Is PVP in WoW really on the decline?

[G3istly]

I mean, ranked pvp has been declining for a very long time and blizzard doesnt seem to care. Seems like they are more focused on keeping the casuals happy in pvp. Oh well.

How stupid do you have to be to sit there and blame casuals for Blizzard's incompetence? Nothing in Legion has been done for the sake of casual players.

[Caolela]

I don't understand how molesting classes = profit. If classes were as great as they were in MoP I'd be playing 15 hours per day again.

For one thing, it causes continuous FotM rerolling, which means more time-in-game. If your fave spec gets nerfed to the basement you'll want one of the top 10 or so specs, especially if you want to be picked up for higher end content, so you spend time leveling/gearing those instead of your main that you've already spent a lot of time/effort/gold on. Then those FotMs you just played for a few months get nerfed so you roll something else.

If they had reasonably balanced specs (say within single-digit percentages) instead of 15-20+% differences from the OP specs to the worst, people would tend to play their one or two fave toons most.

- - - Updated - - -

Here you go DF, just another example of hundreds I've seen during Legion on the PTR forum:


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20758245979

The new Netherlight Crucible idea is fine, but if we have to grind as much AP as it looks like we might, people are going to quit in droves. It's looking like we'll probably need something in range of AP equivalent to 80 on our weapons for finishing the new Netherlight Crucible, which even at AK 50 is several months of AP farming. It's not even optional as the crucible is going to give us powerful traits in each relic and weapon lvls on our Artifacts. It's just going to be another absurd grind doing the same dungeons, world quests, and raids we've been doing the entire expansion. Not only that, but the current implementation is going to make traits we get complete RNG and we'll basically be rerolling relics over and over to get useful traits. Getting a BiS relic, only to have it give utility traits, is the stupidest thing I've seen yet this expansion.

Blizzard, you need to let Artifact Power die with 7.2.5. and just let the crucible be time-gated to open over the course of 7.3 to 7.3.5 when you release the raid. If we have to grind AP again, the amount of people who quit or take breaks is going to be insurmountable for many raiding guilds. A lot of people I know or raid with have been fed up with the whole AP system as it is neither fun or exciting. Many people have stopped working on AP, and with news of this new crucible system that's going to bump AP requirements way, way up in weapon level, they're looking at how far behind they are in AP that it's making them want to stop playing or people feel guilty that they're playing other games when they know they should be grinding AP. I've already lost raiders and friends who stopped playing in previous tiers because they have to spend so much time grinding AP. Why are you pushing so hard on this completely uninteresting grind that punishes people who are burnt out on it?

After the first tier of raids in Legion, it should have been pretty obvious that people did not want to spend so much of their free time grinding AP, but the devs have doubled down on it over and over. In 7.2, it was absolutely fine, as hitting concordance took a few weeks. If AP gets recalculated so that finishing the Netherlight Crucible takes a few weeks, then people will probably be ok with doing some more AP, but if we have to deal with a grind that extends 3, 4, 5 months, then people are going to throw in the towel as it's just not worth it.

and...

Exactly the point i have been trying to make to them. In no way is the average player going to do this, and theres a real high chance that its so dang complicated, they will not do it anyways. So what is blizz doing? Giving the raiders something to grind so THEY stay logged in longer so their new measurement of the games health can get a bump before the report?

Got news for em, the subs are at an all time low, and when this grind is rolled out(they lied to EVERYONE when they said Concordance was the last AP grind and we should forget about trying to do it) and now this?

Never going to fly. I mean as i said in another post, theres no one testing the PTR, its a wasteland. Feedback is not being acknowledged for many days/weeks and this is going to be the nail in Legions coffin. They just are not learning.

I honestly think, and i really mean this, Blizz is trying to ruin the game so they can back out of future development and let it got F2P, or just die out. These decisions are not even logical anymore with most players going back to college and the older ones have already quit.

Very typical of what's been on every PTR. Blizz does X, Y, and Z and says, "Fuck You lol".

[RelaZ]

I don't understand how molesting classes = profit. If classes were as great as they were in MoP I'd be playing 15 hours per day again.

Disregard Caelola's reply, he doesn't understand you're talking about class design and not balance.

The reason they molested classes is because of this mentality:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...amage-buttons/
https://twitter.com/warcraftdevs/sta...827712?lang=en

Basically Blizzard's PvP design team has the mentality that TBC class design and levels of CC/utility was actually good (it wasn't, the only reason it was good at the time was due to us never having seen anything better). Basically the PvP design of this expansion has been revolving around what PvErs want (no cc/utility -> outplays, only a mongo pve dps race), not what PvPers want.

(What's funny is the current design has even less CC/utility than TBC, holy priest + orc relentless is proof enough)

How stupid do you have to be to sit there and blame casuals for Blizzard's incompetence? Nothing in Legion has been done for the sake of casual players.

Everything (in regards to PvP) has been done to:

A) Keep players on the treadmill no matter what (always a new insane AP farm every 7.x.0 patch, concordance, no cap on ilvl/traits in pvp etc)
B) Make casuals/PvErs happy when they PvP (ie cater to the "I can't use my toolkit so I get CC'd forever, OP neeeerf" whine)

[Caolela]

Disregard Relaz' reply. He doesn't understand how balance affects class design, and vice versa. Also I didn't even bother to get into how pruning and making the classes like those in a MOBA affects their bottom line.

[RelaZ]

Disregard Relaz' reply. He doesn't understand how balance affects class design, and vice versa. Also I didn't even bother to get into how pruning and making the classes like those in a quasi-MOBA affects their bottom line.

You're actually so stupid that you don't understand how class design and balancing are two separate issues.

They could have great class design (MoP, WotLK or whatever fits your taste) and still do whacky balancing (ie number tuning) to get $$ from FOTM rerolling, only they'd get more $$ because the actual playerpool would be bigger because the actual core gameplay would be good.

Again, class design =/= balance, they are separate and not related.

Their problem is they gravely missjudged just how much the PvP playerbase would dislike Legion class design.

Also I thought you ignored me so you wouldn't have to actually win arguments instead of going into your little love triangle with rda, kagthul and mafic. It's pretty astonishing how you even think you qualify in that group haha. Those guys are actually good at discussing, have actual arguments and know how to back themselves up, somewhat - unlike you, who manages to get banned on a regular basis.

[Nuba]

It doesn't matter. People who don't like WoW PvP stop playing, and people who do like WoW PvP keep playing. Statistics shouldn't matter to anyone but the developers.

Go to any WoW discord, and there's an active PvP channel with rated discussion and stuff, and none of this bullshit doomsaying. If you aren't affected by any long(er) queue times, the PvP isn't dead.

this is so wrong I can't even begin to tell.
I used to frequently be part of many of those "channels", and I don't remember a single high-rated RBG team not saying WoW PvP was on a massive decline, that everyone was quitting and that there are almost noone to play with/against anymore.

[Osmeric]

Their problem is they gravely missjudged just how much the PvP playerbase would dislike Legion class design.

I think the big problem with Legion PvP isn't the class designs, it's the reward design. PvP is not sufficiently rewarding for most players.

You mentioned TBC class design, but remember that TBC PvP is where the term "welfare epics" got its start.

[Caolela]

You're actually so stupid that you don't understand how class design and balancing are two separate issues.

They could have great class design (MoP, WotLK or whatever fits your taste) and still do whacky balancing (ie number tuning) to get $$ from FOTM rerolling, only they'd get more $$ because the actual playerpool would be bigger because the actual core gameplay would be good.

Again, class design =/= balance, they are separate and not related.

Their problem is they gravely missjudged just how much the PvP playerbase would dislike Legion class design.

Also I thought you ignored me so you wouldn't have to actually win arguments instead of going into your little love triangle with rda, kagthul and mafic. It's pretty astonishing how you even think you qualify in that group haha. Those guys are actually good at discussing, have actual arguments and know how to back themselves up, somewhat - unlike you, who manages to get banned on a regular basis.

I get "banned on a regular basis" (but not regular, thx) because I tell dipshits in Gen OT and political threads what's actually going on just like I do here. They don't like it and whine to mods, or the mods themselves are heavily politically biased. Ask me if I GAF.

I've ripped you and your lover Krassz new ones so many times it isn't funny, but got tired of the constant baseless denials and delusions. That's why you both have been on ignore. Even though you know that, you cheap shot people thinking someone won't see it when any normal person wouldn't mention them again.

Sorry derpy one but they're interrelated. You can have "balance" out of whack and decent class design, but you can't say specs are designed that well if they're OP or UP. Simple numbers tuning does not necessarily solve many other problems like utility, CC, pets, mobility, nor does adding or deleting an ability or how it functions necessarily destroy balance, or it can destroy balance. It takes both considered together to make classes good.

[Pickynerd]

Yes.

Real question is how long will the game last before becoming the cancer that is F2P?

[Kagthul]

That's because a lot of the shit causals complain about are not actual problems with the game but with their skill level, thus the "git guud" responses. When Blizzard listens to casuals when it comes to class design we get expansions like WoD and Legion.

All the changes in Legion were in response to DEATHMATCHBAWKS Trybads (I mean, uh... "Arena Pros") requests.

They've long maintained that PvP shouldn't be about gear. Blizzard "removed gear" from PvP.

They've long maintained that you should "PvP to be the best and you shouldn't need rewards". Blizz removed compelling rewards.

They've long complained that the classes were OP/UP/had too much of X and not enough of Y. Blizz removed utility and options from classes.

Those are all responses to "Pros".

Those are what is responsible for the implosion of the PvP scene right now.

Its not the casuals, who by and large made up the VAST majority of the ladder.... and are now gone.

Blame Blizz, and blame the Tryhards.

[RelaZ]

All the changes in Legion were in response to DEATHMATCHBAWKS Trybads (I mean, uh... "Arena Pros") requests.

No. They weren't. They're in response to the casual/PvE/noob complaints. Anyone with insight into the general opinion of high rated players know this (just go to arenajunkies and ask them what they think of Legion class design lol).

They've long maintained that PvP shouldn't be about gear. Blizzard "removed gear" from PvP.

No, PvP tryhards generally want gear to matter (because they're tryhards who play 8hrs+/day). In general it's casuals who don't want to be at a gear disadvantage. I've seen you mention several times that you loved how you could have the same gear as people who did endgame PvP had in WoD.

Also, no one in the PvP scene (random battleground, arena players, high rateds or rbgers) wanted Blizzard to remove PvP gear the way they did, only PvErs.

People were generally pretty happy with WoD/MoP gearing in the high rated camp.

They've long maintained that you should "PvP to be the best and you shouldn't need rewards". Blizz removed compelling rewards.

No, wtf? No one has argued that they should remove rewards. Are you dense? All that's ever been argued (especially from casuals) is that you shouldn't be at a disadvantage because you're low rated. Top rated PvPers mostly see no problem with the gated reward system of say WotLK.

They've long complained that the classes were OP/UP/had too much of X and not enough of Y. Blizz removed utility and options from classes.

No. The "too much CC/utility NEEEERF" complaint is in general a casual/noob complaint. If you seriously believe the "omg so OP remove XYZ" complaint comes from the competitive high rated players you're stupid.

I've even linked an example in this thread where the high rated PvP community complained about the pruning pre-Legion release. The high rated PvP community has all but vanished since Legion launched (it's not only the casuals, percentage-wise I'd guess they've probably quit more than the casuals even).

Also, class design =/= balance.

Those are all responses to "Pros".

Those are what is responsible for the implosion of the PvP scene right now.

Its not the casuals, who by and large made up the VAST majority of the ladder.... and are now gone.

Blame Blizz, and blame the Tryhards.

No, the changes in Legion were all caused due to listening to complaints from bads/casuals/PvErs. Turns out a PvE DPS race where "pillars are stupid, CC is stupid" and the "fight me like a man" attitude stands above all else makes for extremely poor gameplay, who could've guessed!

The problem is you think that the people who come with these retarded suggestions are from the "arena" camp, whereas in reality they're generally from the casual side, with very low ratings to bolster, if any at all. Your camp, that is.

I'll just end with this (again): http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...amage-buttons/

Trust me, Legion is not what the competitive PvP scene wanted or asked for, especially not after WoD lol.

- - - Updated - - -

I get "banned on a regular basis" (but not regular, thx) because I tell dipshits in Gen OT and political threads what's actually going on just like I do here. They don't like it and whine to mods, or the mods themselves are heavily politically biased. Ask me if I GAF.

I've ripped you and your lover Krassz new ones so many times it isn't funny, but got tired of the constant baseless denials and delusions. That's why you both have been on ignore. Even though you know that, you cheap shot people thinking someone won't see it when any normal person wouldn't mention them again.

Sorry derpy one but they're interrelated. You can have "balance" out of whack and decent class design, but you can't say specs are designed that well if they're OP or UP. Simple numbers tuning does not necessarily solve many other problems like utility, CC, pets, mobility, nor does adding or deleting an ability or how it functions necessarily destroy balance, or it can destroy balance. It takes both considered together to make classes good.

You are actually so stupid. Yes, you can say specs are designed incredibly well even if they're OP or UP, they just need numbers tuning. That's why balance and class design are separate things.

A spec can be super fun to play, well designed, but also perform incredibly bad - because it's numbers are not good enough and vice versa.

You haven't ripped anyone new ones, ever. And me and Krassz are not lovers at all, we've had many arguments and discussions on here. But unlike you he actually knows how to argue.

I'll just leave a link(s) to the extended explanation as to how you're wrong regarding balance & class design here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post46405954
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post46377309

Am I back on ignore yet? Can't handle losing the argument?

[rda]

All the changes in Legion were in response to DEATHMATCHBAWKS Trybads (I mean, uh... "Arena Pros") requests.

They've long maintained that PvP shouldn't be about gear. Blizzard "removed gear" from PvP.

They've long maintained that you should "PvP to be the best and you shouldn't need rewards". Blizz removed compelling rewards.

They've long complained that the classes were OP/UP/had too much of X and not enough of Y. Blizz removed utility and options from classes.

Those are all responses to "Pros".

Those are what is responsible for the implosion of the PvP scene right now.

Its not the casuals, who by and large made up the VAST majority of the ladder.... and are now gone.

Blame Blizz, and blame the Tryhards.

I disagree.

I think it is much, much, much simpler.

They removed PVP gear and made all gear PVE because having just PVE gear is less work. (Now, I mean this in a good sense as well as in a bad sense. If one system can do the job of two systems, without drawbacks, it is better to have one system. One system is easier to fix and extend, you'd have more time for building on top of it, etc. This is genuinely good. But that's only provided that one system really can do the job of two systems, without drawbacks - they failed completely in the drawbacks department.)

They did templates because they thought that would be less work.

They pruned abilities because of a mess of multiple reasons, but basically just because they always mess with abilities. They plain like to do it - some of this is likely on purpose, to give people something fresh which will keep them interested, but the other very significant part is that messing with abilities / talents has a big and visible effect while costing next to no development time, it is damn easy to do, you spend 90% of the time sitting in chairs lazily thinking how to rearrange things, looking all important and profound (while being none). Etc.

Sum total, I think that they were just making it easier for themselves. That should have made their systems more manageable and more amenable to good changes. But since they know so little about what is and what isn't important for PVP, since they are always so high in their cloud castles, they botched it.

Blame just Blizzard, not the Tryhards. (Nor "the Casuals". Because some people like to do *that*. Ugh...)

[Caolela]

You are actually so stupid. Yes, you can say specs are designed incredibly well even if they're OP or UP, they just need numbers tuning. That's why balance and class design are separate things.

A spec can be super fun to play, well designed, but also perform incredibly bad - because it's numbers are not good enough and vice versa.

You haven't ripped anyone new ones, ever. And me and Krassz are not lovers at all, we've had many arguments and discussions on here. But unlike you he actually knows how to argue.

I'll just leave a link(s) to the extended explanation as to how you're wrong regarding balance & class design here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post46405954
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post46377309

Am I back on ignore yet? Can't handle losing the argument?

I find that after a reasonable effort, some people are still like talking to a turnip or have egos bigger than China and can't admit they're mistaken. Often times both.

Like you and your GF Krassz, who has never made a post to me that didn't contain some completely fabricated bullshit - and you call that, "he actually knows how to argue"??

Holy jumping christ. ~8^ /

Both of you've had numerous beatdowns and now have raging hard-ons, as evidenced by your post quoting me when I wasn't talking to you and you were ignored, your last post, and to other people who've proven you wrong.

Before I go, I'll take just one issue from Watcher that you linked, that apparently you've lapped up in typical fanboy fashion:

Finally, I'd like to respond to the idea that this is all about increasing accessibility for new players at the expense of veterans. It is not. The new player experience has always been fairly streamlined, with only a handful of abilities available, and new ones meted out over the course of many levels. We don't think that the existence or absence of a cooldown or CC tool at level 75 has any impact on a new player's ability to approach and enjoy the game.

What an enormous load of PR crapola. He knows damned well what people mean when they say "new players", which means people that haven't played WoW or PvP are still new to it for some time at max level with max abilities, not just during leveling. The pruning at all levels but mainly at max level is what people have been pissed about - after they would have all of their abilities. A pathetic attempt to excuse their "class design" and shitting on specific playstyle and outplay opportunities we once had.



So yes, back on ignore.

[docterfreeze]

Disregard Caelola's reply, he doesn't understand you're talking about class design and not balance.

The reason they molested classes is because of this mentality:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...amage-buttons/
https://twitter.com/warcraftdevs/sta...827712?lang=en

Basically Blizzard's PvP design team has the mentality that TBC class design and levels of CC/utility was actually good (it wasn't, the only reason it was good at the time was due to us never having seen anything better). Basically the PvP design of this expansion has been revolving around what PvErs want (no cc/utility -> outplays, only a mongo pve dps race), not what PvPers want.

(What's funny is the current design has even less CC/utility than TBC, holy priest + orc relentless is proof enough)



Everything (in regards to PvP) has been done to:

A) Keep players on the treadmill no matter what (always a new insane AP farm every 7.x.0 patch, concordance, no cap on ilvl/traits in pvp etc)
B) Make casuals/PvErs happy when they PvP (ie cater to the "I can't use my toolkit so I get CC'd forever, OP neeeerf" whine)

So because the script slayers struggled to find a use for an ability, and because the devs literally forgot the ability was in the game when designing encounters, they remove it and and make us PvPers have to spend an honor talent point just so we can have it back... And a person that uses this logic is in charge of designing my favorite game...



Did this guy really just compare a 15 second CD CC breaking blink to a 30 second CD teleport that brought you to the same location each time and didn't remove CC as an example of homogenization?

[G3istly]

Everything (in regards to PvP) has been done to:

A) Keep players on the treadmill no matter what (always a new insane AP farm every 7.x.0 patch, concordance, no cap on ilvl/traits in pvp etc)
B) Make casuals/PvErs happy when they PvP (ie cater to the "I can't use my toolkit so I get CC'd forever, OP neeeerf" whine)

Yeah, no. You clearly don't understand what a casual is because the last thing we wanted was something we're forced to do endlessly. That's what appeals to the no-lifers, not people who want to log in and have fun.

[RelaZ]

I find that after a reasonable effort, some people are still like talking to a turnip or have egos bigger than China and can't admit they're mistaken. Often times both.

Like you and your GF Krassz, who has never made a post to me that didn't contain some completely fabricated bullshit - and you call that, "he actually knows how to argue"??

Holy jumping christ. ~8^ /

Both of you've had numerous beatdowns and now have raging hard-ons, as evidenced by your post quoting me when I wasn't talking to you and you were ignored, your last post, and to other people who've proven you wrong.

Before I go, I'll take just one issue from Watcher that you linked, that apparently you've lapped up in typical fanboy fashion:




What an enormous load of PR crapola. He knows damned well what people mean when they say "new players", which means people that haven't played WoW or PvP are still new to it for some time at max level with max abilities, not just during leveling. The pruning at all levels but mainly at max level is what people have been pissed about - after they would have all of their abilities. A pathetic attempt to excuse their "class design" and shitting on specific playstyle and outplay opportunities we once had.



So yes, back on ignore.

Good to see you failed to make a counter argument to any of the points I made, and the good ol' ignore comes out as usual! Typical Caolela!

PS: You actually managed to missinterpret my post so hard to the point where you think I agree with anything Watcher said. You're a special kind of stupid!

Yeah, no. You clearly don't understand what a casual is because the last thing we wanted was something we're forced to do endlessly. That's what appeals to the no-lifers, not people who want to log in and have fun.

That's why it was in A) and not B), you see they're separate doctrines - separate goals.

First and foremost Blizzard wants to keep people on the treadmill (regardless if people want to or not, because if they're on the treadmill it means they're subscribed => $$$) and secondly they tried to design Legion around what casuals/PvErs have asked for, for 10 or so years.

So because the script slayers struggled to find a use for an ability, and because the devs literally forgot the ability was in the game when designing encounters, they remove it and and make us PvPers have to spend an honor talent point just so we can have it back... And a person that uses this logic is in charge of designing my favorite game...



Did this guy really just compare a 15 second CD CC breaking blink to a 30 second CD teleport that brought you to the same location each time and didn't remove CC as an example of homogenization?

Yeah Blizzard's fairly fucking stupid alright. Those of us, PvPers, that got invited complained as much as we could during both WoD & Legion beta/alpha, to no avail.

Also, another decent thread (from a top PvPers I might add): https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743025110

[Kithelle]

I mean, ranked pvp has been declining for a very long time and blizzard doesnt seem to care. Seems like they are more focused on keeping the casuals happy in pvp. Oh well.

They don't care about PvP in general...they hate it so they're trying to kill it while stuffing their raid or die agenda down our throats.

[Deleted]

The simplification of the PVE system really effected PVP alot.

[G3istly]

That's why it was in A) and not B), you see they're separate doctrines - separate goals.

First and foremost Blizzard wants to keep people on the treadmill (regardless if people want to or not, because if they're on the treadmill it means they're subscribed => $$$) and secondly they tried to design Legion around what casuals/PvErs have asked for, for 10 or so years.

Which would only appeal to no-lifers, not casuals. Last I checked, there's nothing in here that I or any other casual player asked for so if you're going to keep trying to use us as a scapegoat you're going to have to come up with a better reason than that.

[Mafic]

They don't care about PvP in general...they hate it so they're trying to kill it while stuffing their raid or die agenda down our throats.

This.

The PVE devs had hurt feelings that more people used Ashran to gear up alts than doing PVE.

Personally I don't think it makes a difference, because people complained in BC that they had to do PVP for starter "PVE gear" but that gear was quickly replaced once you progressed anyways.

In WoD you had to actively work towards epic PVP gear which was lower ilevel than most PVE gear anyways.

- - - Updated - - -

The simplification of the PVE system really effected PVP alot.

PVE isn't any better with lost utility.

One class that has slowly gained back utility (Eg Rogues) and now other classes are asking for a return in utility as they see people using Rogues due to their utility in PVE as soakers.

The PVE devs tried to create PVE raids that require jumping through complex hoops but dumbed down rotations too much. The flipside of that is a spank and tank fight but with complex rotations.

Yeah a lot of older raids were spank and tank fights but complex rotations also make for complex classes and depth in non raid environments. Without a complex PVE raid to jump through difficult hoops the classes in general are empty shells with little nuance, depth or learning curve.