. But yeah...still kinda meager.

Only 4 minutes if you talent it. Which causes you to lose out on an extra charge of steed, which is far more useful in my opinion.

[Mamut]

But by all means, stick to your shit, just dont bitch at people that have more than 1 geared char and possibility to actually help their raidprogress more by a simple swap!

Cant because I dont have ret pally. And what you describe is just typicall FOTM reroller, but whatever. Keep rerolling if this make you happy.

[xezar]

Only 4 minutes if you talent it. Which causes you to lose out on an extra charge of steed, which is far more useful in my opinion.

Guess we'd have to agree to disagree, a basic cheat death is a lot more useful to me than 1 more charge of one of the worst sprints in the game.

[Jester Joe]

Guess we'd have to agree to disagree, a basic cheat death is a lot more useful to me than 1 more charge of one of the worst sprints in the game.

You can't cheat death on a mechanic if you can't get to the mechanic in time :P

It is one of the worst sprints in game, but it's still useful to have an extra charge when it comes to things like Fallen Avatar, soaking puddles for KJ, etc.