Realistic wooden paintings depict the ancient faces of Egypt from 2000 years ago

[Chrysia]

The Greek-Egyptian descendants of the post-Alexander Egyptian ruling class resemble Greeks. Shocking!

[Deleted]

Knew about these years ago. Still, always interesting to have a peek to the past through art.

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There are plenty of rich and interesting cultures in Africa ranging from the Songhai Empire to the Swahili city states, but they aren't focused on so a lot of people feel there is little to identify with in history.

Well, there's nothing that would prevent sub-Saharan Africans from excavating and researching their history. After all, who cares about it if even they themselves don't care? Especially since those ancient civilizations, if there truly were any, left no lasting impact to the larger world.

[Elegiac]

Well, there's nothing that would prevent sub-Saharan Africans from excavating and researching their history. After all, who cares about it if even they themselves don't care? Especially since those ancient civilizations, if there truly were any, left no lasting impact to the larger world.

The issue is that the West has something of a monopoly over historical discourse and more importantly the media by which said discourse is disseminated. That you're questioning if there 'were any' ancient African civilizations is indicative of this; the Western narrative pushes this notion that Africans lived in tribes ruled over by warchiefs and witch doctors that left no lasting impact on world history.

It left no lasting impact on -European- history (though that in itself is debatable), which is really the big sin and the reason it's not talked about.

[Independent voter]

The issue is that the West has something of a monopoly over historical discourse and more importantly the media by which said discourse is disseminated. That you're questioning if there 'were any' ancient African civilizations is indicative of this; the Western narrative pushes this notion that Africans lived in tribes ruled over by warchiefs and witch doctors that left no lasting impact on world history.

It left no lasting impact on -European- history (though that in itself is debatable), which is really the big sin and the reason it's not talked about.

So you're saying that if there are two groups there are two sides to the story? NO! I DON'T BELIEVE IT!

How simplistic.

[Belize]

Knew about these years ago. Still, always interesting to have a peek to the past through art.

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Well, there's nothing that would prevent sub-Saharan Africans from excavating and researching their history. After all, who cares about it if even they themselves don't care? Especially since those ancient civilizations, if there truly were any, left no lasting impact to the larger world.

Fwiw the Sub-Saharan salt trade drove a good portion of the ancient world economy, and the riches accumulated from it built great empires.

More modernly, moorish invasions of the iberian peninsula left a large impact on Western Europe.

[Freighter]

The issue is that the West has something of a monopoly over historical discourse and more importantly the media by which said discourse is disseminated. That you're questioning if there 'were any' ancient African civilizations is indicative of this; the Western narrative pushes this notion that Africans lived in tribes ruled over by warchiefs and witch doctors that left no lasting impact on world history.

It left no lasting impact on -European- history (though that in itself is debatable), which is really the big sin and the reason it's not talked about.

That's not the case.

[Kalis]

The Greek-Egyptian descendants of the post-Alexander Egyptian ruling class resemble Greeks. Shocking!

They do not look very Greek.

[Elegiac]

They do not look very Greek.

Exactly what do you think Greeks should 'look like'.

Moreover, there is a distinction between 'Greeks' in the modern sense as an ethnicity and 'Greek' as it was actually viewed in terms of a cultural adherent.

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That's not the case.

Oh, really?

How many documentaries about the Crusades exist versus, say, the history of Srivijaya? How many 'world history' books follow the traditional scheme of Egypt > Mesopotamia > Persia > Greece > Rome > Middle Ages > Renaissance > Modern History?

We're talking about historical discourse in the international sense. I get that people have local history courses that focus more on their own sphere; but because people in Texas learn about the history of Texas does not make all aspects of it significant in the greater discussion because it's not what the mainstream finds interesting or important.

[Rusque]

Herodotus, a Greek historian, has one of the earliest written descriptions of the Egyptians and wrote that they were darker skinned and had very curly hair.

The Pharaoh Ramesses II was forensically determined to be a redhead and of Libyan descent.

The Pharaoh Tutankhamun was DNA sequenced (but not publicly revealed), there is speculation that he had Jewish heritage and that the Egyptian authority did not want to stir any trouble.

Cleopatra was a mix of some sort, likely Greek/Persian, but may have been part African. Her father was a Greek general in Alexander the Great's Army, but there is no record of who her mother was.

Egypt was a racially diverse land where people from all sorts of ethnicities mixed. I'm prone to believe this one as the radically different backgrounds of the Pharohs seems to speak to no "pure" line of rulers as there were a good number with Black features as well.


As for the Fayum portraits, I've seen them in person and amusingly look similar to the middle one in the OP (of course, male pattern baldness has taken care of the hair on top of my head at this point). I am Cypriot so yeah, makes sense to me.

[Deleted]

The issue is that the West has something of a monopoly over historical discourse and more importantly the media by which said discourse is disseminated.

Western culture has created the modern world through science, technology, and post-religious values that no other cultures anywhere managed to develop. It's natural that it comes on top when history is being taught, especially in Western schools. It's up to each country to teach their own history and how it intertwines with the larger world history.

It seems that most other cultures aren't really even that interested in their history. Active search for knowledge seems to have been a very European trait while others have mostly sat on their asses without any significant improvements in tech or society, submitting to the fatalistic beliefs of endlessly repeating life cycles or whatever. Indians didn't even know there were massive, ruined cities in their jungles until European explorers found and excavated them. Egyptians in the 1800's knew next to nothing about the time of the Pharaohs until European archaeologists dug up their old ruins, temples and tombs. and so forth.

[Chrysia]

They do not look very Greek.

They do to me.

https://cycleback.wordpress.com/2013...wax-paintings/

[Deleted]

Cleopatra was a mix of some sort, likely Greek/Persian, but may have been part African. Her father was a Greek general in Alexander the Great's Army, but there is no record of who her mother was.

Alexander lived 300 years before Cleopatra.

[Milchshake]

The issue is that the West has something of a monopoly over historical discourse and more importantly the media by which said discourse is disseminated. That you're questioning if there 'were any' ancient African civilizations is indicative of this; the Western narrative pushes this notion that Africans lived in tribes ruled over by warchiefs and witch doctors that left no lasting impact on world history.

It left no lasting impact on -European- history (though that in itself is debatable), which is really the big sin and the reason it's not talked about.

Not to mention the vast amount of artifacts or other art that was looted during the Colonial periods, much of which is locked away in private collections or museum basements. There's probably more Ancient Greek artifacts in the British Museum or the Pergamon than in all the combined national galleries in Greece.

They have some incredibly feminine face somehow.

Fascinating!

Death at a young age does that.

[Chrysia]

Alexander lived 300 years before Cleopatra.

Which Cleopatra? The guy is wrong in any case, but it's true that one of her ancestors was a Greek general under Alexander, namely Ptolemy I Soter.

[Elegiac]

Western culture has created the modern world through science, technology, and post-religious values that no other cultures anywhere managed to develop. It's natural that it comes on top when history is being taught, especially in Western schools. It's up to each country to teach their own history and how it intertwines with the larger world history.

Ignoring of course all the contributions from across the world that the West ultimately adapted and built upon. History is not a singular narrative with a protagonist and a 'victor', it is a continuous process. The West's success was ultimately built on West Asian and American crops, Islamic and Indian mathematical principles and astronomical techniques, Chinese technologies and administrative practices, along with Western philosophy concerning government and society. Moreover history is not a linear progression of 'primitive' to 'advanced'; the west is preponderant for now in the same sense that Islam was preponderant for now, China was preponderant for now. In one hundred, two hundred years the civilization that might exist might look on the Western canon in the same way you deride other cultures. Key word here is perspective.

It seems that most other cultures aren't really even that interested in their history. Active search for knowledge seems to have been a very European trait while others have mostly sat on their asses without any significant improvements in tech or society, submitting to the fatalistic beliefs of endlessly repeating life cycles or whatever. Indians didn't even know there were massive, ruined cities in their jungles until European explorers found and excavated them. Egyptians in the 1800's knew next to nothing about the time of the Pharaohs until European archaeologists dug up their old ruins, temples and tombs. and so forth.

'Active search for knowledge is a very European trait'.

Kay, we're apparently reducing the argument to racism now. Which is entirely wrong; archaeology has existed for centuries, and the study of history has arisen in most cultures with a literary or oral tradition. I mean shit, one of the first pieces of extant Chinese literature is the Classic of History.

[Kalis]

Exactly what do you think Greeks should 'look like'.

Like Greek people that you might typically see in Greece and not like those from the South Eastern Mediterranean, who you would normally see in the South Eastern Mediterranean.

Moreover, there is a distinction between 'Greeks' in the modern sense as an ethnicity and 'Greek' as it was actually viewed in terms of a cultural adherent.

I am talking about ethnicity and those people do not look ethnically Greek, what culture they ascribed to is neither here nor there.

[Rusque]

Alexander lived 300 years before Cleopatra.

You are right, I can't remember who I'm thinking of though.

[Kalis]

They do to me.

https://cycleback.wordpress.com/2013...wax-paintings/

The pcitures in the OP are not of typical Greeks, they are of typical South Eastern Mediterraneans. I have lived there and been going to that region for over 40 years.

[Elegiac]

Like Greek people that you might typically see in Greece and not like those from the South Eastern Mediterranean, who you would normally see in the South Eastern Mediterranean.

You're aware that there's about a two millennia gap between the Faiyum portraits and Alexis Tsipras, right?

[Chrysia]

The pcitures in the OP are not of typical Greeks, they are of typical South Eastern Mediterraneans. I have lived there and been going to that region for over 40 years.

Yes, now, and Southeastern Mediterraneans look like that specifically because of Ancient Greek genetic influence.