Confusion continues surrounding drunken consent

[Freighter]

That is not how this works, as long as she is conscious she can consent. There really isn't such a thing as "too drunk to consent", because the only time that you really are too drunk to consent, you are literally unconscious.

Blatantly false. If someone doesn't know wtf is going on but are still awake they are legally unable to consent and as such it is rape/sexual assault to have sex with them in such a state regardless of what they said.

[Fojos]

Blatantly false. If someone doesn't know wtf is going on but are still awake they are legally unable to consent and as such it is rape to have sex with them in such a state regardless of what they said.

If she is conscious she knows what the fuck is going on. With your argument we have a slippery slope where anyone with any kind of mental disorder can call rape at any moment.

[Freighter]

If she is conscious she knows what the fuck is going on. With your argument we have a slippery slope where anyone with any kind of mental disorder can call rape at any moment.

No, you don't know what the fuck is going on just because you're awake.

[Ghostpanther]

As was mentioned earlier, there's really enough information. I will agree that with we do know, it appears the police screwed up the investigation.

Yeah. I agree the police did a shitty job. I also think if the guy had not sent the text and she claimed he raped her, then it would be her word against his. All he would need to do is say he did not, as the sex was consensual. But the text he sent to her in my opinion would have been enough evidence to interrogate him and depending on his answers, maybe charge him with rape. The whole key to this case would rest on the text message he sent and how his answers would be in accordance to the text.

[Fojos]

No, you don't know what the fuck is going on just because you're awake.

Yes, you do, otherwise you're not fully awake.

"En bloc blackouts are classified by the inability to later recall any memories from the intoxication period, even when prompted. These blackouts are characterized also by the ability to easily recall things that have occurred within the last 2 minutes, yet being unable to recall anything prior to this period. As such, a person experiencing an en bloc blackout may not appear to be doing so, as they can carry on conversations or even manage to accomplish difficult feats."

In any case, read up on these things before having strong opinions. The insanity is that people who create laws are many times as uninformed regarding the science and definitions as people on this forum.

[Freighter]

Yes, you do, otherwise you're not fully awake.

Being awake is not an on-and-off switch.

In any case, read up on these things before having strong opinions. The insanity is that people who create laws are many times as uninformed regarding the science and definitions as people on this forum.

Blackouts have fuck all to do with what I'm talking about.

[Deleted]

1. Bad situation all around. Seems like the guy tried to do the right thing, thought everything was all good (likely due to his own intoxication), but it still went sideways. Doubly sucks that they were friends beforehand.

2. Law enforcement and other authority figures need better training on how to handle this type of thing across the board. Things you SHOULDN'T do include: blaming the victim, assuming facts not in evidence, not adequately questioning witnesses or processing evidence in the appropriate timeframe (i.e. immediately after receiving the initial report), immediately assigning guilt to the suspect regardless of circumstances, sweeping it under the rug. Any sane person should be able to agree that any amount of victim blaming OR false conviction (or punishment without conviction) is too much.

3. There is not enough information in the article to determine several key aspects of the story. She could have been completely unconscious, partially conscious but apparently coherent, fully conscious and coherent but with memory impairment, etc. It can be very difficult to tell the difference between the latter two, especially when her partner was also intoxicated, even moreso if they have not been out drinking together before.

4. You are unable to enter into a legally binding contract while drunk, high, mentally unfit, etc. If you do so, and renege on your end of the contract, and the contract is challenged in court, the judge would most likely vacate the contract in its entirety. This does not apply to making irresponsible purchases you later regret, but specifically putting pen to paper and agreeing to terms.

5. Likening drunk sex and drunk driving is simply abhorrent. There exist very clear laws regarding the amount of alcohol that can legally be consumed prior to operating a motor vehicle, and objective methods for determining current levels of intoxication. Until we determine a legal limit for consent and start administering breathalyzers to would be partners ahead of sex, there is no legitimate comparison here.

6. I used to work at a major retailer that sold keychain breathalyzers. The intention was that people could self test before driving and determine whether or not it was safe to drive themselves home, but I would recommend them here as well. You may get rejected because whipping out a breathalyzer at the time you would normally get a condom is weird, but it is better to get rejected than to get charged with rape because you couldn't be bothered to double check.

7. These types of threads probably should be banned. I have only recently started posting, but I have been lurking for a very long time, and they always go down exactly the same way. OP posts the article, calls for outrage on behalf of the blamed victim or the falsely accused, and the usual suspects jump in to defend their preferred narrative until people start flaming and the thread either dies out or is closed by mods. Little constructive discussion can happen when people aren't even open to hearing the other side, much less using evidence based critical thinking to arrive at a well reasoned conclusion.

2. What is wrong with victim blaming? No one has ever been able to give me a coherent answer to that, if im waving thousands in cash around in a bad neighborhood then i am at least partially to blame for being robbed. No, i did not force them to rob me, but that doesn't mean that my stupidity wasn't a deciding factor in me being robbed.

5. Drunk driving, yea that can be called abhorrent, but not drunk sex. Normally no one gets hurt by drunken sex, but yea, if you are stupid enough to get too drunk then that is on you your self.

6. You should not have to check if someone is too drunk or not, that is their own business. Revoking consent the next day isn't rape, it just makes the other person an asshole. People can always claim rape, no matter how drunk or not they are.

[Ghostpanther]

That is not how this works, as long as she is conscious she can consent. There really isn't such a thing as "too drunk to consent", because the only time that you really are too drunk to consent, you are literally unconscious. So the correct thing to say would be you can not consent while unconscious, because it has very little to do with being drunk and everything to do with being conscious.

Him asking 5 times is nothing more then him being scared that she would claim rape after the fact. And apparently he was rightfully scared because that is exactly what happened.

No, you can be conscious of something and not be able to consent. I could tell you many ways this can happen. But rather you just think about it. :P

You are assuming such. And if you are correct, then that makes him even more of a dumbass.

[Deleted]

Blatantly false. If someone doesn't know wtf is going on but are still awake they are legally unable to consent and as such it is rape/sexual assault to have sex with them in such a state regardless of what they said.

That would mean that you could never consent.

[Fojos]

Being awake is not an on-and-off switch.



Blackouts have fuck all to do with what I'm talking about.

Being awake is being active, aware of your surroundings. If you're in a state where you don't know what is going on at all you're not fully awake.

[Deleted]

No, you can be conscious of something and not be able to consent. I could tell you many ways this can happen. But rather you just think about it. :P

You are assuming such. And if you are correct, then that makes him even more of a dumbass.

Not really, if you are conscious you are able to consent, period. If you are unable to consent to something then you have no business being there in the first place.

I'm not assuming nearly as much as the people who think that he raped her. Asking something 5 times means that they want consent, a rapist would not care for consent either way.

[Freighter]

Being awake is being active, aware of your surroundings. If you're in a state where you don't know what is going on at all you're not fully awake.

People who are delirious are awake, people who are confused are awake, they don't know what the fuck is going on. Alcohol causes similar states when imbibed in greater amounts and as such people who have imbibed large amounts of alcohol don't know what the fuck is going on either.

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6. You should not have to check if someone is too drunk or not, that is their own business. Revoking consent the next day isn't rape, it just makes the other person an asshole. People can always claim rape, no matter how drunk or not they are.

Have fun going to prison in the future then.

[shimerra]

Not really, if you are conscious you are able to consent, period. If you are unable to consent to something then you have no business being there in the first place.

I'm not assuming nearly as much as the people who think that he raped her. Asking something 5 times means that they want consent, a rapist would not care for consent either way.

Wrong on a great many levels. Being conscious is not the only requirement for consent.

And you're assuming plenty. Seems to be the main thing you do do. Plenty of rapists assume consent.

[Deleted]

People who are delirious are awake, people who are confused are awake, they don't know what the fuck is going on. Alcohol causes similar states when imbibed in greater amounts and as such people who have imbibed large amounts of alcohol don't know what the fuck is going on either.

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Have fun going to prison in the future then.

For what exactly?

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Wrong on a great many levels. Being conscious is not the only requirement for consent.

And you're assuming plenty. Seems to be the main thing you do do. Plenty of rapists assume consent.

Yea, just too bad that you can not point out any of these levels, this is because there aren't any levels on that im wrong. If you are conscious you can consent, period. And no, im not talking about minors.

I do not assume nearly as much as you.

[Freighter]

For what exactly?

Your honor, I did not check if she was too drunk to consent. I believe everyone can consent at all times and it doesn't matter how drunk someone is.

[Deleted]

Your honor, I did not check if she was too drunk to consent. I believe everyone can consent at all times and it doesn't matter how drunk someone is.

And now please explain how you are supposed to know how drunk someone is, and then explain how exactly you come to the conclusion that this drunk is too drunk. Fact is, you and you alone are responsible for your own drinking, if you had sex that you regret the next day, that doesn't mean you got raped. What that does mean is that you can not control your self when drinking and probably should not drink. You can not blame that on other people.

PS

"Your honor, I did not realize i was too drunk to drive" That is what you sound like.

[Freighter]

And now please explain how you are supposed to know how drunk someone is, and then explain how exactly you come to the conclusion that this drunk is too drunk. Fact is, you and you alone are responsible for your own drinking, if you had sex that you regret the next day, that doesn't mean you got raped. What that does mean is that you can not control your self when drinking and probably should not drink. You can not blame that on other people.

Most cases where someone is reported for rape when alcohol is involved is not regret. Quite telling that you think it is about regret.

[Deleted]

Most cases where someone is reported for rape when alcohol is involved is not regret.

That doesn't mean that you can't consent while drunk, and, citation needed.

[Freighter]

That doesn't mean that you can't consent while drunk, and, citation needed.

No country outlaws drunk sex. It's too drunk in basically every jurisdiction.

You insinuated it's about regret, you provide the citation for it.

[Deleted]

No country outlaws drunk sex. It's too drunk in basically every jurisdiction.

You insinuated it's about regret, you provide the citation for it.

And too drunk is unconscious, nothing less.

I asked you to prove your statement, but apparently it is just a baseless claim.

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Oh, and you have still not proven that you can't consent while drunk.