Possible future hero classes.

[Teriz]

You really have to go and look up the Priest Lore Teriz the only Priests that are advocating about balance in light and shadow and the Forsaken priests from the Forgotten Shadow cult. They are the only ones. All the other priests in the game are technically pure holy priests and never will try and control the shadow.

You cannot explain stuff with gameplay reasons. Because gameplay reasons are only there to make the game easier to play and limit the diplication of files in the game.
Example : Tauren paladins vs all the other paladins. Gameplay wise they are both paladins with in game holy spells. Lore wise, Tauren paladins aren't even using the holy light, they are using sun light and are sunwalkers and not considered paladins.

Except we have to use gameplay, because that's what the classes are balanced around. If we went on just lore, you could add any class you want to the game and have no overlap problems whatsoever. Warlocks for example could still have metamorphosis, because lore-wise nothing happened to make them lose the spell. Demon Hunters could have Mana-burn because it is one of their original spells from WC3.

Except gameplay-wise Warlocks lost metamorphosis because Blizzard didn't want two classes having the ability to transform into demons. Demon Hunters aren't getting Mana-Burn because being able to harm the resources of other players is OP, and stealing mana from monsters is mostly useless gameplay wise.

Lore-wise Necromancers should have no problem being a class in WoW. Gameplay-wise Death Knights and Warlocks suck up nearly all of their design space, and Blizzard used the Necromancer concept to create Death Knight gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

Holy priests do not use Shadow magic.
Discipline priests do not use Shadow magic, or use a very minor amount.

Holy Priest have Mind Control, which is a shadow ability.

Discipline actually has quite a few Shadow abilities. In fact, a good portion of their talent tree utilizes Shadow abilities.

Shadow priest are Shadow priests (a scattered few, mostly forsaken but also some Dark Irons and Humans who focus entirely on shadow magic). The vast majority of priests in the lore, as notable figures, and among players, are not Shadow priests. Velen is not a shadow priest, he does not use shadow magic.. What is the difference between Prophet Velen and Yrel? Yrel chose to pick up a hammer and fight that way. What is the difference between High Inquisitor Whitemane and Alexandros Mograine? Mograine wears plate and uses the Ashbringer and Whitemane wears robes and uses raw destructive light magic.

Whitemane is not a shadow priest. She does not use any shadow magic, and her entire character is built around the destruction of undead.

I'm going to guess you haven't done the Paladin campaign, because there is literally a priest who helps you out and then decides she'd be able to do more by joining the Silver Hand and becomes a Paladin simply by reciting the oath and switching over from her robes and bow to a set of plate armor and a warhammer.

That's all lore. We're not talking about lore, we're talking about abilities and gameplay, and the theme that arises from those abilities and gameplay.

When it is used to sing or make music. Is Dragon Roar music? No.

No, but that wasn't the argument. The argument was are they using a musical instrument to cause a magical effect. If you're utilizing your voice, you are using an instrument. Its no different than a kid banging on the drums or slamming cymbals together, they're not making music, but they're still using an instrument.

A wine glass is a musical instrument when it is used as one. That doesn't mean drinking a potion out of a wine glass to heal yourself, and playing a lyre to heal yourself are the same thing.

No, because the wine-glass isn't producing sound when you're drinking from it. A Roar is definitely a sound coming from your vocal chords.

[Kagdar]

Except gameplay-wise Warlocks lost metamorphosis because Blizzard didn't want two classes having the ability to transform into demons. Demon Hunters aren't getting Mana-Burn because being able to harm the resources of other players is OP, and stealing mana from monsters is mostly useless.

Lore-wise Necromancers should have no problem being a class in WoW. Gameplay-wise Death Knights and Warlocks suck up nearly all of their design space, and Blizzard used the Necromancer concept to create Death Knight gameplay.

Warlock lost Meta because it didn't go with the design of Demonology to summon countless of demons. It has nothing to do with DH having Meta. That's the way I see it. And considering you still game no proof that Blizz removed Meta from Locks becasue of DH i guess we will endlessly disagree as to why they did.
Again a case of your idea supposedly being "the only one logical". Guess i just gave you a second reason why and you will just dismiss it because you can never admit you might be wrong.

And for Mana-Burn. you should look up PVP talents from DH. namely : Mana break and Mana rift

They removed the old mana burn because it was just too easy to destroy a healer in pvp with it. They gave some alternative mana burn effect to DH in the form of a circle under you target that burst if you stand in it and will do damage and burn mana.
In pve so such thing exist because there is no reason to do so. On the few enemies/boss that actually use mana it would just completely destroy any mechanic involved.

As for Necro, they didn't put them in the game yet. there is nothing saying they will never do so. Unless we have a statement saying Necro will never be implemented in the game we cannot say that gameplay wise they don't exist because DK and Locks. There's always a possibility, except in you head.

[Ielenia]

Except they don't. Priests use Shadow magic. Paladins don't.

Perfect! Give Necromancer a poison spec. DKs don't have a poison spec. No class in the game has a magic spec that deals with poison. Problem solved! Next?

I never advocated for a class to have robot pets. That's Hunter territory.

No? Then what are these:

Clockwork: Robotic minions, Robot suit, Turrets = DPS, Tanking, or Healing

Also there's plenty from the archetype that Engineering doesn't or can't do. Lasers for example isn't in engineering. Robot minions in the vein of Warlock and Hunter pets can't be done in engineering.

and the robots also assist you in a variety of ways throughout the battle

And was in just a simple search. I bet I can find more if I really put my mind to it.

Which is why I said Warcraft 3 Necromancer is the better example for WoW.

That does not follow. The two universes are separate. What you just wrote there is irrelevant. The D2 Necro is a better source of inspiration for the concept because of its poison spec, something that the D3 necro lacks, and something the WoW DK doesn't deal with.

Remind me again what happened to Warlock metamorphosis, and let me know what existing classes are going to have to lose in order to bring a Necromancer into the game as a class.

You know that is completely irrelevant, right? The point is: you're leveling an argument that is one to one the very same argument you used to level against Demon Hunters... and we all know how that turned out.

- - - Updated - - -

I said song AND voice. The voice is considered a musical instrument.

So are actual musical instruments like flutes, violins, guitars, lyras... y'know, actual instruments that are associated with the bard? Also, just because the voice can be used as a musical instrument... it doesn't mean every single sound that is produced by the voice is automatically considered music.

[Teriz]

Perfect! Give Necromancer a poison spec. DKs don't have a poison spec. No class in the game has a magic spec that deals with poison. Problem solved! Next?

Rogues have a poison spec.

And wouldn't ranged poison work exactly like a disease or a curse?

No? Then what are these:

Posts from 4 years ago, before Hunters got mechanical pets.

That does not follow. The two universes are separate. What you just wrote there is irrelevant. The D2 Necro is a better source of inspiration for the concept because of its poison spec, something that the D3 necro lacks, and something the WoW DK doesn't deal with.

The Warcraft 3 universe and the WoW universe aren't separate.

You know that is completely irrelevant, right? The point is: you're leveling an argument that is one to one the very same argument you used to level against Demon Hunters... and we all know how that turned out.

Actually its quite relevant because in those old threads I always stated that Blizzard would never bring in a DH class as long as Warlocks had metamorphosis. Turns out I was correct, Blizzard removed metamorphosis completely from the Warlock class and brought in Demon Hunters.

What do you think Blizzard would remove from DKs and Warlocks to bring in a Necromancer class? Especially considering that Blizzard used the Necromancer concept to create DKs in the first place.

So are actual musical instruments like flutes, violins, guitars, lyras... y'know, actual instruments that are associated with the bard? Also, just because the voice can be used as a musical instrument... it doesn't mean every single sound that is produced by the voice is automatically considered music.

Again, that wasn't the argument. The argument was this; "Is the caster using a musical instrument when utilizing a Roar?" The vocal chords can be considered a musical instrument, so the answer is yes.

- - - Updated - - -

Warlock lost Meta because it didn't go with the design of Demonology to summon countless of demons. It has nothing to do with DH having Meta. That's the way I see it. And considering you still game no proof that Blizz removed Meta from Locks becasue of DH i guess we will endlessly disagree as to why they did.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I hope you see that either way, Warlocks lost meta due to a gameplay reason.

They removed the old mana burn because it was just too easy to destroy a healer in pvp with it. They gave some alternative mana burn effect to DH in the form of a circle under you target that burst if you stand in it and will do damage and burn mana.
In pve so such thing exist because there is no reason to do so. On the few enemies/boss that actually use mana it would just completely destroy any mechanic involved.

Again, gameplay reasons for removal, not lore reasons.

As for Necro, they didn't put them in the game yet. there is nothing saying they will never do so. Unless we have a statement saying Necro will never be implemented in the game we cannot say that gameplay wise they don't exist because DK and Locks. There's always a possibility, except in you head.

As I said, Necromancers were used to create Death Knights, so according to Blizzard, Necromancers (and Runemasters) are already a playable class in the game.

[Hitei]

What do you think Blizzard would remove from DKs and Warlocks to bring in a Necromancer class? Especially considering that Blizzard used the Necromancer concept to create DKs in the first place.

You don't need to remove anything from either spec. There is already enough room there.

Again, that wasn't the argument. The argument was this; "Is the caster using a musical instrument when utilizing a Roar?" The vocal chords can be considered a musical instrument, so the answer is yes.

Please stop lying. Please.

Roaring like a dragon and playing a musical instrument are not thematically similar.

The argument was not "Is the caster using something that could be considered a musical instrument if in a different context and used a different way?"
It was that roaring like a dragon and playing a musical instrument are not thematically similar.

And they aren't. There is nothing thematically similar about them at all. Just like playing a musical instrument is nothing like throwing a flashbang, even though both make use of sound. And just like using a laser on a mech is nothing like using Smite "because they are both light, teehee".

[Teriz]

You don't need to remove anything from either spec. There is already enough room there.

Yes you do because you have two classes doing the same thing; Summoning the undead, spreading some sort of DoT, and utilizing necromantic abilities. You can't even put a range difference on this because Death Knights have ranged abilities, and the UH DK has a lot of ranged abilities and can summon a pretty wide variety of undead minions. Again, we're talking about an existing class that was created from the class you want to put into the game. I just don't believe that that's feasible.

Please stop lying. Please.

The argument was not "Is the caster using something that could be considered a musical instrument if in a different context and used a different way?"
It was that roaring like a dragon and playing a musical instrument are not thematically similar.

And they aren't. There is nothing thematically similar about them at all. Just like playing a musical instrument is nothing like throwing a flashbang, even though both make use of sound.

Except the vocal chords can be considered a musical instrument, and utilizing your voice is playing that instrument.

Which is why there are plenty examples of Bards who don't use physical musical instruments at all. They simply use their voice.

Hearthsinger Forrensten is such an example, and he's actually in WoW.

[Deleted]

@Teriz, I've been reading your posts with more attention than many other posts. You have a good and clear structure in your posts and you reply to the arguments.

The argument you respond to: roaring like a dragon and playing a musical instrument are not thematically similar. Is just waste of time. To exhaustingly evaluate what they say: themitcally similar. The theme here being music. Is the surmise aiming at a definition of what music is? Lets examine the premis. Why would roars and guitars not be music? Rock would certainly not be music, perhaps not even pop or ballads, whereas the vocalist loudly express strong emotions -- atleast not combined with other instruments.

I think Bard is a great idea, that is throughly defined in fantasy lore. It would bring something new to WoW and most importantly not interfere with the other classes skillsets.

[Ielenia]

Rogues have a poison spec.

Not as spellcasting.

And wouldn't ranged poison work exactly like a disease or a curse?

Nope. Damage-dealing abilities that sometimes leave a DoT for ticking damage or debuff.

Posts from 4 years ago, before Hunters got mechanical pets.

Irrelevant, since your words were:

I never advocated for a class to have robot pets.

The Warcraft 3 universe and the WoW universe aren't separate.

They're not. But the Diablo and Warcraft universes are.

Actually its quite relevant because in those old threads I always stated that Blizzard would never bring in a DH class as long as Warlocks had metamorphosis. Turns out I was correct, Blizzard removed metamorphosis completely from the Warlock class and brought in Demon Hunters.

The conclusions may be the same, but your reasoning used to reach said conclusion has not been proven to have been the exact same Blizzard had. For example, there is a perfectly valid case to be argued that Blizzard removed Metamorphosis from Demonology Warlocks because they believed the spec deviated too far from its original theme: mastery and control of demons. Which, amazingly enough, was the same reasoning given by Blizzard:

the core identity of the Demonology Warlock has strayed too far from its roots in recent years. A primary goal for Warlocks in Legion is to accentuate the existing motifs for Affliction and Destruction, while returning Demonology back to its roots of summoning, utilizing, and empowering demons.

Again, that wasn't the argument. The argument was this; "Is the caster using a musical instrument when utilizing a Roar?" The vocal chords can be considered a musical instrument, so the answer is yes.

The answer is only "yes" if you're trying to be obtuse, because when people ask for a musical instrument, they're asking for an actual musical instrument, like a flute, a lyra, a guitar, a violin, etc.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I hope you see that either way, Warlocks lost meta due to a gameplay reason.

Again, gameplay reasons for removal, not lore reasons.

Actually, according to Blizzard, they lost metamorphosis for a theme reason, not gameplay. So, you're wrong in this aspect.

[Amalaric]

Nightstalker Hero class of Hunter and as I have said before... Paladin should have been a Warrior Hero class but it's too late to do anything about it now.

Shadow Hero class of Rogue.

[Ielenia]

Except the vocal chords can be considered a musical instrument, and utilizing your voice is playing that instrument.

Please stop reaching, Teriz. You know full well what people meant when they asked for "musical instruments".

Which is why there are plenty examples of Bards who don't use physical musical instruments at all. They simply use their voice.

Hearthsinger Forrensten is such an example, and he's actually in WoW.

Um... Hearthsinger Forresten has a flute.

[Teriz]

@Teriz, I've been reading your posts with more attention than many other posts. You have a good and clear structure in your posts and you reply to the arguments.

The argument you respond to: roaring like a dragon and playing a musical instrument are not thematically similar. Is just waste of time. To exhaustingly evaluate what they say: themitcally similar. The theme here being music. Is the surmise aiming at a definition of what music is? Lets examine the premis. Why would roars and guitars not be music? Rock would certainly not be music, perhaps not even pop or ballads, whereas the vocalist loudly express strong emotions -- atleast not combined with other instruments.

I think Bard is a great idea, that is throughly defined in fantasy lore. It would bring something new to WoW and most importantly not interfere with the other classes skillsets.

Eh, I disagree. I think the Bard would be better suited for a profession. As a profession a player can craft instruments, write songs, and give petty buffs to people as they leisurely play in the center of cities. That sounds far more appropriate than a Bard swinging a sword at someone while they sing a ballad.

- - - Updated - - -

Not as spellcasting.


Nope. Damage-dealing abilities that sometimes leave a DoT for ticking damage or debuff.

Yeah, but doesn't DK diseases also leave a DoT and/or debuff?

I find it interesting that you're utilizing the D2 Necromancer instead of the D3 Necromancer. Is that because the D3 Necromancer is fairly similar in style to the Death Knight?

Irrelevant, since your words were:

I was talking about in this thread.

The conclusions may be the same, but your reasoning used to reach said conclusion has not been proven to have been the exact same Blizzard had. For example, there is a perfectly valid case to be argued that Blizzard removed Metamorphosis from Demonology Warlocks because they believed the spec deviated too far from its original theme: mastery and control of demons. Which, amazingly enough, was the same reasoning given by Blizzard:

the core identity of the Demonology Warlock has strayed too far from its roots in recent years. A primary goal for Warlocks in Legion is to accentuate the existing motifs for Affliction and Destruction, while returning Demonology back to its roots of summoning, utilizing, and empowering demons.

Yes, and they just happened to realize that at the exact same time when they were planning to release the Demon Hunter class right?

You seriously can't be that gullible.

The answer is only "yes" if you're trying to be obtuse, because when people ask for a musical instrument, they're asking for an actual musical instrument, like a flute, a lyra, a guitar, a violin, etc.

Well know, the answer is only yes because it's true; Vocal music is considered music, and the musical instrument behind that music is vocal chords. There are songs where the singer roars. You never heard Haka war chants? Plenty of roaring in those.

- - - Updated - - -

Um... Hearthsinger Forresten has a flute.

Yeah, and the Jungle Cat has a Pellet rifle, a Mace, a Hunting rifle, a Scimitar, and a bow and arrow.

BTW, that flute is a prime example of why Bard should be a profession.

[Deleted]

Please stop reaching, Teriz. You know full well what people meant when they asked for "musical instruments".


Um... Hearthsinger Forresten has a flute

I'm not taking side. I do think he have some valid arguments, as to why a Bard would make sense. Seeing him being the most proponent to argue in favor of introducing a bard, it's fair to assume people who take his side do it by being penchant of the Bard concept. Certainly would the Bard introduce something, which would not interfere with other skill sets, although it would be a far reach -- it's necessarily not impossible to implement an idea which is seeming out of reach, hence Panda.
Furthermore would the Bard, be able to wield Geomancy. It's a different magical theme, not completly defined or wielded by other classes in game other than NPCs.

Geomancy revolves around nature magic, yet different from shamanism and druidism. Nature magic involves the elements: Air, water, fire and earth. Thus would geomancy draw energies from the elements, by inherently different means than shamanism and druidism. Such concepts would involve manipulating a certain element by not, as follows from shamanism: invoking the spirits; as follows from druidism: having wisdom. Hence, the Bard could wield the elements by ritualistic dancing and singning.

EDIT:

Eh, I disagree. I think the Bard would be better suited for a profession. As a profession a player can craft instruments, write songs, and give petty buffs to people as they leisurely play in the center of cities. That sounds far more appropriate than a Bard swinging a sword at someone while they sing a ballad.

You can disagree, albeit crafting instruments and write songs would be means of wielding power, i.e. magic. Therefor you would be needing to define the concept first and foremost; seeing other professions can provide buffs already -- with respect to harmonisation of game-play and lore . I'm not saying it is impossible, rather I'm suggesting it would require a clarification of a the concept in lore to be appealing as an idea to the community and make sense lore-wise.

[Kagdar]

Yes, and they just happened to realize that at the exact same time when they were planning to release the Demon Hunter class right?

You seriously can't be that gullible.

They realized it after they changed Demo from being a pet based spec into a meta heavy spec and a lot of locks were unhappy about the change and they wanted to spec back into pet based.

No where does it talk about DH, that's only in your head. You are still reading stuff that isn't there and claiming it's the real reason. Guess what, sometimes there is no hidden agenda and they really mean what they write.

[Leviatharan]

Was someone arguing for a Necromancer hero class? And using Demon Hunters stealing Metamorphosis as justification?

Problem there:

The WoW version of the Unholy Death Knight is based off of the WC3 version of the Death Knight, which had the ability to hurl shadow magic, raise undead minions, empower said minions and sacrifice them at the player's leisure. These are all aspects that the Blood and Frost death knight do not have anymore, so Unholy's ability to raise and manipulate the dead is intrinsic to its class identity.

Now, when Demon Hunters were created, Demonology Warlocks were cannibalized for Metamorphosis. At its core, that iteration of Demonology was ripped off of Demon Hunters in the first place, and the devs were able to get back to Demo's pre-Wrath roots by focusing on its Pet aspects.

The reason why this wouldn't work for Necromancers is because cannibalizing the existing aspects of the Necromancer from the Death Knight and attempting to create distinctions therein would not only require Unholy to be reworked from the ground up without its pet control, but also remove the Death Knight's last resemblance to the original class concept.
And, sorry to say, the Death Knight rather supercedes the Necromancer anyway; it was a Hero Class first, and Necromancers are basically mooks in Warcraft.

Furthermore, aside from the abilities Unholy borrowed, the entirety of Necromancer gameplay (summoning and debilitating at range) is basically covered by Warlocks anyway. Reskin all you like (demons to zombies, curses to poisons, green fire to bone spikes, shadow to... shadow) but it's the same at its core.
I could maybe argue having a Blood-based support spec (sacrifice your health to heal others) as being distinctive, but A) that's only one spec rather than a class, B) it has no prior basis in the Warcraft mythos, and C) it still hasn't stolen the name "necromancer" back from DKs.

So say it with me now, kids: Necromancers will never be a thing.

[Hitei]

Was someone arguing for a Necromancer hero class? And using Demon Hunters stealing Metamorphosis as justification?

Problem there:

The WoW version of the Unholy Death Knight is based off of the WC3 version of the Death Knight, which had the ability to hurl shadow magic, raise undead minions, empower said minions and sacrifice them at the player's leisure. These are all aspects that the Blood and Frost death knight do not have anymore, so Unholy's ability to raise and manipulate the dead is intrinsic to its class identity.

Now, when Demon Hunters were created, Demonology Warlocks were cannibalized for Metamorphosis. At its core, that iteration of Demonology was ripped off of Demon Hunters in the first place, and the devs were able to get back to Demo's pre-Wrath roots by focusing on its Pet aspects.

The reason why this wouldn't work for Necromancers is because cannibalizing the existing aspects of the Necromancer from the Death Knight and attempting to create distinctions therein would not only require Unholy to be reworked from the ground up without its pet control, but also remove the Death Knight's last resemblance to the original class concept.
And, sorry to say, the Death Knight rather supercedes the Necromancer anyway; it was a Hero Class first, and Necromancers are basically mooks in Warcraft.

Furthermore, aside from the abilities Unholy borrowed, the entirety of Necromancer gameplay (summoning and debilitating at range) is basically covered by Warlocks anyway. Reskin all you like (demons to zombies, curses to poisons, green fire to bone spikes, shadow to... shadow) but it's the same at its core.
I could maybe argue having a Blood-based support spec (sacrifice your health to heal others) as being distinctive, but A) that's only one spec rather than a class, B) it has no prior basis in the Warcraft mythos, and C) it still hasn't stolen the name "necromancer" back from DKs.

So say it with me now, kids: Necromancers will never be a thing.

Again, you do not need to remove anything from DK or Warlock to make a viable Necromancer class, you do not need to cannibalize any of its abilities.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...88Gz3RRBQ/edit

Also, "removing the Death Knight's last resemblance to the original class concept" means absolutely nothing. As has already been pointed out, the only thing that connects Monks to their WC3 counterpart are two spells, Earth Wind and Fire and Breath of Fire, two abilities that are completely unrelated to the entire rest of the monk kit. Monks as they exist in wow do not exist in WC3.

"Reskin all you like, but it's the same at is core" is true of every single class in the game at a fundamental level. Death knights are just frost, blood and unholy reskinned paladins. Any warlock using sacrifice is just a reskinned mage. Balance druids and shadow priests are just reskinned mages. Mechanical similarity has, and will always be, a dumb argument when all the classes already do it. Throwing fire spells is still throwing fire spells, wether the animation is of a fireball or a waving line of fire via incinerate. Combo points are combo points regardless of if they are called Combo points, Chi, Holy Power or Shadow Orbs.

Eh, I disagree. I think the Bard would be better suited for a profession. As a profession a player can craft instruments, write songs, and give petty buffs to people as they leisurely play in the center of cities. That sounds far more appropriate than a Bard swinging a sword at someone while they sing a ballad.

If you want to completely ignore the entire history of the archetype, sure. And a rogue would be better suited for a profession as well. Where you can steal from NPCs, brew poisons people can put on their weapons and open lockboxes. That sounds far more appropriate than a thief swinging a sword at someone while they steal things.

Well know, the answer is only yes because it's true; Vocal music is considered music, and the musical instrument behind that music is vocal chords. There are songs where the singer roars. You never heard Haka war chants? Plenty of roaring in those.

I'm glad we agree. Vocal MUSIC is music. Roaring like a Dragon is not music. There are SONGS wherein a singer roars. The key word there is song, not roar. Do you know what else can be put in a song? Gunshots. Thunder. Lightbulbs breaking. None of those are musical until they are used for a musical purpose or put in a song.

Is a warrior roaring a song when they Dragon Roar? No.
Is the warrior Dragon Roaring to music? No.
Is there anything musical at all about a warrior using the Dragon Roar ability? No.

BTW, that flute is a prime example of why Bard should be a profession.

And Engineering is a prime example of why Tinkers are already a profession. Except as you constantly point out, that's not really true. The flute in any player's hand just makes nearby allies dance and does not effect them beyond that, and has a 5 minute cooldown. The flute in the hands of a bard (Forresten) acts exactly like the CLASS abilities, fear, sap and Ice trap... incapacitating an enemy player for 8 seconds.

[Deleted]

We simply won't get bard or necromancer.
Next classes are either tinker or nightstalker-ish class.

I'm just praying for subraces being the main new hook of the expansion.

[Hitei]

I'm just praying for subraces being the main new hook of the expansion.

I don't understand why anyone would want alternate skin colors and a few new features and hairstyles over new races, mounts, and questing zones.

[Bas Prime]

Like all classes, i have nothing agaisn't, but the Blademaster i have the issue that.

All classes when created have many spells that create a rotation and gameplay for them.

And i can see Arms warrios filling the Rotation just fine, not the entire fantasy of the classe of course, but the filler parts, Wind Walker could be added to talent Trees and it would be one step closer from a actual Blademaster, which is Mirror Force.But every time we see a Blademaster ingame, either they don't have Mirror force, or they use a temporary Mirror force that either just spins in the place or cuts something and disappears.

Its one of the classes that i have a issue, its not that it doesn't have lots of things unexplored, but how it would play.

Also, i understood the comparasion with Blood Dk but its theme is more about Deal damage and recover, the Blademaster to work should work more with Parry and Dodge.

I get you, and I have not written down specific abilities on purpose. Just because I think that is kinda the job of Blizzard and why bother, because in my opinion spells are the least problem. But that is me and I dont mean that in a rude way.
So lets take a look at possible spells. But first there would be the resource problem. What could the BM have as a resource? I would go with something like focus or energy, but also with combo points.
Then, what is the theme of a BM fighting? I would go with fast, quick and strong. When he strikes there wont be growing any grass anymore. So lets take a look at Samuro from hots.
Critical Strike. (critically strike for increased damage) Yeah well, there could be made a spell, that has "critical something" in its name, but its really nothing here to use, maybe BM has a higher crit rate or can build up crits, so that every crit up till the 3rd will double the damge. so first crit 10dmg, second 20 dmg and third 40dmg.
Wind Walk.(Become Stealthed and gain movement speed) Something the Warrior has in no way (but Rogue has) It could be as in HotS a stealth that makes you faster and ends after 20-30 seconds.
Advanced Strikes (Increase Movement Speed when attacking Heroes) Another Ability more suited for HotS (as Critical Stirke) Then again, crits could increase movement speed for 5-8 seconds.
Bladestorm (Become an unstooable whirwind of death) Here we go, one of the prime things that is said to make a BM and the one thing that always is used to say "Allready the Warrior has it so he is a Blademaster. And I always response in telling those people, that Mirror Image is a Mage Spell, so is the Mage a BM? No, by that logic, Warrior is not, but has of course the same ability. Any why not? Warriors are trained to become Blademasters in Orgrimmar. Sure they have some spells, but only the best learn the real deal.
Mirror Image (Create Mirror Images to confuse and attack enemies.) So this is a big one. Very important ability in my opinion. We see this concept used by the Mage and the Monk. I think both ways could work, Monk ability is a bit more fleshed out. The simple mirror image of the Mage could be the Tank / DMG Defense ability be, so that the BM takes less damage because the enemy does not know who to attack. The Monk ability would be my take for the BM, but they would be real copys, not ghosts with different colours.
Illusion Master (Images can be controlled) Would be a talent in my opinion.

I thought about listing all of Samuros abilities but I just summarize the abilities to show a possible way of playing.
Critical Strike would be a theme, so they would happen more frequently as say for other players. But that is a balancing thing.
Also the attacks reduce cooldowns of other abilities. Most prominent ones are Mirror Images.
The Wind Walk stealth mechanic is also very prominent for the BM. He receives more movement speed, more damage and more defense.

So our theme for the damage dealing BM would be speed and crit. So the attacks would build up a crit. Crit chance could decrease the attacks needed for that. Its like a swing timer, but for crits. The 5th attack could be the latest point where the crit happens. But it could happen at the second attack. So some rng because we all love rng.
BM could use stealth more frequently, using it as a dmg cooldown to increase damge or crit chance. But also as a defensive cooldown. Would be a choice (much like vanish)

Our theme for the tank BM would work like this. Since BM goes for the most dangerous target and leads his troops while bolstering their morale (BMs here, we can win this, bit like Paladin giving hope to other fighters)
So the old flag mechanic from the warrior that has been tanken out of the game mostly? Its coming back, BM can use his banner to put in the ground or have it mobile with him, boosting crit chance, reducing damage taking or boosting movement speed (could be a talent choice)
His Mirror Images grant him more evasion, and the damage taken could be reduces (not necassarily at the same time). So a shield wall ability could be the mirror images so the damage is reduces to a third.
Parry Chance would be higher, since (sadly) no shield.
What could make the BM tank different to other tanks? Where the Warrior takes damage to get rage, the BM could use the attack mechanic to increase defense. So using a special attack creates a higher chance of the enemy to miss or for the BM to parry. So BM would be one of the stronger dmg dealing tanks. Blizz seems to go that route today. Of course there needs to be a good balance, and I dont want the BM to be overpowered, but I just wanted to come up with possible abilities and giving a way they play out.

I could see a BM being an advanced class of the Warrior or Rogue (meaning 4th spec) but that would honestly destroy a really great option for a hero class. I think I showed that there could be story, lore, abilities, theme and specs that could work out.

Darktbs

you wrote "every time we see a Blademaster ingame, either they don't have Mirror force, or they use a temporary Mirror force that either just spins in the place or cuts something and disappears", that is true. And that last part could also be a special attack, a short Mirror attack on a special spot. But to you point. Why is that? Did the Demon Hunters on the Black Temple in BC use demon form or eye beam? I think (honestly did they or did they not) they did not. And for the sake of the argument lets pretend if it is otherwise. So the abilities are not in the game because that would take time from other things. That is a lame argument used by me in some way, but that is the point imo. Why create abilities for npcs that are used in 3-5 situations in the game? Creating a new visual for Bladestorm and give it to a BM would fix that. Mankrik in the Southern Barrens would use the new Bladestorm animation instead of the warrior one. I think it is just not fleshed out for those npcs, so we dont see them use it because it is not there. It would be Blizzards part to bring it in the game.
But you mentioned it. There are a loot of times we see Blademasters in action (more then Dark Rangers, Tinkerers and Necromancers). They even made a part of Nagrand WoD "dedicated" to the Blademasters, that was awesome btw.
We have supporting NPCs, granted not in the status of Illidan but I think Chen was not that much of a player before MoP. Lantresor has a pretty nice questline and is known, Mankrik has a bigger questline, starting in Northern Barrens and ending (not really ending) in Southern Barrens. And then there is Samuro the HotS character, missing, not in game, no explanation. Imagine him returning, reuniting him with Chen, Rexxar and Rhokan.
Honestly I see a lot more lore and theme and flair for the Blademaster then any other class I have seen beeing suggested. More then monk, tbh. And so I have to agree with you Darktbs, BM "should work more with Parry and Dodge."

[Teriz]

They realized it after they changed Demo from being a pet based spec into a meta heavy spec and a lot of locks were unhappy about the change and they wanted to spec back into pet based.

Which happened after they began developing the Demon Hunter class.

No where does it talk about DH, that's only in your head. You are still reading stuff that isn't there and claiming it's the real reason. Guess what, sometimes there is no hidden agenda and they really mean what they write.

You mean like when they sabotaged Demonology at the end of WoD?

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to completely ignore the entire history of the archetype, sure. And a rogue would be better suited for a profession as well. Where you can steal from NPCs, brew poisons people can put on their weapons and open lockboxes. That sounds far more appropriate than a thief swinging a sword at someone while they steal things.

The Bard archetype has no history in Warcraft. There's no major lore figure. There's no Bard unit in any WC game.

I'm glad we agree. Vocal MUSIC is music. Roaring like a Dragon is not music. There are SONGS wherein a singer roars. The key word there is song, not roar. Do you know what else can be put in a song? Gunshots. Thunder. Lightbulbs breaking. None of those are musical until they are used for a musical purpose or put in a song.

Is a warrior roaring a song when they Dragon Roar? No.
Is the warrior Dragon Roaring to music? No.
Is there anything musical at all about a warrior using the Dragon Roar ability? No.

Even if you have an issue with Dragon Roar, I also mentioned Intimidating Shout.

Shouts are a part of the Bard archetype. Forresten has a shout ability for example.

And Engineering is a prime example of why Tinkers are already a profession. Except as you constantly point out, that's not really true. The flute in any player's hand just makes nearby allies dance and does not effect them beyond that, and has a 5 minute cooldown. The flute in the hands of a bard (Forresten) acts exactly like the CLASS abilities, fear, sap and Ice trap... incapacitating an enemy player for 8 seconds.

The difference between a Tinker and a Bard in Warcraft is that we have a long history of characters using technology as a weapon. Not only do we have the Goblin Tinker, Goblin Shredders, Gyrocopters, and Siege Tanks from WC3, but we have both Goblin and Gnome faction leaders riding in mechs, we have multiple Tinker characters in WoW such as Gizzlock, Sniggles, Goggles, and the Gnomeregan Tinkerers on Brokenshore, we have major lore characters like Gazlowe and Marin Noggenfogger riding in mechs, and we also have bosses like Blackfuse, Thermaplugg/Omegaplugg, Crushcog, and Steamrigger.


What do we have with the Bard? Hearthsinger Forrensten, a minor boss in Stratholme who has a Warrior Shout ability, a few Hunter abilities, and Lullaby, a sleep spell. Then we have Russell Brower, a homage character for WoW's composer who has a modified Priest spell. Finally, we have a Bard running around the Rogue class hall (or something like that).

There's really no comparison.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, but doesn't DK diseases also leave a DoT and/or debuff?

So do Warlocks leave DoTs. And Mages. And Rogues. And Druids. And Monks. And Warriors. And Priests. Basically every single class leave DoTs and/or debuffs. What's your point?

I find it interesting that you're utilizing the D2 Necromancer instead of the D3 Necromancer. Is that because the D3 Necromancer is fairly similar in style to the Death Knight?

The reason I refer to the D2 Necromancer instead of the D3 Necromancer is self-evident to anyone with an IQ higher than a single digit: it's because it has a whole spec dedicated to poison magic.

I was talking about in this thread.

Ah, so you're moving goal posts. Gotcha.

Yes, and they just happened to realize that at the exact same time when they were planning to release the Demon Hunter class right?

You seriously can't be that gullible.

I dunno. Who should I trust? The game company who, as far as I can recall, has not lied to us, players, yet... or the conspiracy theory from a poster who admitted having agendas in the past and uses dishonesty and double-standards in his arguments?

Well know, the answer is only yes because it's true; Vocal music is considered music, and the musical instrument behind that music is vocal chords. There are songs where the singer roars. You never heard Haka war chants? Plenty of roaring in those.

And it's still dishonesty on your part because you knew full well that they were talking about actual musical instruments, not things that "could be considered" musical instruments.

Yeah, and the Jungle Cat has a Pellet rifle, a Mace, a Hunting rifle, a Scimitar, and a bow and arrow.

Oh goodness, the FAIL in that comparison is astronomical... You realize that, unlike your example, the flute that Hearthsinger Forresten drops is not random loot? Only Hearthsinger Forresten drops that item. Whereas every single item that your example drops, can drop from any other mob of the same level range.

BTW, that flute is a prime example of why Bard should be a profession.

Just like engineering is a prime example why the tinker should remain a profession, right?