Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Khrux]

BM was one of few(if not the only one) that didn't get hit on their t19 2pc, its particularly strong with the new Zoo/Beast Cannon build we're all using and at least for me it significantly outshines vasty "superior" offset pieces.

I think last I checked the 2pc was worth a combined 45ilvl or something like that? In other words if you have even a minor WF/FT on your mythic t19 your likely stuck wearing that 2pc for the entirety of progression. (Because it was never nerfed and is only stronger now with the build we're all using)

They need to nerf the tier and buff BM baseline to compensate, there was no reason why our 2pc slipped under the radar in the 7.2.5 release. We all called it out numerous times that we were getting away with murder, now it shows.

I personally have a major dislike with 6 pieces of my gear being restricted to 2pc+4pc. This in turn also restricts our legendaries, causing Sephuz/Prydaz to rise (both due to the power of 970 secondary stats and the fact we can't wear helm/shoulder/cape/chest/gloves/leg slots)

[Khallid]

I think simming is a flawed way to interpret this trinket. It relies on your group comp, your legendaries (like, are you wearing Prydaz), how good your healers are at raid healing, your ability to not stand in stuff/not having to participate in soaks or mechanics. Seems like this trinket will get better as you get bosses on farm whereas progression or high raid damage fights it will be total shit. There are just too many variables to accurately sim other than the static "reset X number of times per 5 mins" that SimC might be able to accomodate.

Correct, the sims on the Cradle almost don't matter. I've been using it for a bit and it's entirely dependent on the boss you're fighting. Most soaking mechanics will break the stacks very often. Maiden always broke my stacks when I soaked the hammer in heroic. Kil'Jaeden absolutely destroys this trinket with the constant shit you have to soak. I'm not up to Mythic Tomb yet, but I can see the Hydra Shot in mythic is likely going to destroy it as well. Technically it should work fine for bosses where you're supposed to dodge the mechanics... assuming you do dodge them.

It is prefectly viable for farm fights without soaking boss mechanics, at least in heroic.

[Dracodraco]

Correct, the sims on the Cradle almost don't matter. I've been using it for a bit and it's entirely dependent on the boss you're fighting. Most soaking mechanics will break the stacks very often. Maiden always broke my stacks when I soaked the hammer in heroic. Kil'Jaeden absolutely destroys this trinket with the constant shit you have to soak. I'm not up to Mythic Tomb yet, but I can see the Hydra Shot in mythic is likely going to destroy it as well. Technically it should work fine for bosses where you're supposed to dodge the mechanics... assuming you do dodge them.

It is prefectly viable for farm fights without soaking boss mechanics, at least in heroic.

I'd personally never use it. It's really not worth the effort. Just think about it for a second -
A 900 Cradle has at best:
2300 constant agi
1180 constant haste.

A 900 Statstick of any kind has at best:
2063 constant agi.
1180 secondary.

Keep in mind that Haste will never be our best stat for either BM or MM (which I assume the majority of people that'd consider using it are; There are supposedly better options for surv). That means that a mastery statstick (or crit if beast cannon, potentially) will gain some ground just by virtue of being a better secondary.
Second, I can't think of any mythic fight where this wouldn't fall off; Even on an encounter like Harjatan where you avoided stacking, it'd fall off during the frost-AOE phase unless you sit in turtle to counter the final hit. It also needs 10 seconds to wind up each time you lose it. I can't EVER see a mere 237 agility outweighting the downsides (bad secondary stat, loses all agility when hitting 50%, needs 10 second to build up to max) of this trinket on any real encounter. I'd argue it's probably not even going to outshine a normal statstick in most heroic encounters. And with things such as the Engine of Eradication, Jaws, and Tarnished sentinel medallion all available from the same raid, this is really not something you want to bother using.

[7seti]

Is the Icy Veins BM guide out of date? It still recommends the Mark of the Claw neck enchant. Is that really better than the +600 mastery one?

[madokbro]

I don't think I should open a new thread for this. Let me just ask it here: I have CoF(880) + Arcano Crystal (885), this combo sims higher for BM than Cradle(910) + Sentinel (905) for some reason. I don't understand, are these low level trinkets really that OP? When exactly and for what should I replace them?

Feels weird running around with a 885 stat stick.

[Deleted]

I don't think I should open a new thread for this. Let me just ask it here: I have CoF(880) + Arcano Crystal (885), this combo sims higher for BM than Cradle (910) + Sentinel (905) for some reason. I don't understand, are these low level trinkets really that OP? When exactly and for what should I replace them?

Feels weird running around with a 885 stat stick.

My 880 arcano sims better than my 930 sentinel with socket. So there you go ... ill fly to argus with this equipped

[ydraw]

I don't think I should open a new thread for this. Let me just ask it here: I have CoF(880) + Arcano Crystal (885), this combo sims higher for BM than Cradle(910) + Sentinel (905) for some reason. I don't understand, are these low level trinkets really that OP? When exactly and for what should I replace them?

Feels weird running around with a 885 stat stick.

Arcanocrystal has been massively OP all expansion. Only Bloodthirsty instinct is better at the same ilvl.

[satimy]

Sentinel with true shot up is insane

[Gaaz]

Is the Icy Veins BM guide out of date? It still recommends the Mark of the Claw neck enchant. Is that really better than the +600 mastery one?

I suspect that Claw is better for the stomp / owtp build in general. Mastery enchant might be viable if you ditch the T19 bonuses altogether and go for DF/BF. But you should not really do that, unless you have extreme luck with forged gear from ToS. At least 2pT19 bonus is here to stay for a long time when it comes to BM.

[Pwnykeg1337]

I suspect that Claw is better for the stomp / owtp build in general. Mastery enchant might be viable if you ditch the T19 bonuses altogether and go for DF/BF. But you should not really do that, unless you have extreme luck with forged gear from ToS. At least 2pT19 bonus is here to stay for a long time when it comes to BM.

my hunter sims highest with chest/belt and only T20, i cant get 2pc/4pc to beat my highest ilvl gear, there is a 20-30k difference, and im only 919 with high ilvl trinkets, BiS trinks i have now bring me down to 915 and 2pc/4pc still is a loss, at least on single target, but playing i didnt notice a difference in cleave fights either

1.079m dps with DF/BF and T20, 1.041m dps with 2pc/4pc (35% crit)

[HAK]

my hunter sims highest with chest/belt and only T20, i cant get 2pc/4pc to beat my highest ilvl gear, there is a 20-30k difference, and im only 919 with high ilvl trinkets, BiS trinks i have now bring me down to 915 and 2pc/4pc still is a loss, at least on single target, but playing i didnt notice a difference in cleave fights either

1.079m dps with DF/BF and T20, 1.041m dps with 2pc/4pc (35% crit)

I'm simming higher DPS with 4PT20 Belt/Chest than 2P4P Ring/Belt with my current setup.

That might be attributed to the low crit I have for the latter build. No matter how much I try to push it, I can't cross 27% with my current gear. I guess there is this unjustified fear of equipping low ilvl gear with higher crit as well. It doesn't feel right really having this 2P superior to other high ilvl items as already stated by many.

To sum it, the only right answer you seek is through personal sims.

[Dracodraco]

So, gotten some gear on my hunter now, picked up the Sentinel trinket tonight, and went to sim it - I'm very curious if the sims on the front page is somehow outdated. In them, on a single target fight, you're approximating a 915 sentinel to a 925 arcano. Meanwhile, when I sim it against my 880 arcano using my armory (https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracodraco) on a pure single target fight with huntsmaster+boots legendary, the 880 comes out ~15k dps ahead of my 915 sentinel. Any reasonable reason you can figure out? Trinket is being used (bolt and blast are 3.6 and 1.7% of the breakdown, respectively), so it's not just being a bad statstick.

[Ravenzedd]

So, gotten some gear on my hunter now, picked up the Sentinel trinket tonight, and went to sim it - I'm very curious if the sims on the front page is somehow outdated. In them, on a single target fight, you're approximating a 915 sentinel to a 925 arcano. Meanwhile, when I sim it against my 880 arcano using my armory (https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracodraco) on a pure single target fight with huntsmaster+boots legendary, the 880 comes out ~15k dps ahead of my 915 sentinel. Any reasonable reason you can figure out? Trinket is being used (bolt and blast are 3.6 and 1.7% of the breakdown, respectively), so it's not just being a bad statstick.

Noticed similar. Replaced 860 arcano with a 930 sentinel, and the DPS gain was only something like 8-10k. Which is FAR less than the sheet would suggest, and I can see how a slightly higher arcano and slightly lower sentinel would not really be a gain at all.

[Keren]

arcano doesn't scale that well with item level, its just strongly itemized from the get go - compared to sentinel, which does scale pretty good with your gear, rotation and its own itemlevel

[Ravenzedd]

arcano doesn't scale that well with item level, its just strongly itemized from the get go - compared to sentinel, which does scale pretty good with your gear, rotation and its own itemlevel

I'm pretty sure everybody is aware arcano scales poorly with ilevel, that doesn't stop the fact that the trinket sheet seems to be quite far off in actual value comparisons.

[Keren]

oh, yes, the list on the first entry.. sorry I didn't saw that there is a different list..

Replaced 860 arcano with a 930 sentinel, and the DPS gain was only something like 8-10k.

using this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=340651414
860 arcano = 103698 dps
930 sentinel = 114836 dps
difference = 11138 dps, seems fine to me and matches your observation

Meanwhile, when I sim it against my 880 arcano using my armory (https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracodraco) on a pure single target fight with huntsmaster+boots legendary, the 880 comes out ~15k dps ahead of my 915 sentinel.

880 arcano = 115698 dps
915 sentinel = ~105113 dps
arcano is about 10585 dps over sentinel

I would assume that the list in OP's post is from pre nerf sentinel

[Deleted]

I have a question about the sentinel trinket, especially for BM. It does scale with Bestial Wrath...but do you have to use it while BW is already up for the higher dmg (for the whole 20seconds?), or can you use the trinket and the dmg is higher during BW is up (for 15seconds)?!
Maybe for these occasions when you can use sentinel but BW has 5 seconds CD left

[Effinhunter]

I've been offline for a couple of weeks due to travel in Portugal. I plan to resim pretty much everything over the coming week. I'm sure there have been module/item changes over the past couple weeks.

[nidosarg]

Can you do a check of the build with the Boots and AotB for BM too? Was really insane in aoe like Mistress, DB+DF+Volley+Aotb+Sephuz+Boots

[Effinhunter]

Can you do a check of the build with the Boots and AotB for BM too? Was really insane in aoe like Mistress, DB+DF+Volley+Aotb+Sephuz+Boots

Sephuz is really difficult to sim correctly. I could use a tabard for a perfect uptime, as I do in the single target sims, but this will be a bit forced. I would like to get everything resimmed as is just to see where we stand, and then make upgrades (possibly one with settings like you are talking about), once I get everything updated.

Anyway, I've restarted the BM, MM and SV single target trinket sims. Hopefully, they'll be done some time tonight / early tomorrow morning.

- - - Updated - - -

5. Trinkets Breakdown

----- MM -----

New: MM, 56 traits, Talents (1103013), 915/945 gear, 2pc/4pc tier: Single Target
Old: MM, 56 traits, Talents (1103013), 915/945 gear, 2pc/4pc tier: Single Target

Still rerunning BM and SV sims.

- - - Updated - - -

----- BM -----

New: BM, 56 traits, Talents (2202012), 915/945 gear, 2pc/4pc tier: Single Target
Old: BM, 56 traits, Talents (2202012), 915/945 gear, 2pc/4pc tier: Single Target

----- SV -----

New: SV, 56 traits, Talents (3101032), 915/945 gear, 2pc/4pc tier: Single Target
Old: SV, 56 traits, Talents (3101032), 915/945 gear, 2pc/4pc tier: Single Target

- - - Updated - - -

4. Talents Breakdown

----- BM -----

###### BM No Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### BM Huntmaster Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


----- MM -----

###### MM No Legendary ######

MM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### MM Huntmaster Legendary ######

MM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source



----- SV -----

###### SV No Legendary ######

SV top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


- - - Updated - - -

Gear Scaling

----- BM -----

BM scaling, Single Target, 915/945 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


BM scaling, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


BM scaling, Single Target, 940/970 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


----- MM -----

MM scaling, Single Target, 915/945 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


MM scaling, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


MM scaling, Single Target, 940/970 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


- - - Updated - - -

1. Legendaries Breakdown

* Equip 2p T19, 4pc T20 wherever possible. If legendary combinations get in the way, this is of course not possible.

----- BM -----

BM legendaries, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


BM legendary combos, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)



----- MM -----

MM legendaries, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


MM legendary combos, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV legendaries, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


SV legendary combos, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


- - - Updated - - -

############################

3. Artifacts Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 58 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/960 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 58 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/960 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 58 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/960 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


- - - Updated - - -

############################

2. Tier Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


- - - Updated - - -

That's all I have for now. Will have to look into other stuff this weekend (feel free to make suggestions or offer your own sims)