The lore of this game is dead.

[Flurryfang]

Alright. Why was the story of the besieging of Suramar so crap? What sucked about Duratan's brother? Why were you unhappy with our loss on the Broken Shore? And I don't mean minor gripes. Why was it crap lore?

I said i could shoot it down as great, not drop it down to crap But here we go anyway:

The besiegning of Suramar had no characters standing out, a bad ending with us killing no character of importance and changed nothing.

Durotans brother, Ga'nar, my favorite character in WoD, was killed off in comic factor by killing 2 dudes, that anybody could have killed and ended up mattering little in the overall story.

The broken shore defeat failed big, because Tyrion died nearly off screen, Varian and Voljin died after we not having any interaction with them for an entire expansion(several years) and we learnt nothing from it.

While i understand Suramar and Ga'nar, i don't understand why you see the Broken shore as a great lore moment. We came too late to actually see the Argent Crusade be destroyed, which could have been a great moment to show us, that we could actually lose. Varians death was needed, but having it come after an entire expansion where we had no interaction with him, nearly forgetting that he is there, greatly the emotional effect on the player and makes his death pretty wasted. Vol'jin did not even have enough time as Warchief to create a relationship with the player, so his death was also pretty shallow after his long absence.

I don't think these moments are completly crap, but they are not good. Ga'nar was an extremly great character, but Blizzard completly wasted him. He should have died in glorious battle, not being buried in stone, that he could have jumped away from >< Suramar is also pretty alright, but none of the characters in the story interact with each other, even when there is given such great opportunity for elves to actually talk about elves. The suramar story also lead to nothing. The city was not retaken, we killed no enemy worth while, hell when we faced the big end boss, Elisandes new first arcanist, we meet her like the 2nd time when we kill her. Not alot time to create an image of big enemy.

So there you go. There are flaws everwhere, big and small. Suramar and Ga'nar, and i will even give you the prince Farondis story, is not trash, but far from being anything that can be called great lore.

[Farrarie]

don't like the game don't like the lore=don't play the game
many people likes the lore

[Flurryfang]

The Shadow Council is in Legion.....

Twilight Cult is in Legion..... They are still active....

case and point you don't know the story. go read up a little and come back when you actually are informed.

Yes, they go under the Legion. Show me a questline, where the Twillight cult and the Shadow Council works outside of the subname Legion.

They have all been consumed by the larger entity of the legion, so you can't say, that they are actually seperate evil factions. Currently, we have only 1 big kind of boring enemy and that is the legion.

- - - Updated - - -

Thing is, story is not hard to understand but people just can't do it. It's trend these days. Here is an example not related to WoW.

You tell a guy "For this product we make serial number 1110517 where 05 is month and 17 is year. For other product we make numbers like 000123. So you just make C1-000123 instead of C-000123" He makes C1-110517. Same with WarCraft, there is everything so well connected and simple and people understand something 4th....like the op does.

Hmm i kind of get what you are going at. People put the story together in wierd ways and thefore try to make it work in odd ways.

I simply think, that Blizzard have forgotten to tell or show the story to the player, because they simply think that anybody who cares about the story already reads WoWwiki/pedia and knows everything. Small things like where Khadgar comes from is actually not explained in-game. Blizzard forgets to go sit down and ask themselfs when they make stories "Does a new player actually understand what is going on if they have only played this or the last 2 expansions?".

- - - Updated - - -

don't like the game don't like the lore=don't play the game
many people likes the lore

Many people like watching the Kardashians.

Many people need to have higher standards and ask more from a billion dollar company, that have people working for them, which only job is to write good stories and create good characters.

[Seefer]

I said i could shoot it down as great, not drop it down to crap But here we go anyway:

The besiegning of Suramar had no characters standing out, a bad ending with us killing no character of importance and changed nothing.

Durotans brother, Ga'nar, my favorite character in WoD, was killed off in comic factor by killing 2 dudes, that anybody could have killed and ended up mattering little in the overall story.

The broken shore defeat failed big, because Tyrion died nearly off screen, Varian and Voljin died after we not having any interaction with them for an entire expansion(several years) and we learnt nothing from it.

While i understand Suramar and Ga'nar, i don't understand why you see the Broken shore as a great lore moment. We came too late to actually see the Argent Crusade be destroyed, which could have been a great moment to show us, that we could actually lose. Varians death was needed, but having it come after an entire expansion where we had no interaction with him, nearly forgetting that he is there, greatly the emotional effect on the player and makes his death pretty wasted. Vol'jin did not even have enough time as Warchief to create a relationship with the player, so his death was also pretty shallow after his long absence.

I don't think these moments are completly crap, but they are not good. Ga'nar was an extremly great character, but Blizzard completly wasted him. He should have died in glorious battle, not being buried in stone, that he could have jumped away from >< Suramar is also pretty alright, but none of the characters in the story interact with each other, even when there is given such great opportunity for elves to actually talk about elves. The suramar story also lead to nothing. The city was not retaken, we killed no enemy worth while, hell when we faced the big end boss, Elisandes new first arcanist, we meet her like the 2nd time when we kill her. Not alot time to create an image of big enemy.

So there you go. There are flaws everwhere, big and small. Suramar and Ga'nar, and i will even give you the prince Farondis story, is not trash, but far from being anything that can be called great lore.

Ga'Nar died fighting a huge mob of enemies to hold off the forces so the others could get away.

Suramar had characters that stood it it was just a crap zone.

[anaxie]

I said i could shoot it down as great, not drop it down to crap But here we go anyway:

The besiegning of Suramar had no characters standing out, a bad ending with us killing no character of importance and changed nothing.

Durotans brother, Ga'nar, my favorite character in WoD, was killed off in comic factor by killing 2 dudes, that anybody could have killed and ended up mattering little in the overall story.

The broken shore defeat failed big, because Tyrion died nearly off screen, Varian and Voljin died after we not having any interaction with them for an entire expansion(several years) and we learnt nothing from it.

While i understand Suramar and Ga'nar, i don't understand why you see the Broken shore as a great lore moment. We came too late to actually see the Argent Crusade be destroyed, which could have been a great moment to show us, that we could actually lose. Varians death was needed, but having it come after an entire expansion where we had no interaction with him, nearly forgetting that he is there, greatly the emotional effect on the player and makes his death pretty wasted. Vol'jin did not even have enough time as Warchief to create a relationship with the player, so his death was also pretty shallow after his long absence.

I don't think these moments are completly crap, but they are not good. Ga'nar was an extremly great character, but Blizzard completly wasted him. He should have died in glorious battle, not being buried in stone, that he could have jumped away from >< Suramar is also pretty alright, but none of the characters in the story interact with each other, even when there is given such great opportunity for elves to actually talk about elves. The suramar story also lead to nothing. The city was not retaken, we killed no enemy worth while, hell when we faced the big end boss, Elisandes new first arcanist, we meet her like the 2nd time when we kill her. Not alot time to create an image of big enemy.

So there you go. There are flaws everwhere, big and small. Suramar and Ga'nar, and i will even give you the prince Farondis story, is not trash, but far from being anything that can be called great lore.

Ga'nar stalled a Battaltion at a pass vs Letting them fuck up Drek'thars concentartion and pour through
Tirion died to Balnazzar in the PALADIN campaign
Varina got tons of Screentime Previous to WoD which will give rise to Anduin under Velen and Turalyons Guidence
Voljin got TONS of Screentime in MoP and will likely become a LoA when the South Seas hit and we see the Prophet Zul make an appearance
Voljin had his impact in the Founding of the Horde and MoP the same expansion where he had his own BOOK
The Major Enemy of Nikghthold was Gul'Dan someone who has had about as much buildup as Arthas
Ellisandes oppression and the way Nightborn society works IS her story


You lack comprehension as I thought. So fucking sad

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, they go under the Legion. Show me a questline, where the Twillight cult and the Shadow Council works outside of the subname Legion.

They have all been consumed by the larger entity of the legion, so you can't say, that they are actually seperate evil factions. Currently, we have only 1 big kind of boring enemy and that is the legion.

- - - Updated - - -



Hmm i kind of get what you are going at. People put the story together in wierd ways and thefore try to make it work in odd ways.

I simply think, that Blizzard have forgotten to tell or show the story to the player, because they simply think that anybody who cares about the story already reads WoWwiki/pedia and knows everything. Small things like where Khadgar comes from is actually not explained in-game. Blizzard forgets to go sit down and ask themselfs when they make stories "Does a new player actually understand what is going on if they have only played this or the last 2 expansions?".

- - - Updated - - -



Many people like watching the Kardashians.

Many people need to have higher standards and ask more from a billion dollar company, that have people working for them, which only job is to write good stories and create good characters.

What I think is stupid that everytime a Character is spotlighted you want a fucking Origins story for them.

This isn't fucking spider man

Zakajz the Corruptor was sent millennia ago by his master and the corrupted Prime Designate Loken to hunt down the titanic watcher Tyr, who had stolen the Discs of Norgannon from Loken. Eventually, Tyr sacrificed himself to kill the Corruptor in the land that would later bear the name "Tirisfal" in his memory. The tomb was built at some point afterwards to house the body of the fallen keeper and imprison the body of Zakajz. The tomb was built by Ironaya and some other titan-forged.[1]

Tyr's weapon, [The Silver Hand], was held here alongside Tyr, with a failsafe set up in the tomb that should the hammer ever be removed from where it was held, the tomb would collapse. The tomb has been guarded by a secretive group of paladins known as Tyr's Guard for thousands of years, who claim to have been charged by Tyr himself.

After the Troll Wars and seeing the human kingdom of Arathor in good hands, Thoradin, first king of Arathor, turned his attention to the origins of humanity. In the Tirisfal Glades he discovered the tomb of Tyr[2] and accidentally broke the magic seals that kept Zakajz dead within the Tomb.[3] Thoradin died in the tomb to keep the creature from escaping. His sword, Strom'kar, kept the monster at bay for millennia, keeping it from regenerating fully.[3]

Delving the tomb
Around the time of the Battle for the Broken Shore, a remnant group of the Twilight's Hammer, lead by the Twilight Bishop, found and opened Tyr's tomb, hoping to awaken Zakajz the Corruptor, and possibly corrupt the body of the dead watcher, to bring about the end of Azeroth.

Sometime after the tomb was broken open, a priest and warrior went into the tomb and retrieved the artifacts they sought, and, having killed the Twilight's Hammer members they could find, left the tomb behind.

Later on, a paladin, seeking [The Silver Hand] itself, delved into the tomb alongside its guardians, and after killing the remaining dark forces found within, retrieved the hammer. Due to a failsafe that was connected to the Silver Hand, the tomb then collapsed, preventing further incursions, so as to protect Tyr's secrets forever.

OH guess what
This Ethereum bit is really fucking important considering the Void VS Legion Conflict going on on Argus with the Void Ethereals which very likely is a major enemy if 8.0 goes where everyone is suspecting.

It is revealed that in exchange for their aid in the Nexus War, Malygos had promised the Ethereum access to the blue dragonflight's treasures within the Nexus, as it was negotiated in the accord between Goramosh and Mu'fah several years earlier. The Ethereum seeks to become an unstoppable force--to become void,[1] and they are using the surge needles in Coldarra to bore into the Twisting Nether and call up void energies.[6] After Nexus-Prince Bilaal is defeated by an adventurer and Azuregos, Azuregos remains in the Nexus so that it will not fall into the wrong hands again.[7]

[Skyduke]

There is NO Lore.

How can anyone argue with that when every ret paladin gets a free Ashbringer? And when that Ashbringer will be replaced by greens in the next expansion? What will be your excuse from a lore point of view? I wonder. Or do you think the artifacts will never be replaced from now on? Because then you are naive.

As I said. There were a few good points of lore (the quests mentioned a few posts above were indeed good). But the overall direction of it is just... Dismal.

You can see they noticed they mucked up with TBC (too many well liked characters killed off too quickly... Hi Illidan), and had to backpedal and retcon a lot to milk them for stories, because they are UNABLE to come up with original content which isn't crap (MoP).

Wanna bet the expansion after the next one will be about a second coming of the Scourge?

Just to milk that as much as possible...

Before they have to take the plunge and actually come up with original content, god save us all. In terms of lore - In terms of gameplay they are fine.

[Flurryfang]

Ga'Nar died fighting a huge mob of enemies to hold off the forces so the others could get away.

Suramar had characters that stood it it was just a crap zone.

Compared to how badass his character was, his death was pretty anticlimatic. He kills like 10 people and gets burried in rubble, a job which could have been done by the axe throwers of the frostwolfs. I would have said it was alright, if he had died jumping into the entire army and going out guns blazing, but his death was a disappointment.

Name the characters..... Aside from Thalyssra, which is pretty much gets put in the background as a character once the attack begins, none of the other Nightfallen actually have interactions with other Nightfallen or demands attention.

[anaxie]

There is NO Lore.

How can anyone argue with that when every ret paladin gets a free Ashbringer? And when that Ashbringer will be replaced by greens in the next expansion? What will be your excuse from a lore point of view? I wonder. Or do you think the artifacts will never be replaced from now on? Because then you are naive.

As I said. There were a few good points of lore (the quests mentioned a few posts above were indeed good). But the overall direction of it is just... Dismal.

You can see they noticed they mucked up with TBC (too many well liked characters killed off too quickly... Hi Illidan), and had to backpedal and retcon a lot to milk them for stories, because they are UNABLE to come up with original content which isn't crap (MoP).

Wanna bet the expansion after the next one will be about a second coming of the Scourge?

Just to milk that as much as possible...

Before they have to take the plunge and actually come up with original content, god save us all. In terms of lore - In terms of gameplay they are fine.

We are sealing a Sargeras the Dark TITAN away at the SEAT OF THE PANTHEON

There is your perfect excuse

- - - Updated - - -

Compared to how badass his character was, his death was pretty anticlimatic. He kills like 10 people and gets burried in rubble, a job which could have been done by the axe throwers of the frostwolfs. I would have said it was alright, if he had died jumping into the entire army and going out guns blazing, but his death was a disappointment.

Name the characters..... Aside from Thalyssra, which is pretty much gets put in the background as a character once the attack begins, none of the other Nightfallen actually have interactions with other Nightfallen or demands attention.

he holds off a battalion in a suicide run so they don't overwhelm the valley and destroy the Frostwolf Clan.

Thats the literally story. did jump into an army did you even fucking do it?

Thats not 10 orcs

its a fucking army marching with Cannons and Gronn. All it takes is the first line of skirmishers Ga'nar stalled to go fuck with Drek'Thar and the pass would not be collapsed meaning the Frostwolf Clan is slaughtered.




Perhaps reading material like this is more your speed

[MrLachyG]

They have written absolutely nothing new which is not absolute garbage. The only "original" (read: not present in Warcraft 1, 2 or 3 and not retconned over and over because they have no imagination) was MoP, and we got Pandas and Monks from that. I'm not even going to go there.

The fact that this game is not about PvP makes "Warcraft" inane. They are forced to make heroes of the Horde and of the Alliance into either raid bosses or neutral questgivers, because they cba to come up with new original and well written characters, and because creating content that fits everyone is faster than creating content that differs for either side.

Dalaran? Human city, two times hub. Neutral.
Theramore? Major alliance city... Destroyed with a "cutscene" of a goblin dropping a bomb on it (why not do it to all the alliance cities then? Seriously, who the FUCK wrote this?)
Vol'Jin? Eats an arrow, names Sylvanas warchief (Really? Lol...)
Kil'jaeden and Archimonde just reused, tired. Hopefully they are really dead and this isn't a setback this time.
Zul'jin? Boss in an instance easily forgotten.
Thrall? Pointless Mary Sue. Had to pull him out of the Horde and sideline him because he was getting so tired too.
Archbishop Benedictus? Lolcorrupted.
Khadgar-Turalyon-Alleria = All neutral ('cause that makes sense and writing is sooooo hard)

There's no war in warcraft. Can't write that one faction wins because it pisses off the other. Can't make real changes to the world. Gotta keep the status quo.

WE HATE EACH OTHER BUT THE REAL ENEMIES ARE OUT THERE SO LET'S HOLD HANDS TEMPORARILY! BEWARE WE WILL GO BACK TO BEING MEAN TO EACH OTHER IN THE NEXT EXPANSION.

But in the one after that... There will be another foe that will force a "temporary" truce.

Most of the neutral things you've mentioned are neutral by necessity - to combat the legion, to combat the scourge etc. not every expac has to have Alliance and Horde at each other's throats; sometimes it's necessary to beat a certain enemy (enemy of my enemy is my friend). That being said, I do hope we see some more alliance vs Horde in either 7.4 or 8.xx

An Old God enemy would hopefully cause some major skirmishes via manipulating certain key people.

Regarding Pandas, Chen Stormstout was in WC3

[Northem]

They have written absolutely nothing new which is not absolute garbage. The only "original" (read: not present in Warcraft 1, 2 or 3 and not retconned over and over because they have no imagination) was MoP, and we got Pandas and Monks from that. I'm not even going to go there.

The fact that this game is not about PvP makes "Warcraft" inane. They are forced to make heroes of the Horde and of the Alliance into either raid bosses or neutral questgivers, because they cba to come up with new original and well written characters, and because creating content that fits everyone is faster than creating content that differs for either side.

Dalaran? Human city, two times hub. Neutral.
Theramore? Major alliance city... Destroyed with a "cutscene" of a goblin dropping a bomb on it (why not do it to all the alliance cities then? Seriously, who the FUCK wrote this?)
Vol'Jin? Eats an arrow, names Sylvanas warchief (Really? Lol...)
Kil'jaeden and Archimonde just reused, tired. Hopefully they are really dead and this isn't a setback this time.
Zul'jin? Boss in an instance easily forgotten.
Thrall? Pointless Mary Sue. Had to pull him out of the Horde and sideline him because he was getting so tired too.
Archbishop Benedictus? Lolcorrupted.
Khadgar-Turalyon-Alleria = All neutral ('cause that makes sense and writing is sooooo hard)

There's no war in warcraft. Can't write that one faction wins because it pisses off the other. Can't make real changes to the world. Gotta keep the status quo.

WE HATE EACH OTHER BUT THE REAL ENEMIES ARE OUT THERE SO LET'S HOLD HANDS TEMPORARILY! BEWARE WE WILL GO BACK TO BEING MEAN TO EACH OTHER IN THE NEXT EXPANSION.

But in the one after that... There will be another foe that will force a "temporary" truce.

Obviously you're right... World of Warcraft (the Warcraft universe in general) is mortally wounded, specially due to the latest additions to its "lore".
For God's sake! Even the Hearthstone lore is better in all senses!!

Only Horde fanboys and Blizzard's bootlickers could deny this, and believe me, these forums are full of them...

[Dreadlack]

Blizzard is just slowly killing the lore because they use it to fit the gameplay.

Need new weapons for an expansion? Give them all artifacts and have everyone run around with Ashbringers.
Need a new boss for some shiny loot? Hey let's bring back Archimonde that took thousands of magical ancients wisps to destroy, and have him die from 25 players and a shitty orc hitting him!
Need new quest givers? Hey let's bring back some old heroes from either faction but it would be much better if they were neutral! Even if those heroes despised the faction they are now offering quests and rewards! Genius!

Blizzard is just digging a deeper and deeper hole with every expansion. Our powers are rising and the threats we are dealing with are getting more and more ridiculous. Let's just work together with titans who are supposed to be the wisest and most powerful entities in the cosmos to stop this ultimate evil who can cleave planets! And after we're done, let's go search some dog poo for a key so we can get a green item from some no name in the Broken Isles, that's how you treat your commander!

[Morssoe]

You guys are too high. Lore is still fine.

[Highwhale]

In my opinion Old Gods lore was best new thing in WoW. I remember how i was thrilled during Silithius questline and during my 1st raid into AQ. The rest is complete trash - Alliance vs Horde thing looks lame when major characters of one side become neutral just because other side don't have their counterparts. They butchered Arthas in WoTLK by making him from grey character into complete bully asshole (Hi fucking books!). They can't kill some characters because of fan service and faction balance (Hi Sylvanas/Malfurion/Thrall!). WoW is not kind of mmo with good lore and story anymore.

[Flurryfang]

Ga'nar stalled a Battaltion at a pass vs Letting them fuck up Drek'thars concentartion and pour through
Tirion died to Balnazzar in the PALADIN campaign
Varina got tons of Screentime Previous to WoD which will give rise to Anduin under Velen and Turalyons Guidence
Voljin got TONS of Screentime in MoP and will likely become a LoA when the South Seas hit and we see the Prophet Zul make an appearance
Voljin had his impact in the Founding of the Horde and MoP the same expansion where he had his own BOOK
The Major Enemy of Nikghthold was Gul'Dan someone who has had about as much buildup as Arthas
Ellisandes oppression and the way Nightborn society works IS her story


You lack comprehension as I thought. So fucking sad

- - - Updated - - -



What I think is stupid that everytime a Character is spotlighted you want a fucking Origins story for them.

This isn't fucking spider man



OH guess what
This Ethereum bit is really fucking important considering the Void VS Legion Conflict going on on Argus with the Void Ethereals which very likely is a major enemy if 8.0 goes where everyone is suspecting.

Thats not what the cinematic shows. He kills less then 20 people, that are quite far away from Drekthar. Small changes could have been made to the cinematic, that would make it good, but it simply lacked a sense of urgency, that required such a sacrifice. Again, Ga'nar is still a good character and his ending is not terrible, it is just suppar to his overall story. They could have easily made it better.

Tirion really did not die, he survive a bit enough to talk to the player, but from the main story points of view, Tirion was very defeated by Krosus and that is the defeat i will measure him by. Also, having big lore stories actually end in class campaigns is also a bit part of the entire overcomplexity. I like many of the great stories in the class campaigns, but if i have to actually play a specific class to get the ending of an already started story, that is important, i think you lose something there.

So Varian. Yes, he gets tons of screentime before WoD, but WoD lasted a long time! If you want players to emotional connections to characters, you need to reinforce that connection with interactions. Players had not interacted with Varian in about 2 years, so much of that connection had faded.

Vol'jin is the same thing with Varian. He was away for far too long and he also had not a clear position in the world. He had done nothing as Warchief, so him dying and at the same time him being Warchief, missed the mark. Again, a few player interactions before their deaths would have solved this problem and reinforced the emotional connections, reminding us of what these characters are. Also, you have no way of knowing if he comes back. Blizzard have a record of forgetting characters.

You mention the book, which gives me a chance to say about that. Books are great for the nerd, but bad for the player. 95% of the entire WoW playerbase don't read the books. If Blizzard builds up characters around these books, players will not understand them, are not emotional connected to them and will not care. Therefore, the books don't matter, because if the story can not be found in the game, the game fails and that is what we are essentially talking about.

If you look and read the quests about the suramar questline, both the start and the 2nd part, Elisande IS the one enemy. Thalyssra sets up the scene quite well: Elisande has gone against her people and we need to defeat HER, not Gul'dan. Every single move, that we make in the questline is about defeating the Nightborne, not breaking the Legion. All the big bad guys are Nightborne, not Demons. So we should have an ending with the story-line, that had something to do with the Nightborne and Nightfallen, and how they all work out in the end.... But we don't. We get to kill one final character, which have actually done very little in the entire story and suddenly it stops....sending us into a raid instead of letting the single player finish or create some climax.

Finally, as i said before, the Suramar questline is really all about Thalyssra against Elisande, but where the major break is, apart from the lack of main characters in the story, is that Elisande has very little pressence in story overall. Yes, she is the enemy, but we never really see her. It would be like if in a james bond movie, we don't get to see the big bad guy undtil 2-5 mins before james bond kills him.... Or if in Lord of the Rings, we never actually see Sauron and the only time we see the eye, is when the ring is destroyed and the eye dies.




To answer your comment about the origins story, is that i don't want origin stories. We already have that and we don't need repeats. What we do need is individual factions, enemies with different goals and enemies who are not completly EVIL!.

Spider-man is a good example. It would be like if every single enemy in the spiderman universe or atleast for a season of the comic, came after Spider-man because they wanted revenge. Not because of money or because they were maybe blackmailed to go after him, but just because of blindless revenge. All the enemies kind of blur together then and lose what could make them interesting.

This is the same problem with the Legion enemies. All of them are just pure evil, wanting to kill us just because the Legion commands them. We get a bit close with the Feltotem clan, but it is again the reused "we do it for power" thing. It could be nice if we simply had an enemy, that wanted to fight to protect their lands or on the base of none-shared morals and ideals.

- - - Updated - - -

We are sealing a Sargeras the Dark TITAN away at the SEAT OF THE PANTHEON

There is your perfect excuse

- - - Updated - - -



he holds off a battalion in a suicide run so they don't overwhelm the valley and destroy the Frostwolf Clan.

Thats the literally story. did jump into an army did you even fucking do it?

Thats not 10 orcs

its a fucking army marching with Cannons and Gronn. All it takes is the first line of skirmishers Ga'nar stalled to go fuck with Drek'Thar and the pass would not be collapsed meaning the Frostwolf Clan is slaughtered.




Perhaps reading material like this is more your speed

That is pretty much 10 orcs xD I can go up to about 20 if i am nice. The sad thing is, that 10 mins before this cinematic, the player personally kills like 50 or more orcs. We slaughter SO many of them and the climax is supposed to be the greatest warrior in the entire Frostwolf clan, a guy we should see a legend, killing less then half of that..... We could have done that, the frostwolfs could have done that. No need for retreat. Again, if this was something only a big badass could do, i would be impressed, but it does not shine like that to me.

i like having this discussion with you, i really do, but you are getting a bit too personal here. While i do talk a bit from opnion, i also talk alot using writers arguments, such as character interaction, character development, story-and characterpause, emotional connection between reader/player and characters and character complexity. If you keep trying to go personal and use childish attacks and not giving well written arguments, it is you who need to read up and come back when you have learned to talk about this subject proberly.

[Arrashi]

How are a bunch of mindless zombies more threatening than a bunch of driven zombies supported by necromancers, siege weapons and tacticians.

Because they can create mindless zombie democracy and elect mudmug as their president. Then they will take over the world.
I mean its possible that one day one of them will decide to stop being mindless and push others to do the same. Thats warcraft lore for you.

[Highwhale]

Because they can create mindless zombie democracy and elect mudmug as their president. Then they will take over the world.
I mean its possible that one day one of them will decide to stop being mindless and push others to do the same. Thats warcraft lore for you.

Sometimes i wonder how you avoiding being infacted with your mudmug bullshit...

[Odinfrost]

There is NO Lore.

How can anyone argue with that when every ret paladin gets a free Ashbringer? And when that Ashbringer will be replaced by greens in the next expansion? What will be your excuse from a lore point of view? I wonder. Or do you think the artifacts will never be replaced from now on? Because then you are naive.

As I said. There were a few good points of lore (the quests mentioned a few posts above were indeed good). But the overall direction of it is just... Dismal.

You can see they noticed they mucked up with TBC (too many well liked characters killed off too quickly... Hi Illidan), and had to backpedal and retcon a lot to milk them for stories, because they are UNABLE to come up with original content which isn't crap (MoP).

Wanna bet the expansion after the next one will be about a second coming of the Scourge?

Just to milk that as much as possible...

Before they have to take the plunge and actually come up with original content, god save us all. In terms of lore - In terms of gameplay they are fine.

Have you ever heard of the term "Gameplay and Story Segregation"? In lore there is ONE paladin having the Ashbringer, ONE Death Knight that wields apocalypse, ONE mage who holds felomelorn, ONE druid who controls the scythe of elune. But due to in gameplay we, the players, are that one person everyone needs access to it. Also the reason why so many had Thunderfury, Sulfuras, Fangs of the Father, "Archus" Great Staff of Antonidas, Quel Delar and oh so many other weapons. It's a game. Lorewise, there is only one... Gameplaywise not so much.

Also, Blizzard has mentioned that they are trying to find a way to justify the loss of the artifact weapons, such as maybe... I dunno? They break just after sealing Sargaras away, or they using all their super awesome artifact power to do it and become some really durable bars of metal, blunt or sharp. Blizzard know they need a way for us to not use them anymore, and it will be told in due time.

Finally... MoP crap? I'd personally say it was some of the better written stuff they have ever made. The Horde/Alliance conflict was really felt from the start and that was by the freaking SCOUTING PARTY. Then 5.1 rolled around and a full fledged war began. Meanwhile we had all the stuff about the sha which showed that just because an old god was dead, didn't mean he was out of the game. That freaking heart being the source to all the troubles pandaria had for ten THOUSAND years... heck, probably even more. And the way they ended up weaving it together, albeit a bit forced with how Garrosh acted, ended up working great. Even comming full circle with the Claxxi following up on their threat that once their master (y'shaarj) rises again (garrosh taking the heart) that we would be their enemies again. And finally, it had some honest to god lighthearted moments and quests that wasn't complete memeparty or reference galore of uber lolz (looking at you uldum, though i personally liked that)

[Arrashi]

Sometimes i wonder how you avoiding being infacted with your mudmug bullshit...

Because its message of love. And thats rarity in sea of ignorance, bias and poorly written fanfictions.

[Mehrunes]

Don't start harboring delusions about it

This is kind of beautiful.

Ofc it wasnt destroyed, thrall and jaina were good buddies and jainas faction of humans from lordaeron were almost entirely seperate from the humans of stormwind.

Pretty sure they meant that it was destroyed only two years after Garrosh became Warchief.

Its a pretty good strategic place for the alliance, not really the middle of horde territory either. Horde territory following wc3 was basically Durotar-barrens-mulgore-bits of stonetalon. Central and Southern Kalimdor isnt just one big horde zone.

And what is between Stonetalon and Durotar? Not sure why you're bringing up Southern Kalimdor since Theramore is not in it and as far as central-east Kalimdor is concerned, it is predominantly core Horde territory. With Theramore sticking out like a sore thumb.

Garrosh blowing it up was actually completely out of character and randomly retarded. Probably the worst thing he did. Unprovoked and just made the alliance and jaina in particular (most powerful mage besides khadgar?) now want horde blood. Literally retarded move unless he actually wanted war, which made 0 sense following his development in cata.

Except the war was already ongoing, Jaina's forces stroke first (Northwatch attack on Crossroads), Theramore was the main staging ground for Alliance reinforcements from Eastern Kingdoms and Theramore's forces were leading the Alliance offensive in aforementioned core Horde zones in Cata (which included a planned attack on Orgrimmar). Theramore was a hostile city state, that initiated the hostilities against the Horde and given its strategic importance, it should have been destroyed way earlier that it was.

His sudden change of character from his lessons in cata was one of the worst things blizz did in wow for a character they actually created during WoW's time. Compare him to Varian and just look at what happened.

It wasn't sudden. By the time of Tides of War the war was going on for 2 years and Garrosh grew more and more impatient. Which is why he wanted to deal a singular blow to the Alliance that would put it on its knees and prevent from rising again.

and in cata I felt annoyed my faction wasn't doing anything and everything was locked by playing horde, I'll give you mop, that was closest they got the faction done good.

What was locked by playing Horde again?

[Mehrunes]

By the way, we have great lore chars In our order halls just sitting around doing nothing. The best example Is Calia Menethil, Arthas' sister you say? Surely she'd play an Important role? She just stands around doing nothing? Yup that's what she does. Retaking Lordaeron? No that'd be silly, why? Calia is neutral now, no hate for the Undead who slaughtered her family, or the brother who became the ruler of the undead... no no no. No emotions at all for the bloody sister of ARTHAS MENETHIL... you have great potential story RIGHT THERE sitting In your order halls among other places, and Calia just being the most noticeable and recognized one.

Except Calia's pre-Legion story was her sitting around doing nothing and the only role she has played was that of a walking vagina to be married off for political gains. Calia has no political base, no manpower to push her claims (if she even has a claim to begin with), her family name is forever tainted. And what's the link between hating the undead that slaughtered her family and retaking Lordaeron? Scourge slaughtered Lordaeron. So even if you added hatred of the Scourge for her character, what does that achieve in regards to her retaking Lordaeron? And even if she did start shit against the Forsaken, despite it being patently retarded in the middle of a Legion invasion, this great potential story would be redundant even in the context of just this expansion thanks to Genn.

Also, for the OP, there are issues with WoW lore of course, it's not flawless. But it would be literally trash tier writing if there was Faction war shoved into every single corner of the game. It's almost like, the risk of Azeroth being destroyed is far greater than "Hey, let's go steal the Night Elves' woods while they're not looking again!".

Yeah, gotta agree with that. Now, I must admit I personally view the issues with WoW lore as monumental ones. Because the issues are things like:
-the writers not paying attention to their own fucking story, which forces them to constantly retcon something;
-the communication between in-game story department and people writing OOG material being almost non-existent which leads to more retcons and stuff like Jaina being a yo-yo;
-gameplay before lore;
-wasting writing on maymays, shitty jokes and overplayed pop culture references;
-putting comic book writing on a pedestal as some amazing example to follow despite it being ridden with issues of its own and being a different format altogether;
-individual story developments that were rather big blunders like the endings of all expansions, the entirety of Cata or "there is only one Legion".

But even with all of that, the OP is just weird. Making a story focused on not just faction conflict, but PvP specifically would probably not work (especially if they involved the dumpster fire that is the PvP team). Faction conflict is already a bit overplayed and stale and there already was a huge story-arc dedicated to it so it'd just be redundant and lazy storytelling (admittedly, Blizzard's forte, but that'd exactly be the problem). And the idea that war against other forces isn't war and as such it doesn't fit Warcraft is just bizarre.

Having people complain about Pandaren 5 years after the fact is also mind-boggling. While they look like land whales and not the more serious artworks that were floating around before their model was released, and other than the bunch of morons at the Shado-Pan their writing was pretty much "here be beer jokes" (ohohoh, still so funneh after half a decade), the issue with them being panda-related eludes me. Can't say I recall complaints about Furbolgs.

And then there are the bullet points that are completely disjointed from the rest of the post. The weirdest one is the Theramore complaint. How is that a negative thing if the OP wanted faction conflict? What is the specific complaint there? And what's wrong with characters becoming corrupted (other than the frequency of that happening in WoW, but the OP did not touch on that)?