Battle in the Med. Far right group sends boat to stop migrant boats from Libyia

[procne]

As anyone well versed in modern international rights knows, when a Nigerian sets sail from Libya and makes it 10% of the way to Italy, they have earned their new residence in Italy and anyone that thinks otherwise is probably a xenophobe. Who's to say that these people are any less Italian than someone with a couple millennia of ancestors living in Tuscany?

Witty, but untrue.
You make it sound as if the rescuers wanted to bring those people to Italy, as if it was a secret plot by those boat crews to flood Europe with immigrants.
The truth most likely is:
The crews rescue drowning people. Because it's people. Then, once immigrants are on board it turns out they can't be dropped in Libia because no port will accept them. Immigrants have no documents on them, so no proof they are Libians (majority of them aren't anyway). So the international law forbids the crew to drop those people off in Libya. So they return to their original country, Italy, where the immigrants are supposed to be dropped off for further processing. But most of them escape.

Yes, it's a shitty situation for Europe because its own law and morals gives no practical instruments to control immigration of this kind. I am not sure what's worse - having those people pour in or abandoning the morals and letting them die. No matter how you spin it, at someone point someone has to make a decision between easily helping those people or just watch them die.

[ranzino]

Witty, but untrue.
You make it sound as if the rescuers wanted to bring those people to Italy, as if it was a secret plot by those boat crews to flood Europe with immigrants.
The truth most likely is:
The crews rescue drowning people. Because it's people. Then, once immigrants are on board it turns out they can't be dropped in Libia because no port will accept them. Immigrants have no documents on them, so no proof they are Libians (majority of them aren't anyway). So the international law forbids the crew to drop those people off in Libya. So they return to their original country, Italy, where the immigrants are supposed to be dropped off for further processing. But most of them escape.

Yes, it's a shitty situation for Europe because its own law and morals gives no practical instruments to control immigration of this kind. I am not sure what's worse - having those people pour in or abandoning the morals and letting them die. No matter how you spin it, at someone point someone has to make a decision between easily helping those people or just watch them die.

the boats did not start at a port, just drop them on the beach again and done.

[procne]

the boats did not start at a port, just drop them on the beach again and done.

Those are not rowboats. They can't just land on a shore. They can only dock in a port. The most they could do is sail near the shore and forcibly throw the immigrants off the boat. Imagine how hard they would resist. Would you have a courage to enter a melee fight with desperate Africans, who outnumber you?

[Spectral]

Witty, but untrue.
You make it sound as if the rescuers wanted to bring those people to Italy, as if it was a secret plot by those boat crews to flood Europe with immigrants.
The truth most likely is:
The crews rescue drowning people. Because it's people. Then, once immigrants are on board it turns out they can't be dropped in Libia because no port will accept them. Immigrants have no documents on them, so no proof they are Libians (majority of them aren't anyway). So the international law forbids the crew to drop those people off in Libya. So they return to their original country, Italy, where the immigrants are supposed to be dropped off for further processing. But most of them escape.

Yes, it's a shitty situation for Europe because its own law and morals gives no practical instruments to control immigration of this kind. I am not sure what's worse - having those people pour in or abandoning the morals and letting them die. No matter how you spin it, at someone point someone has to make a decision between easily helping those people or just watch them die.

They could always just not patrol Libyan waters. You might be able to sell me on it being ethically tricky in Italian waters and maybe in international waters, but actively entering Libyan waters to pick up Nigerians and bring them to Italy is just downright bizarre.

I suppose it makes enough sense if Europe's "law and morals" are that no one should ever be denied entry into Europe though (or at least not be denied entry just because they're not European, have no business in Europe, and managed to get on a sinking boat). What irony it would be for a system of law and morals to be created that's so obviously self-destructive though!

[procne]

But is it really Italian coast guard or just random fishing / private boats? If it's always coast guard - then indeed what is it doing near Libyan shore?

As for the self-destructive morals - it's not the first and not the last time in history. Usually morals make your own survival / life harder to some degree in a short run. But it allows to build societies. In any case, both unchecked immigration of foreign culture, and abandoning one's morals, is damaging to European society. The question is which is worse.

[Deleted]

The crews rescue drowning people. Because it's people. Then, once immigrants are on board it turns out they can't be dropped in Libia because no port will accept them.

I have a great solution, Italy should stop accepting them.

So the international law forbids the crew to drop those people off in Libya.

No it doesn't, if it did, it would forbid dropping them off in Italy.

Yes, it's a shitty situation for Europe because its own law and morals gives no practical instruments to control immigration of this kind. I am not sure what's worse - having those people pour in or abandoning the morals and letting them die. No matter how you spin it, at someone point someone has to make a decision between easily helping those people or just watch them die.

There is the third option, returning them to Libya.
A, Not caring that they aren't Libyan.
B, not caring what Libya thinks.
Oh and our current position of letting them in only fuels more human trafficking - its in no way 'moral'.

[PC2]

I have a great solution, Italy should stop accepting them.

Impossible, Europe is their birthright!

[Deleted]

Impossible, Europe is their birthright!

Of course, anyone who makes it to Libya is an Italian, see this map:

[procne]

I have a great solution, Italy should stop accepting them.

It's not "accepting" them. They simply escape.

No it doesn't, if it did, it would forbid dropping them off in Italy.

International law doesn't forbid dropping people of unknown citizenship in random countries?

There is the third option, returning them to Libya.

A, Not caring that they aren't Libyan.
B, not caring what Libya thinks.

What if the ship is not allowed to dock in a port or, even if it's allowed, then the people onboard are not allowed, by the port autorities, to leave the boat? After all those are people of unknown citizenship. Are we going back to conspiracy theories? Do you think it wouldn't be more convenient for those boats to drop off those people at Libyan coast instead of hauling them all the Italy, and they wouldn't do that if they could? And that, instead, they have some secret agenda in collecting brown people off the Libyan coast and just funnel them to Europe?

Or do you just think we can do anything because we are might Europe and we don't have to care what some brown people think in the backwater country of Libya. And if they disagree we can just wave them away or just nuke them if they're too annoying? Ok, this was silly, but seriously - what can they do if they're simply not allowed to dock in Libyan harbors with those people on board? And it's not like those people will want to just leave the board - you think Libyan authorities will send police / army to pull those people of the boat forcibly? "they're on your boat, it's your problem, we don't want anything to do with it. They're not Libyans.

Oh and our current position of letting them in only fuels more human trafficking - its in no way 'moral'.

Neither it is moral to watch people drown, while you can help them, because sometime in the future it may save someone else's life. BTW death penalty is forbidden in most European countries and just letting those people drown is even worset than that - i would put it on the same level as lynch or pogrom. Some random people deciding, without a court, that some other random people should die.

[Deleted]

It's not "accepting" them. They simply escape.

they should use the same Magic powers libya uses not to take them in.

International law doesn't forbid dropping people of unknown citizenship in random countries?

So what does stop them from dropping them off in libya?

What if the ship is not allowed to dock in a port or, even if it's allowed, then the people onboard are not allowed, by the port autorities, to leave the boat?

A, Not caring that they aren't Libyan.
B, not caring what Libya thinks.

Are we going back to conspiracy theories? Do you think it wouldn't be more convenient for those boats to drop off those people at Libyan coast instead of hauling them all the Italy, and they wouldn't do that if they could? And that, instead, they have some secret agenda in collecting brown people off the Libyan coast and just funnel them to Europe?

I'm not going for conspiracy theories - I'm saying Italy should refuse to let those boats come to port.
and if they do, arrest them and jail them for human trafficking.

Or do you just think we can do anything because we are might Europe and we don't have to care what some brown people think in the backwater country of Libya. And if they disagree we can just wave them away or just nuke them if they're too annoying? Ok, this was silly, but seriously - what can they do if they're simply not allowed to dock in Libyan harbors with those people on board? And it's not like those people will want to just leave the board - you think Libyan authorities will send police / army to pull those people of the boat forcibly? "they're on your boat, it's your problem, we don't want anything to do with it. They're not Libyans.

Not our problem.

Neither it is moral to watch people drown, while you can help them, because sometime in the future it may save someone else's life. BTW death penalty is forbidden in most European countries and just letting those people drown is even worset than that - i would put it on the same level as lynch or pogrom. Some random people deciding, without a court, that some other random people should die.

I'm not saying they should drown, i'm saying they shouldn't be let into italy,

[ranzino]

...

I'm not saying they should drown, i'm saying they shouldn't be let into italy,

do it like Down Under, they move them to shit islands and they never ever reach mainland Australia.

[Deleted]

The point is to stop them dying in shitty bots.

If the boats are turned back to Africa then word will spread that people smugglers can't help you and people wouldn't spend their life's savings to make the journey if they would just be turned back anyway.

The only reason so many are drowning is because these rescue organisations are sending the message that they will be saved and brought to Europe.

Actually these people smugglers are in contact with rescue organizations and are probably getting part of the money. Otherwise they wouldn't come pick them up from African coastal waters and bring them all the way to Europe when there are so many safe ports much closer.

[procne]

they should use the same Magic powers libya uses not to take them in.

Sure, so the boat won't be allowed to dock in Italy. So the black people have to actually be dropped into the sea now.
That's because the boat is already italian territory, so those people are already on italian territory and now immigration bureau (or whatever it's called in english) has to handle them now. And for that purpose they have to be brought to harbor.

So what does stop them from dropping them off in libya?

eh... International law does forbid dropping people of unknown citizenship in random countries. You really didn't know that or are you doing this on purpose to annoy me? Those people are on italian boat, which means they're on italian territory. Docking and off-loading them in Libya is basically moving them from italian to libyan territory. Without documents - now that's human trafficking.

A, Not caring that they aren't Libyan.
B, not caring what Libya thinks.

Do you actually read what I write? So you propose that a fishing boat docks without a permission in Libyan port, drops off random people and goes off? And the next thing that happens is the boat being stopped by Libyan police / army, the crew thrown into jail and a major diplomatic incident between Italy and Libya happens.

I'm not going for conspiracy theories - I'm saying Italy should refuse to let those boats come to port.

and if they do, arrest them and jail them for human trafficking.

I'm not saying they should drown, i'm saying they shouldn't be let into italy,

But that's exactly what you are saying. If the boats are not allowed to dock anywhere then it's a clear statement to the crews - "Do NOT help those people. Watch them drown or you're fucked". What else can they do if they're not allowed to dock anywhere?

Not our problem.

"I'm not happy about the current state of things, deal with it. I don't care how you do it.". If you don't care about why this happens then why do you even engage the discussion about why it happens?



Also, so that you have more stuff to not care about, quoting International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, which has been signed by most western countries, Italy included:
http://www.ifrc.org/docs/idrl/I456EN.pdf
Chapter V, regulation 10

"(a) The master of a ship at sea, on receiving a signal from any source that a ship or aircraft or
survival craft thereof is in distress, is bound to proceed with all speed to the assistance of the
persons in distress informing them if possible that he is doing so. If he is unable or, in the special
circumstances of the case, considers it unreasonable or unnecessary to proceed to their assistance,
he must enter in the logbook the reason for failing to proceed to the assistance of the persons in
distress. "


And Brussels Convention on Assistance and Salvage at Sea, which has also been signed by Italy:
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-trea...00001-0780.pdf
Article 11

"Every master is bound, so far as he can do so without serious danger to
his vessel, her crew and passengers, to render assistance to everybody, even
though an enemy, found at sea in danger of being lost."

So, any ships sailing under italian flag, are obliged, in the international waters, to save anyone in danger, as long as it doesn't create a danger for the boat itself. By taking rescued people on

[ranzino]

But it doesnt say: you are entitled to drop them in italy and stray as far as possible from any other landside.

[procne]

But it doesnt say: you are entitled to drop them in italy and stray as far as possible from any other landside.

I already said it 2 times at least. They can't drop them in Libya. Because:

1) Libyan authorities will not allow them into a port, or will not allow the non-italian crew to leave the ship.
2) They can't land on the shore, because they are ships, not rowboats (I doubt they would be allowed into Libyan territorial waters anyway)
3) Attempt to drop them into water near Libyan coast would result in a melee fight.

If they are an italian ship then they're able to dock in Italy only. The ships are italian territory, and with no documents those people have to be processed by the immigration office.

Look, if you have some serious idea about how to deal with it, with the current state of international and maritime law then I'm open for discussion. But right now, once those people are on board there's not much that can be done. Only if they had Libyan documents, or if they had other country's papers, and that country's embassy in Libya agreed to take them in, they could be dropped off in Libya. If they have none then they have to be taken to the ship's original port and handed over to authorities there.

Right now the most that could be done is avoiding that part of the sea by the commercial / private ships. Which probably won't happen - from what I know those are fishing waters.

[ranzino]

I already said it 2 times at least. They can't drop them in Libya. Because:

1) Libyan authorities will not allow them into a port, or will not allow the non-italian crew to leave the ship.
2) They can't land on the shore, because they are ships, not rowboats (I doubt they would be allowed into Libyan territorial waters anyway)
3) Attempt to drop them into water near Libyan coast would result in a melee fight.

If they are an italian ship then they're able to dock in Italy only. The ships are italian territory, and with no documents those people have to be processed by the immigration office.

Look, if you have some serious idea about how to deal with it, with the current state of international and maritime law then I'm open for discussion. But right now, once those people are on board there's not much that can be done. Only if they had Libyan documents, or if they had other country's papers, and that country's embassy in Libya agreed to take them in, they could be dropped off in Libya. If they have none then they have to be taken to the ship's original port and handed over to authorities there.

Right now the most that could be done is avoiding that part of the sea by the commercial / private ships. Which probably won't happen - from what I know those are fishing waters.

for non-italian ships: deny them landfall in bella italia once and for all. their ships = their territory.

and in all other cases: remove them from Sicily to the most distant italian rock and process them there and offer them a nice rubberboat back to africa. Or else they will sit on that island forever.

[procne]

for non-italian ships: deny them landfall in bella italia once and for all. their ships = their territory.

I think all Schengen / EU zone countries might be treated as a whole here. And even then I guess majority of the ships in the area is italian.

and in all other cases: remove them from Sicily to the most distant italian rock and process them there and offer them a nice rubberboat back to africa. Or else they will sit on that island forever.

The question is if there are places like this available and if it would be safe. If all those people were dumped in Lampedusa it would probably end really bad for the locals. As for the boat back to Africa - if we're talking about deportation then it's the same legal issues again - where to deport them to? That's the core of the problem - it's impossible to determine citizenship of those people and you can't deport them to where they aren't citizens.

The most plausible solution for now would be to pay some country to take those people in, just like Turkey is paid to hold Syrian refugees. Which would also be stupid - imagine Libya being paid to accept those people and then constantly resending them to Europe, to accept again etc.

[Deleted]

for non-italian ships: deny them landfall in bella italia once and for all. their ships = their territory.

and in all other cases: remove them from Sicily to the most distant italian rock and process them there and offer them a nice rubberboat back to africa. Or else they will sit on that island forever.

First they damage the ship so it start sinking so you have to save them. So how will you house and feed tens of thousands on a rock? Tell me more about the practical plans about your rock? Who pay? Shall they have healthcare, and if so how much? What do you say to the local who do not want a refugee camp on there rock.....

If it was so easy it would have already been done..... Sometimes I wish we did as Australia "bribe" a third world country to send all "refuges" (economic imigrants) there... that place is safe so we do not feel bad about it, and only take in refuges from real refuge camps.

[bufferunderrun]

What I am saying is Europe has to do more in discouraging African Migrants from risking their lives in leaky boats
and crossing the Med.

There needs to be a bit of a deterrence from making the crossing..

You must be pleased that 2000 people crossing the Med have died so far.

yes europe need to do more the first thing is to make sure no corporations from europe are exploiting african countries raw material resources, the second is to stop supporting wars directly like Syria or Libya or by selling weapons, third stopping doing business with peoples like Mugabe and last by making any effort to strike down thing like the tribal/ethnic war in sud sudan.

[JohnBrown1917]

Speaking of what happend...


https://twitter.com/MattBinder/statu...46270707228672


oops