Redraw the borders of the Middle East

[Khaza-R]

You should read more about the French mandate and Syrian-Arab history if you think redrawing borders works realistically.

[Gref]

@Kuntantee I can't remember but I bet you can.
The minister who told "a little bit radiation is good for body" and drank "the tea" after the Chernobyl disaster affected our tea crops.
So yes a little bit radiation I would gladly take for that

[Kalis]

Grand Vezir is not the only title. You have hundreds of Pashas and Aghas (military commanders) and other administrative positions. The rest were used as "er" (foot soldier). And unlike popular belief, ethnic Turks (Sipahis) did the bulk of the fighting. Ottoman Army had like 12k - 15k jannisaries (conscripted -- "enslaved" -- European peasants) and the rest (~80k or so) sipahis. The figures depended on the year and power of the empire, obviously. And to be fair, we hardly ever enslaved Greeks. It was mostly your Eastern neighbors. We let Greeks to run/teach in the navy and do their craft. Same for Armenians.


Yes there is, whether you accept it or not. It's implied by the very practices.
Is it barbaric to today's standards? Yes. Is it better than colonial slavery? A great canyon between the two.

Rapes, beatings, brainwashing, deaths...is not such a bad life according to the Turks. Those lucky old Greeks.

As you are downplaying slavery, I guess you are going to claim the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocides were just a minor dispute between neighbours.

[Deleted]

At this point it won't work the they had a shot post WWI and blew it big time. The UK and France have in my view the largest hand in creating this sectarian battlefield known as the middle east which in turn has helped foster world wide terrorism. They didn't care a damn about anything of then " Mmmmmm resources and land to plunder from our victory in WWI" So they drew up rather artificial lines when dividing up the Ottoman Empire. They did the same with Africa so i don't know why we are shocked.

Regardless, these people both in Middle East and Africa have had 50-100 years to peacefully renegotiate and redraw their borders between each other, following any tribal or ethnic boundaries they like. Question is, why haven't they?

[Kalis]

Regardless, these people both in Middle East and Africa have had 50-100 years to peacefully renegotiate and redraw their borders between each other, following any tribal or ethnic boundaries they like. Question is, why haven't they?

The great pencil shortage of 1936 meant they could not redraw them. Such a tragedy.

[Kuntantee]

Rapes, beatings, brainwashing, deaths...is not such a bad life according to the Turks. Those lucky old Greeks.

Go a head and provide the necessary material regarding mass raping/beating/brainwashing and murder of Greek slaves by Turks. Make sure it is academic.

Ottoman Empire did enslaved Europeans but

1 - it was for janissary army and their numbers always kept in check, peaking to ~15k at the height of empire.
2 - outside of janissaries, there isn't example of mass slavery by Turks. Barbary raids to Mediterranean shores (Spanish/Italian coastline) were carried out by Arabs (Moroccan what not), not Turks.

In fact, the only difference between a Greek and a Turk was additional taxes, and exclusion from central government. They did hold authority locally at some points, and were subjected to Christian law and their properties were protected by the empire.

[A dot Ham]

The infamous Sykes-Picot agreement arguably established the basis for the countries in the Levant. The creation of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Palestine with the migration of Ashkenazi Jews to British Palestine leading to the seeds that would eventually form the state of Israel.

A lot of the modern borders in the Levant and other parts of the Middle East to a lesser extent have sowed some of the conflicts in modern times. So if you had to redraw the borders of the Middle East, how would you go about it?

My Re-Drawn Map of the Middle East
First, I would probably divide Turkey into three countries, the largest part being...well Turkey, with the Kurdish regions being seperated and a small state for groups like Armenians and Greeks (a Republic of Antioch). Of course I would establish a Kurdish state in the Kurdistan regions, taking them from Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran.

Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt would go unchanged. As for Iran, the Azerbaijani parts would go to Azerbaijan and the Iranian Arab parts in the southwest Iran would join with Iraq.

Would create two Palestinian states (a Palestinian Republic of Gaza and a Republic of East Palestine). I wouldn't change Israel and the only Gulf State I would change would be Yemen, which imo needs to be divided back into two states (the Western part possibly even unifying with Eritrea, Djibouti or Ethiopia).

An unqualified American arbitrarily redrawing national borders he/she has no vested interest in, is the basic premise of our problems in the middle east.

[Kuntantee]

Someone should have told my grandfather. As I've said in other topics, he was born in Ottoman-occupied Epirus just before the Greek army liberated it in 1913. He was born with the legal status of livestock. He only became a full-fledged human with attending rights once the region was free.

Fluffy and nice indeed. That's why it's so fondly-remembered by Greeks. Truly a golden age.

I am afraid your Grandfather is a liar. Turks had constitution with equalizing (Christian) minorities and giving them even more rights in the first constitution (mid 19th century). That's the problem with Greeks, they either lie or they think they know (because that's what they are told in school), but they don't.

If Turks did not threat your grandfather well, you can blame it on Greek rebellion, but constitutionally, he was not a "livestock" not even close. If you insist, however, he was "legally" a livestock. I will invite you to provide necessary material to your claims. I had enough of this farce. Moreover, for ill-treamtment of your grandfather: you can't really be nice to people who are aiming to rebel and slaughter/ethnically cleanse you from your home.

What you Greeks need is a bit more utilization of brain and less nationalistic horseshit. Maybe it'll help you running your state properly.

- - - Updated - - -

As you are downplaying slavery, I guess you are going to claim the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocides were just a minor dispute between neighbours.

Can't say the same for Armenians or Assyrians (not a genocide), but Greeks pretty much deserved the truck hit them after the invasion. You are lucky that Turkish army was in a desperate state after the independence war, otherwise, we'd take Selanik and nearby Turkmen regions. And for the record, I am not saying this out of some nationalistic spree. This has been discussed in 1922 and concluded that it'd be devastating for the army.

[Stelio Kontos]

I am afraid your Grandfather is a liar. Turks had constitution with equalizing (Christian) minorities and giving them even more rights in the first constitution (mid 19th century). That's the problem with Greeks, they either lie or they think they know (because that's what they are told in school), but they don't.

If Turks did not threat your grandfather well, you can blame it on Greek rebellion, but constitutionally, he was not a "livestock" not even close. If you insist, however, he was "legally" a livestock. I will invite you to provide necessary material to your claims. I had enough of this farce. Moreover, for ill-treamtment of your grandfather: you can't really be nice to people who are aiming to rebel and slaughter/ethnically cleanse you from your home.

What you Greeks need is a bit more utilization of brain and less nationalistic horseshit. Maybe it'll help you running your state properly.

- - - Updated - - -



Can't say the same for Armenians or Assyrians (not a genocide), but Greeks pretty much deserved the truck hit them after the invasion. You are lucky that Turkish army was in a desperate state after the independence war, otherwise, we'd take Selanik and nearby Turkmen regions. And for the record, I am not saying this out of some nationalistic spree. This has been discussed in 1922 and concluded that it'd be devastating for the army.

Greece wasn't the home of any Turks. They illegally occupied and colonized parts of it, but it isn't their land to be at home in.

The Altai mountains and surrounding area are your home. Anatolia was home to Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Greeks, and others who had been there for millennia.

I'll trust the words of folks who lived through the Ottoman period than Turks, who do have a well-deserved bad reputation for whitewashing their own history.

And you say the Greeks deserved their genocide. Sad you should say that, really. I thought you were a modicum better than a typical Turk.

Guess I was wrong.

[Kuntantee]

Greece wasn't the home of any Turks. They illegally occupied and colonized parts of it, but it isn't their land to be at home in.

The Altai mountains and surrounding area are your home. Anatolia was home to Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Greeks, and others who had been there for millennia.

I'll trust the words of folks who lived through the Ottoman period than Turks, who do have a well-deserved bad reputation for whitewashing their own history.

So what you have is just bunch of stories, probably highly exaggerated due to the zeitgeist of the era (aka widespread racism). Thanks for clarifying that out.

And you say the Greeks deserved their genocide. Sad you should say that, really. I thought you were a modicum better than a typical Turk.

Guess I was wrong.

Modicum? Lol, you are generous. Sorry if that offended you, that was bit off the line, whether it is a genocide or not.