[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Kazgrel]

No, the XP caps at around 103k per. The mobs keep scaling up, though, which is mildly annoying, but...meh, still not very tough. If you do them and all the HW Hunts you get around 1.2M XP a day.

Huh...I didn't even think to try the HW daily hunts, either. I have done the SB ones a few times, and they're worth more than that total from the HW ones, but the HW ones would be faceroll for anyone at level 60+. Bit tedious to be bouncing all around like that, but xp is xp, and if you're in a dps queue, what else is there to do?

[Granyala]

The advantage that M+ had is that I didn't chase any upgrades off it (I never do off RNG that's a recipe to kill yourself over or get burned out). I played it because it was fun and challenging and occasionally offered me direct power rewards, artifact currency (which empowered my character in ways that weren't always ilvl based). That to me is an infinitely better system for character progression. Now granted I'm a player with self control and have a career/home/SO/hobbies so naturally I play less, but I also avoid specific things that will burn me out.

The problem I have with FF14 at end game is that there's not even any content to do that. I'm ilvl 320 or so and I haven't set foot in savage because I haven't been motivated to find a static. I could pug for sure and I very well may, but other than leveling up jobs I don't have any aesthetic interest in the only content left is menu based content or grinding things I've already grinded (ground?) countless times for reasons none other than to kill time. That means that I play effectively 2-3 hours a week, 10 a month. It's hard to justify even a paltry $13 or whatever a month on that. I get frustrated because I truly think the game can be more.

Sure, but imho a RNG bonanza ala DiabloWoW is not the answer. At least not for me.
M+ was basically dead to me, because as a nonraider casual I leveled too slowly, so when I got up there my guild mates ran levels I couldn't due do gear blah and the only option was running it with randoms. Erm no. Not really a fun option.
I'm sure that I would have ran the crap out of M+ if I were still in my "prime years" as an active raider and would have had a lot of fun with my guild mates.

You are right in the regard that Ff-XIVs loot distribution is hard gated, which leaves you with nothing to do but level alt classes rather quickly. (unless you go into omnicrafting, then you need to be a no-lifer to keep up and make profit lol)

For a casual like me, this is pretty much the right thing. I still don't get around to everything I would like to do in FF-XIV and I don't have to bother with dumb RNG in order for my character to be decent.

[Wrecktangle]

But you do. Not very much admittedly, but you still have to open your map, locate the FATE, get on your mount, point yourself in the right direction, get to the FATE, dismount, level sync if necessary and then activate the necessary abilities to get credit. You cannot simply AFK and get credit, you can only AFK after doing the above set of things. You have to participate....a minimal amount admittedly, but you have to repeat the above steps every 2-3 minutes minimum to make FATE grinding worthwhile (if you can even find a group, but that's a different story). I'm not arguing that it's fantastic, engaging/ fun game play, but you have to be engaged...meaning you have to participate you have to be aware and do things, you have to make decisions and take action...even if those decisions and actions are incredibly minimal.

If opening the map and pressing auto run passes for "paying attention" to you we're at an impasse and the discussion is over lol. We're arguing semantics at this point because you've already conceded the other points and I don't even think you can say the above with a straight face and are merely arguing so you don't have to agree with me. IMO you're arguing about being present, not engaged. Much like a colleague at work who picks up the phone, dials the conference number that pops up in Outlook, and presses the mute button and AFK's 30 minutes playing games on his cell. This person is PRESENT, but they are not engaged. What you describe is being present for FATEs, not being engaged in them. IMO of course, but there is a staggering and obvious distinction regardless of how well I am conveying it.

Sure, but imho a RNG bonanza ala DiabloWoW is not the answer. At least not for me.
M+ was basically dead to me, because as a nonraider casual I leveled too slowly, so when I got up there my guild mates ran levels I couldn't due do gear blah and the only option was running it with randoms. Erm no. Not really a fun option.
I'm sure that I would have ran the crap out of M+ if I were still in my "prime years" as an active raider and would have had a lot of fun with my guild mates.

You are right in the regard that Ff-XIVs loot distribution is hard gated, which leaves you with nothing to do but level alt classes rather quickly. (unless you go into omnicrafting, then you need to be a no-lifer to keep up and make profit lol)

For a casual like me, this is pretty much the right thing. I still don't get around to everything I would like to do in FF-XIV and I don't have to bother with dumb RNG in order for my character to be decent.

I pugged a ton of high level M+. I even got my 10 achieve in a pug. I had a great time and met some great players and was even recruited to 2 different top 100 Mythic guilds with a guaranteed spot in the next weeks raid. I had a few bad runs too. And one REALLY, almost comically bad run. Like the worst I've ever seen, in any game. ever.

That said, I always had MORE fun with my friends so I do sympathize with you. I'm a filthy casual too these days, but I find that FF14 doesn't have enough content for me to toy with that engages me. I offered an idea above in a response to Faroth that went over a M+ styled variant for FF14. Did you see it/read it? if so take a stab and share your thoughts on it.

IMO if Legion had removed RNG legendaries and reigned in TitanForging I'd say its loot system was pretty damned solid.

[Granyala]

I offered an idea above in a response to Faroth that went over a M+ styled variant for FF14. Did you see it/read it? if so take a stab and share your thoughts on it.

IMO if Legion had removed RNG legendaries and reigned in TitanForging I'd say its loot system was pretty damned solid.

If you leave out the stupid race against the clock (I have a timer-aversion in games, not sure why but they stress me out to an extreme that ruins any fun), I quite like the concept of M+. Never got to the point of modifiers i WoW.

Generally I think it would be a cool Idea but nothing that would work if you throw random people together. Hell they STILL can't handle Vishaps Ballistae and cannons, how do you expect them to deal with a pimped Garuda?

So it would be content solely for fixed groups, which would make it rather uninteresting to the masses.
As for the reward structure: yeah, if you implement scaling that intensively, character power becomes a moot point b/c content always scales up.
So what do you reward? Even more cosmetics?

We both know that content won't get accepted unless it provides player power.

Relic weapon wouldn't work people would rage its gated behind content that you have to keep your eyes open to succeed.

*chuckles*

[Katchii]

If opening the map and pressing auto run passes for "paying attention" to you we're at an impasse and the discussion is over lol. We're arguing semantics at this point because you've already conceded the other points and I don't even think you can say the above with a straight face and are merely arguing so you don't have to agree with me. IMO you're arguing about being present, not engaged. Much like a colleague at work who picks up the phone, dials the conference number that pops up in Outlook, and presses the mute button and AFK's 30 minutes playing games on his cell. This person is PRESENT, but they are not engaged. What you describe is being present for FATEs, not being engaged in them. IMO of course, but there is a staggering and obvious distinction regardless of how well I am conveying it.

I'm not sure how having to do even menial tasks in the game in order to be present doesn't count as paying attention. Yes, actively playing and using multiple moves like you would in a raid setting or dungeon is ENTIRELY different than the minimal auto run, hit flash afk for 2 minutes game play we're describing in FATEs here but you still have to react to the FATE pop locations. You can't be on autopilot, there are still decisions to be made and actions to take.

Your example about the conference call is somewhat appropriate, though I'd say it's about a department meeting that's split up into sections and you have to present for 30-60 seconds per section. So yeah, you can afk for most of it, but you still need to be present enough to know when you need to speak and what to speak about and answer any questions that pop up. It's easy AF, but you still need to be present.

I think you're underplaying just how much you have to do in a FATE grinding group in order to be effective and efficient at gaining xp. None of the actions are skill intensive or require any kind of compelling game play, I'll admit, but saying you can simply auto run and afk and still be effective is disingenuous.

That said I am not trying to say FATEs are engaging per your definition, as you said, I'm just saying you need to be present. But there is still a level of engagement, however small, in having to be present. Your definition of engaged, where you're totally enthralled and focused and active within the content you're in is not a pass/fail or go/no go criteria. There's a spectrum and I'm saying FATEs are on that spectrum...at the far left/ towards the bottom admittedly, while Dungeons and Raids are towards the right/ top with Extreme Primals and Savage Raids being at the top.

Does that make sense?

[Granyala]

I'm not sure how having to do even menial tasks in the game in order to be present doesn't count as paying attention. Yes, actively playing and using multiple moves like you would in a raid setting or dungeon is ENTIRELY different than the minimal auto run, hit flash afk for 2 minutes game play we're describing in FATEs here but you still have to react to the FATE pop locations. You can't be on autopilot, there are still decisions to be made and actions to take

You people do realize that FATEs would never be completed if everyone did this?
Typically, people will be far more active, because they want stuff to get done successfully for the XP.

[Katchii]

You people do realize that FATEs would never be completed if everyone did this?
Typically, people will be far more active, because they want stuff to get done successfully for the XP.

That's a lot of the reason I'm having difficulty as well. You (or someone/ a group of people) have to actually play and do battle to complete them and follow/ race the groups to get to the ones that pop up otherwise you risk not getting credit. I remember back when Northern Thanalan was THE place to FATE grind in 2.0 and the entire zone racing like madmen to get to the DD FATE when it popped to make sure they got maximum amounts of experience.

I'm just acknowledging that it's possible to get FATE credit by doing what Wreck is suggesting.

I think he's simply saying that because he finds FATEs to be so boring, that's the only level of participation he's even willing to give if he ever participates....which is a topic for another discussion.

[Wrecktangle]

If you leave out the stupid race against the clock (I have a timer-aversion in games, not sure why but they stress me out to an extreme that ruins any fun), I quite like the concept of M+. Never got to the point of modifiers i WoW.

Generally I think it would be a cool Idea but nothing that would work if you throw random people together. Hell they STILL can't handle Vishaps Ballistae and cannons, how do you expect them to deal with a pimped Garuda?

So it would be content solely for fixed groups, which would make it rather uninteresting to the masses.
As for the reward structure: yeah, if you implement scaling that intensively, character power becomes a moot point b/c content always scales up.
So what do you reward? Even more cosmetics?

We both know that content won't get accepted unless it provides player power.

I quite like the race against the clock feeling (I know you/others don't), so the compromise in my designing the mechanic is that it's a modifier not an entire system. In the case of your group, you personally could spend "retry" points to get rid of that modifier if it popped up.

People are pugging savage easily these days so I'm not so sure you can go to that argument as easily as you are, BUT knowing that some people here feel that way I am fully ok with this. I actually prefer it, as it forces some FC/PF utilization and interaction. I don't think that's a terribly thing to want to strive towards.

While I know I am a huge proponent for character power (both vertical and horizontal) I'm more than willing to compromise power if content is engaging enough. I think this system would EASILY fit the bill for that. Again we run into the issue of rewards because it would be DOA if it wasn't rewarding. In my head BP (battle points) would be the currency gained. I don't know what you could gate behind it, but it'd need to be fun and meaningful for the content to succeed.

I think you're underplaying just how much you have to do in a FATE grinding group in order to be effective and efficient at gaining xp. None of the actions are skill intensive or require any kind of compelling game play, I'll admit, but saying you can simply auto run and afk and still be effective is disingenuous.

I'm not saying you need to be efficient. I'm merely stating that any system that allows you to do something with such minimal effort and succeed is the problem, thus not content (again by my definition, and only to me personally). If something is so trivial that you succeed by simply pressing M -> AUTO-run key -> and hold down your AOE key; that is the problem. There is no decision process. It's the same qualm I have with old dungeon design (new ones have much higher damage output mitigating this) where you could have a healer who literally sat AFK watching netflix while their pet AFK healed the entire dungeon. Hell if the person actually DPS'd they wouldn't even need a healer because out of combat healing is so potent. I'm not saying things need to be "hard". I'm saying that there need to be obvious mechanics designed to require effort to the point where consistently failing either results in a hard fail, or such a ridiculous time delay that even the most apathetic player wants to try so they can get it done rather than phone it in.

That said I am not trying to say FATEs are engaging per your definition, as you said, I'm just saying you need to be present. But there is still a level of engagement, however small, in having to be present. Your definition of engaged, where you're totally enthralled and focused and active within the content you're in is not a pass/fail or go/no go criteria. There's a spectrum and I'm saying FATEs are on that spectrum...at the far left/ towards the bottom admittedly, while Dungeons and Raids are towards the right/ top with Extreme Primals and Savage Raids being at the top.

Does that make sense?

Yes it makes sense, but it is fundamentally different than what I am saying. I firmly believe that merely being PRESENT doesn't qualify as being ENGAGED. You by your own admission believe that it does. It's why I said we're at an impasse.

- - - Updated - - -

You people do realize that FATEs would never be completed if everyone did this?
Typically, people will be far more active, because they want stuff to get done successfully for the XP.

Just like dungeons would never get completed or take eons if 2/4 or 3/4 players did this (hint it does happen). Not everyone does it (i even stated one time I joined a group and it did, and then people left and tried to sneak into other groups LOL.

That's a lot of the reason I'm having difficulty as well. You (or someone/ a group of people) have to actually play and do battle to complete them and follow/ race the groups to get to the ones that pop up otherwise you risk not getting credit. I remember back when Northern Thanalan was THE place to FATE grind in 2.0 and the entire zone racing like madmen to get to the DD FATE when it popped to make sure they got maximum amounts of experience.

I'm just acknowledging that it's possible to get FATE credit by doing what Wreck is suggesting.

I think he's simply saying that because he finds FATEs to be so boring, that's the only level of participation he's even willing to give if he ever participates....which is a topic for another discussion.

I don't do FATEs, and when I do, it's almost always solo so I have to actually do it myself >.<

Look above, I gave a perfect dungeon example to Granyala. It happens, and it actually happens a fair amount more than people realize.

[Katchii]

I'm not saying you need to be efficient. I'm merely stating that any system that allows you to do something with such minimal effort and succeed is the problem, thus not content (again by my definition, and only to me personally). If something is so trivial that you succeed by simply pressing M -> AUTO-run key -> and hold down your AOE key; that is the problem. There is no decision process. It's the same qualm I have with old dungeon design (new ones have much higher damage output mitigating this) where you could have a healer who literally sat AFK watching netflix while their pet AFK healed the entire dungeon. Hell if the person actually DPS'd they wouldn't even need a healer because out of combat healing is so potent. I'm not saying things need to be "hard". I'm saying that there need to be obvious mechanics designed to require effort to the point where consistently failing either results in a hard fail, or such a ridiculous time delay that even the most apathetic player wants to try so they can get it done rather than phone it in.

Yes it makes sense, but it is fundamentally different than what I am saying. I firmly believe that merely being PRESENT doesn't qualify as being ENGAGED. You by your own admission believe that it does. It's why I said we're at an impasse.


Just like dungeons would never get completed or take eons if 2/4 or 3/4 players did this (hint it does happen). Not everyone does it (i even stated one time I joined a group and it did, and then people left and tried to sneak into other groups LOL.


I don't do FATEs, and when I do, it's almost always solo so I have to actually do it myself >.<

Look above, I gave a perfect dungeon example to Granyala. It happens, and it actually happens a fair amount more than people realize.

I'm just saying that engagement is more than just a pass/fail criteria, that there are levels of it and being present is part of being engaged.

As you've stated though based on your definition of engagement, there will come a point in the life span of a game where content that was once engaging is no longer that way. Dungeons are a prime example since you can easily see a progression over the course of an expansion where a dungeon that was difficult and/ or challenging at first becomes faceroll easy as player gear levels increase and people learn the fights, the mechanics and the pulls upside down and inside out...and that transition doesn't happen overnight meaning that something starts out super engaging and becomes less and less so until it is no longer that way. It doesn't just go from being engaging to not being engaging instantly.

To the whole reward system and content discussion. I'd love if FFXIV had a Mythic dungeon type system where dungeons could get progressively more difficult for chances at higher levels of loot or at least more tomes than normal. I personally don't see the point in content that provides no rewards and is just challenging for the sake of being challenging. I'm the type of player that enjoys getting things, but particularly new skills (my personal favorite, which is why I love leveling) and new gear that increases character power. My favorite thing in an MMO, or any game really where it's possible, is a feeling of progression, of getting more powerful of overcome something that used to be a challenge and making those challenges easier. If content doesn't provide something that works towards one of these two goals, I'm far less likely to take part in it simply because I would choose to do the content that actively works towards progressing my character.

[Bullettime]

Had to wait until the end of the week to try do V1 savage. Holy hell the duty finder at the end of the week is bad and weren't any none duty complete required ones in the party finder. 4 runs in a row with people dying to the first fire orbs, people rocking +0 Dexterity melds and doing like 1500 DPS, and other ridiculous shit.

[lawow74]

Huh...I didn't even think to try the HW daily hunts, either. I have done the SB ones a few times, and they're worth more than that total from the HW ones, but the HW ones would be faceroll for anyone at level 60+. Bit tedious to be bouncing all around like that, but xp is xp, and if you're in a dps queue, what else is there to do?

Not to mention if you do dailies you're in the Forelands and SoC anyways, so...plus you get Seals that are relevant to SB still. I've been stockpiling Mark Logs for the inevitable upgrade items, but you could flip them for Materia or get the toys and whatnot.

[Anzaman]

Gotta love Ixion tho - heard from FC-member that window opened, sat there until 1 AM.. and sadly FATE most likely either already spawned just as I left, or spawns while I'm away from computer.

Wish the window would be smaller.

[Granyala]

I think he's simply saying that because he finds FATEs to be so boring, that's the only level of participation he's even willing to give if he ever participates....which is a topic for another discussion.

I find them super boring as well, which is why I close to never do them.

During the leveling of my WHM from 60-70, I did maybe 5 of them.

- - - Updated - - -

People are pugging savage easily these days so I'm not so sure you can go to that argument as easily as you are, BUT knowing that some people here feel that way I am fully ok with this. I actually prefer it, as it forces some FC/PF utilization and interaction. I don't think that's a terribly thing to want to strive towards.

I'm sure some do, but many don't (I hear Guild members lamenting all the time) so to be frank: when it comes to challenging content I am not interested in PuGs. Never was.
Main reason is, that you do not do this content once but repeated times (often way too often) in order to farm sth. As such I want what is learned to be retained and built upon and not start from scratch with every group.

As for the rewards: there are only 2 categories: player power (useless in a scaling environment like yours) and cosmetic. In the long run, cosmetic cannot motivate people like player power does. Best example: participation rates in savage coil.

[Anzaman]

Darn some people are impatient.

LS told that Ixion spawned, teleported to Lochs, changed to right instance, got to boss area and it died. Whole process took like minute at max. Was fun to watch it die without getting any FATE credit.

Guess only option is to sacrifice life and just sit there, waiting - thanks early pullers.

[Deleted]

I was just thinking of giving BLM a go now that SAM and RDM are at 70. Here's a great RDM guide on their official forums.

Nice thanks!

BLM is great, yea movement sucks but once you start to learn the fights you keep eeking out more dps out of it. Love seeing Fire IV crits, even had the odd Fire I or Blizz IV crit massive.

[Faroth]

I find them super boring as well, which is why I close to never do them.

During the leveling of my WHM from 60-70, I did maybe 5 of them.

What in the world did you do during RauBLOCK, though?

- - - Updated - - -

As for the rewards: there are only 2 categories: player power (useless in a scaling environment like yours) and cosmetic. In the long run, cosmetic cannot motivate people like player power does. Best example: participation rates in savage coil.

B.B.But I thought raiders did it because the challenge was fun, not for some reward that showed off their epeen! Was everything the raiders told me a lie!?

[Anzaman]

What in the world did you do during RauBLOCK, though?

Well, on EU server "RauBLOCK" lasted for 1 day and worked afterwards, so eh.

[Granyala]

What in the world did you do during RauBLOCK, though?

Being too sick to game and sleeping most of the time.
By the time I was in playing condition I didn't encounter any blocks.

[lawow74]

I don't get the appeal of the Ixion mount, myself. To me it looks like a Disco Derpicorn. But I suppose you combine 'new and shiny' with 'I have it and you don't' and some people would ride around on anything.

[Wrecktangle]

and that transition doesn't happen overnight meaning that something starts out super engaging and becomes less and less so until it is no longer that way. It doesn't just go from being engaging to not being engaging instantly.

I'm not saying it happens instantly, or over night. I'm saying the design of the game frequently forces you backwards into old content (not a bad thing), that was barely engaging back then (a moderately bad thing) with newfound gear/power that makes it significantly more trivial (a bad thing). In a vacuum going to old content isn't bad at all. It has a lot of benefits. Going back to old content and steamrolling it isn't fun though (to me).

It hearkens to a specific issue that I don't think I'm smart enough to solve. We want to see and feel more powerful, but we don't want to trivialize things either.

In a traditional RPG you get stronger to face stronger foes, the game gets "harder" as you go on, despite you getting stronger. I don't believe that FF14 captures this essence terribly well. We're getting stronger, but we're facing on average weaker foes. Dungeons overall have been reduced (look at AV, PS, etc.) because they required more than a single iota of effort to succeed. EX trials have gone way down. Look at post Sephirot. compared to before that. Savage has gone way down. Pugs have always been present, but not clearing the first 3 fights within hours of dropping. Pugs, not statics. There are a few outliers like Shinryu and some of the end-game dungeons currently, but I suspect with 4.1 we'll have a new dungeon that offers nothing new/improved over the existing 3 end game ones (not gear wise, I mean engagement/difficulty wise).

To the whole reward system and content discussion. I'd love if FFXIV had a Mythic dungeon type system where dungeons could get progressively more difficult for chances at higher levels of loot or at least more tomes than normal. I personally don't see the point in content that provides no rewards and is just challenging for the sake of being challenging. I'm the type of player that enjoys getting things, but particularly new skills (my personal favorite, which is why I love leveling) and new gear that increases character power. My favorite thing in an MMO, or any game really where it's possible, is a feeling of progression, of getting more powerful of overcome something that used to be a challenge and making those challenges easier. If content doesn't provide something that works towards one of these two goals, I'm far less likely to take part in it simply because I would choose to do the content that actively works towards progressing my character.

I feel similarly.

Had to wait until the end of the week to try do V1 savage. Holy hell the duty finder at the end of the week is bad and weren't any none duty complete required ones in the party finder. 4 runs in a row with people dying to the first fire orbs, people rocking +0 Dexterity melds and doing like 1500 DPS, and other ridiculous shit.

heh that's bad. I wanted to get into a pug, but I ran out of time sadly. I forgot to cap creation for the week so I was running EX roulette all night playing catch up. I don't know why i thought the new tomestone was out next week not this.

As for the rewards: there are only 2 categories: player power (useless in a scaling environment like yours) and cosmetic. In the long run, cosmetic cannot motivate people like player power does. Best example: participation rates in savage coil.

Agreed. Even though the content I designed is scaled it can still offer player power as a reward. In actuality because the content scales up it doesn't even need to ilvl scale down now that I think about it. You'd be doing Sastasha scaled up to level 70. maybe with a 5-10% buff to damage/hp of enemies and a random modifier. Then if you continued onto the next dungeon, it could be say Pharos Sirius, scaled up to level 70, + this time like 10-20% more damage/hp and this time 2 more modifiers (not sure if it should keep existing or be new everytime). Then maybe if you kept going again you'd have a third modifier, 15-30% damage/hp and maybe this time a base modifier kicks in like enemies attack/cast 25% faster, or casters can use healing spells now. So there could be base modifiers and RNG rolled ones. This way your gear always matters ala ceiling is infinite and progression is always available, but the floor is a basic to whatever current level cap is.

Darn some people are impatient.

LS told that Ixion spawned, teleported to Lochs, changed to right instance, got to boss area and it died. Whole process took like minute at max. Was fun to watch it die without getting any FATE credit.

Guess only option is to sacrifice life and just sit there, waiting - thanks early pullers.

Is it possible it wasn't an early pull and that Ixion had been up and another Ixion LS had been sitting waiting for 5-10 minutes?

B.B.But I thought raiders did it because the challenge was fun, not for some reward that showed off their epeen! Was everything the raiders told me a lie!?

Who told you that? I know I've never said that I ONLY raid for the challenge. It is the MAIN reason I play games, but it is not the ONLY reason. Has someone else specifically stated that? I'd be curious who.

Also - you didn't respond to my other post. Did you happen to see my revised Battle Arena idea? I'd like your thoughts.