History: What happened to Constantinople?

[Hooked]

Brown people of a different religion attacked other brown who didn't share their views.

[ati87]

Brown people of a different religion attacked other brown who didn't share their views.

Neither the greeks or the turks are remotely brown unless they have been tanning.....

And nothing about Constantinople was about religion, it was economical expansion based on conquest.

[Donald Hellscream]

The empire was on decline and then along came the Ottomans with their huge cannons and bombarded the everliving shit out of everything.

I know this is highly condensed but thats the gist of it.

[ati87]

The empire was on decline and then along came the Ottomans with their huge cannons and bombarded the everliving shit out of everything.

I know this is highly condensed but thats the gist of it.

plus they transported their ships over land which given the the area wasn't a easy and quick feat

[Noradin]

Oh come on people. Someone linked the song/music video I was referring right below me. Sigh.

Sorry, I cannot see videos unless I click "Quote" and manually copy the link.

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St. Petersburg is the old name... at least do it right, man.

We should call this one "Byzantion" then.

[Ravenblade]

Brown people of a different religion attacked other brown who didn't share their views.

You might want to look up Latin Empire of the East and how it came to be and you might find out it were not-brown people - commonly known as members of the Fourth Crusade - of the same religion "who didn't share their views" either. Views really had nothing to do with it, it was a weakened empire with an old and wealthy capital in a strategically invaluable position. It still is a very expensive location today, just go and try buying a house at the Golden Horn.

[Noradin]

You might want to look up Latin Empire of the East and how it came to be and you might find out it were not-brown people - commonly known as members of the Fourth Crusade - of the same religion "who didn't share their views" either. Views really had nothing to do with it, it was a weakened empire with an old and wealthy capital in a strategically invaluable position. It still is a very expensive location today, just go and try buying a house at the Golden Horn.

If not for the Fourth Crusade that city would have fallen soon, anyway.
It had already lost all its supporting lands and was basically just an unprotected treasure trove.

[Deleted]

I wonder: What happened to Anatolia during the end of SPQR? Was the whole population replaced? What role played the church and why did the Greeks get repelled? I think this is is very dark point of history.

you REALY want to know? your mom happend, thats what.

Please post constructively.

[Ravenblade]

If not for the Fourth Crusade that city would have fallen soon, anyway.
It had already lost all its supporting lands and was basically just an unprotected treasure trove.

Yeah, I already mentioned that a post earlier. The Fourth Crusade just weakened the city, ultimately the Byzantine Empire relied too much on foreign powers to save and support them and were constantly at their whim too to the point of effectively falling behind in own technologies too, case in point: their cannons sucked compared to the Ottoman bombards and they were a lacklustre when put in defensive positions - too small range, damage and too high recoil tending to shatter the walls they stood on. That is not to say that there was a huge gap but Byzantines were conquerors, not defenders and their defensive technologies did little to stop modern Ottoman cannons which were designed by a Hungarian named Orban (no kidding).

[Slant]

We should call this one "Byzantion" then.

You could call it whatever you like. I like the romantic sound of Constantinople, it conjures up pictures of ancient times, great architecture and culture and all that jazz... other than that, it's really meaningless these days. Istanbul it is, Istanbul it should be named.

[Kuntantee]

Most Turks are extremely Anatolian...with something like 14-20% of the average Turk's genes being linked to Central Asia. Most of the change that happened was cultural and not genetic.

Turks themselves are extremely diverse due to migrations and admixture and can range in appearance from looking Eastern European to looking more Central Asian.

Let me enlighten you on this issue as well.

First, Turks are not "extremely Anatolian". Turks are highly (I wouldn't label 80% as extremely) like their neighbors. That is Armenians, Greeks, Persians and Northern Arabs as well as Kurds. However, what you need to consider here is that the invading Seljuks and prior Turkish states (like Hazar state) and some other spent almost a thousand year in Persia and South Caucasus (Kurds, Arabs, Armenians, Persians and Azeri natives). This naturally means inter-marriage and gene assimilation.

The theory you are talking about is Turks moving to Anatolia with bunch of soldiers, then making everyone Turk. Historical records, as far as I know, imply Turks moved in en masse. Considering the upper paragraph, this is more likely. And to be frank, Turkishness has always been about the language and culture than some genetic definition. Turks are unique in this regard that they always incorporated the cultures that they contacted with.

Your last paragraph is spot on. There is influx of European gene in last 200-300 years. Rumelian Turks (partly Anatolian migrants, partly Turkified Europeans) contributed to the Anatolian gene pool. In addition to this, Anatolia has always been a center of immigration. Here, we are talking about a total of at least 1500 years of genetic assimilation with very slow migration. So yeah, the Turks.

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As for the topic. I am in "Constantinople" as of now. The city is a giant shithole. The shithole of the east.

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Conquered by the Ottomans and renamed "Istanbul" sadly. The Churches were turned into mosques and much of the non-Muslim population was massacred during the aftermath and over the next few centuries if I remember correctly.

Constantinople was renamed as Istanbul in 1936 by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Not in 1453 by Mehmed the conqueror. Turks, however, mostly called the city as "Istanbul".

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Given the long history of evil shit the Ottomans did, it is likely to be a draw at best for them.

Are you going to provide some sources for "evil shit" you've been talking about?

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I am not convinced...

He says something, you are not convinced. Atsa's grandfather says something and you believe, even tho the FACT is Turks accepted first constitution in 1870s given many rights to minorities.

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The Ottoman Empire was unusually permissive of varying religions within their borders for the time, and the Sultan who took Constantinople was famously saddened by the extent of the sack of the city. He further declared that all surviving citizens of the city could return to their homes with no further molestation, and rigorously enforced that decree.

Was the Ottoman Empire good by any modern standard? No.

Was it considerably more tolerant than most European empires of the time? All available information says "yes."

These trivial information is somehow hidden to certain people.

[Deleted]

you REALY want to know? your mom happend, thats what.

That's how low moderation here dropped? Do I really have to reply to this?

[Kuntantee]

If we're going to criticise the Ottomans, it's best to do so for the things they actually did wrong; namely in the form of their administrative practices, slavery, and intermittent shitty treatment of ethnic and religious minorities.

Ottomans Turks did not just "intermittently" target ethnic minorities, they targeted everyone including Turks. Or more precisely, any breathing creature that did not do what the state wanted. That treatment was not special to ethnic minorities as some of you here believe. some 10k to 40k (alevi, true-born Turkmen) Turks were slaughtered between Safavid/Ottoman war period in 16th century. There are also a shit ton of rebellions in Anatolia, like Celali Rebellions.

[Techno-Druid]

Let me enlighten you on this issue as well.

First, Turks are not "extremely Anatolian". Turks are highly (I wouldn't label 80% as extremely) like their neighbors. That is Armenians, Greeks, Persians and Northern Arabs as well as Kurds. However, what you need to consider here is that the invading Seljuks and prior Turkish states (like Hazar state) and some other spent almost a thousand year in Persia and South Caucasus (Kurds, Arabs, Armenians, Persians and Azeri natives). This naturally means inter-marriage and gene assimilation.

The theory you are talking about is Turks moving to Anatolia with bunch of soldiers, then making everyone Turk. Historical records, as far as I know, imply Turks moved in en masse. Considering the upper paragraph, this is more likely. And to be frank, Turkishness has always been about the language and culture than some genetic definition. Turks are unique in this regard that they always incorporated the cultures that they contacted with.

Your last paragraph is spot on. There is influx of European gene in last 200-300 years. Rumelian Turks (partly Anatolian migrants, partly Turkified Europeans) contributed to the Anatolian gene pool. In addition to this, Anatolia has always been a center of immigration. Here, we are talking about a total of at least 1500 years of genetic assimilation with very slow migration. So yeah, the Turks.

Thanks for clarifying, my main point was that in terms of genetics, Turks aren't closely related to the Turkic peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in the same way the ancestors of the Finnish/Saami/Hungarians are mostly European despite their cultural/linguistic ancestry pointing to North Asia. Or the Ashkenazi Jews that are overwhelmingly European (mostly Central and Southern) with little Near Eastern ancestry.

[I Push Buttons]

Ottomans Turks did not just "intermittently" target ethnic minorities, they targeted everyone including Turks. Or more precisely, any breathing creature that did not do what the state wanted. That treatment was not special to ethnic minorities as some of you here believe. some 10k to 40k (alevi, true-born Turkmen) Turks were slaughtered between Safavid/Ottoman war period in 16th century. There are also a shit ton of rebellions in Anatolia, like Celali Rebellions.

Are you really using 10,000 Turks killed 500 years ago as an excuse to offhandedly dismiss the genocide of a million and a half Armenians?

[Kuntantee]

Thanks for clarifying, my main point was that in terms of genetics, Turks aren't closely related to the Turkic peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in the same way the ancestors of the Finnish/Saami/Hungarians are mostly European despite their cultural/linguistic ancestry pointing to North Asia. Or the Ashkenazi Jews that are overwhelmingly European (mostly Central and Southern) with little Near Eastern ancestry.

Yes, although Turks seems to preserved their culture a bit more compared to European counterparts. Especially on military culture and army and state philosophy. Gastronomy, clothing, religion (this is an interesting one) etc. are mostly completely assimilated.

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Are you really using 10,000 Turks killed 500 years ago as an excuse to offhandedly dismiss the genocide of a million and a half Armenians?

We are talking about earlier periods.

[Teaon]

As a history researcher, listen to what @Didactic is saying, he knows his shit.

[Kuntantee]

As a history researcher, listen to what @Didactic is saying, he knows his shit.

He's talking pretty much the basic stuff about late Byzantine Empire period. Although he forgot to mention Komnenian restoration.

[Elegiac]

He's talking pretty much the basic stuff about late Byzantine Empire period. Although he forgot to mention Komnenian restoration.

Largely because it's not pertinent to the discussion of the decline of the Eastern Empire. You might as well complain about my omission of the Macedonian Renaissance.

[Chrysia]

Are you really using 10,000 Turks killed 500 years ago as an excuse to offhandedly dismiss the genocide of a million and a half Armenians?

What the fuck does the Armenian Genocide have to do with the Final Fall of the Byzantine Empire?