[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[ItachiZaku]

Pretty sure GRRM has all but confirmed R+L=J is true. If the story is to be believed, when D&D got the job making GoT, they were allowed to ask him ONE question. We were never given details, but all we were told is that "A major fan theory has been confirmed".

Seeing as it's the biggest, longest held fan theory in aSoIaF, it makes sense they were talking about Jon's parentage.

I thought it was Yara and Ellaria getting it on...

[Gallahadd]

I thought it was Yara and Ellaria getting it on...

No, that was just in your dreams.

[Deleted]

What are the odds on dumb cunt Cersei killing a dragon only for it to get rez'd by frostbitten Darth Maul?

Obvious forshadowing that a dragon is going to get rekt by that ballista.

[Highwhale]

Pretty sure GRRM has all but confirmed R+L=J is true. If the story is to be believed, when D&D got the job making GoT, they were allowed to ask him ONE question. We were never given details, but all we were told is that "A major fan theory has been confirmed".

Seeing as it's the biggest, longest held fan theory in aSoIaF, it makes sense they were talking about Jon's parentage.

1 - GRRM never confirmed R+L=J.

2 - Yea i know about this "test" but it was never said D&D answered right. Check interview again please. (Test was about GRRM asked them who was Jon's mother and they said it was Lyanna).

3 - I believe R+L=J is red herring. Too many hints in first book. Plus GRRM said Ned's vision of ToJ in Black Cell is not 100% correct since he was dreaming and had fever. Its possible that Lyanna wasn't at ToJ and Ned found her somewhere else.

[Gallahadd]

1 - GRRM never confirmed R+L=J.

2 - Yea i know about this "test" but it was never said D&D answered right. Check interview again please. (Test was about GRRM asked them who was Jon's mother and they said it was Lyanna).

3 - I believe R+L=J is red herring.

1: Well, he's not going too is he... He wants to save that for the book.
2: It was said, but it was heavily implied... Much like Jon's heritage!
3: That's fair enough, but at this stage, there's SO much evidence in favour of it, it would require something of an asspull to make anyone else work.

[cubby]

I am talking about books not show:

Ok - good thing this forum isn't about both . . . oh, wait . . . .

1 - Even if at ToJ Lyanna gave birth its doesn't prove what babe was Jon. Main argument of R+L=J fans is Ned too honorable to have a bastard. When we know Ned would without hesitations cut off Theon's head should Balon Greyjoy rebel again. I mean Ned wasn't saint man how many people try to imagine.

The honor isn't an issue - he already admitted he had a bastard. The issue is the scene where Bran sees Lyanna give birth. You may think Ned has less honor than others, but he didn't fuck his sister. So NOT Ned's son, which is the issue I'm addressing.

2 - I don't care about show story since D&D made it complete garbage. Jon could be Rhaergar's and Lyanna's son in show but it doesn't mean GRRM will make the same in books.

Not sure why any of us can carry on a serious conversation with you if you ignore the show story line - it's the issue at hand when addressing Jon's lineage. Until Martin can be bothered to finish the next book of course . . . lol. I don't see why Martin wouldn't, though, it makes a lot of sense in a number of ways and makes the throne issue even more muddled.

ROFL Rhaergar was Aerys's son...

I didn't make reference to Rhaergars father, but his brother, who I correctly identified. ROFL?




(Not me)

Yea in books there more than just 3 sand snakes and each of then was from different mother (Oberyn their common father). Show Dorne just butchered and represents shadow of it's from the books.

I don't like Brienne in books but in show she even more pathetic. Instead of doing her duty she live in past and failing her current Lords.

You need to attribute other people's quotes to them, not me. Just fyi.

[Highwhale]

3: That's fair enough, but at this stage, there's SO much evidence in favour of it, it would require something of an asspull to make anyone else work.

I always wondered. Lets believe Lyanna did really gave birth and father was Rhaergar. But there ZERO evidences that babe was Jon. Even in books. With good writing ToJ babe could be even Dany or Aegon.

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The honor isn't an issue - he already admitted he had a bastard. The issue is the scene where Bran sees Lyanna give birth. You may think Ned has less honor than others, but he didn't fuck his sister. So NOT Ned's son, which is the issue I'm addressing.

And you completely ignore what i typed. I am talking about books not show:

Not sure why any of us can carry on a serious conversation with you if you ignore the show story line - it's the issue at hand when addressing Jon's lineage. Until Martin can be bothered to finish the next book of course . . . lol. I don't see why Martin wouldn't, though, it makes a lot of sense in a number of ways and makes the throne issue even more muddled.

Not sure why i still talking with you considering you dont even know who was Rhaergar and ignoring book's fact.

[Gallahadd]

I always wondered. Lets believe Lyanna did really gave birth and father was Rhaergar. But there ZERO evidences that babe was Jon. Even in books. With good writing ToJ babe could be even Dany or Aegon.

Couldn't be Dany, her birth is well recorded and has been catalogued by numerous sources.

Could be Aegon (assuming you mean Little Griff). Except the current theory is that he is actually a Blackfyre and a "Mummer's Dragon" raised and trained by Varys Et Al as a backup, should Dany go... Well, should Dany go the way she is currently headed, and truly become her Father's Daughter.

Also, if you're willing to agree that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a kid, and that child WAS the one that was delivered in the Tower of Joy... Then in that scene we see Ned Stark at Lyanna's bedside, where she makes him promise... Something. He then returns home, with a new child that he mysteriously sired on the same campiagn, and refuses to reveal the mother of.

I mean, yes... It's not 100% confirmed, but saying that there's ZERO evidence is stretching the truth to breaking point... And a little beyond.

[Tonkaden]

I always wondered. Lets believe Lyanna did really gave birth and father was Rhaergar. But there ZERO evidences that babe was Jon. Even in books. With good writing ToJ babe could be even Dany or Aegon.

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And you completely ignore what i typed. I am talking about books not show:



Not sure why i still talking with you considering you dont even know who was Rhaergar and ignoring book's fact.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news bro, but the show trumps the books now. Good ole George probably wont ever finish the 7th book. The due is 68 , not in the best shape. It has taken him how long to write the 6th book? He will be over 80 by the time he finishes the 7th book.

The show is all that matters for now. The amount of people who even read the books is a vast minority of the amount of people who know what game of thrones is.

Your failure to acknowledge the show is laughable at best and petty at worst. In the show, Jon is Rhaegar's son. This is undisputed and confirmed by HBO, who did this WITH Martin's stamp of approval, even if he wasn't totally happy with it.

[Highwhale]

Couldn't be Dany, her birth is well recorded and has been catalogued by numerous sources.

The only survivor from Dragonstone except Dany herself was her brother who didn't last long and had some mental issues like his father. Plus google Lemon Tree In Braavos - could find some really good analyses about Dany heritage.

Could be Aegon (assuming you mean Little Griff). Except the current theory is that he is actually a Blackfyre and a "Mummer's Dragon" raised and trained by Varys Et Al as a backup, should Dany go... Well, should Dany go the way she is currently headed, and truly become her Father's Daughter.

Yes Little Griff. There also theory what Aegon is real Ned's and Ashara's son but it all theories. Nothing confirmed - even R+L=J.

I mean, yes... It's not 100% confirmed, but saying that there's ZERO evidence is stretching the truth to breaking point... And a little beyond.

In books there really like ZERO evidences what ToJ babe was Jon. People started assuming it on next chain:

Ned too honor dude to have bastard! - Oh Jon probably Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news bro, but the show trumps the books now. Good ole George probably wont ever finish the 7th book. The due is 68 , not in the best shape. It has taken him how long to write the 6th book? He will be over 80 by the time he finishes the 7th book.

The show is all that matters for now. The amount of people who even read the books is a vast minority of the amount of people who know what game of thrones is.

Your failure to acknowledge the show is laughable at best and petty at worst. In the show, Jon is Rhaegar's son. This is undisputed and confirmed by HBO, who did this WITH Martin's stamp of approval, even if he wasn't totally happy with it.

Hate to disappoint you dude but i don't give a fuck about D&D fanfiction. GRRM's books is primal source and ONLY source i will believe. Also GRRM have nice answers for you and every person who says he will die before finish the books:

Your failure to acknowledge the show is laughable at best and petty at worst. In the show, Jon is Rhaegar's son. This is undisputed and confirmed by HBO, who did this WITH Martin's stamp of approval, even if he wasn't totally happy with it.

Nonsense. Like Ned said - Is that what you tell yourself at night?

Some fun stuff.

[Tonkaden]

The only survivor from Dragonstone except Dany herself was her brother who didn't last long and had some mental issues like his father. Plus google Lemon Tree In Braavos - could find some really good analyses about Dany heritage.



Yes Little Griff. There also theory what Aegon is real Ned's and Ashara's son but it all theories. Nothing confirmed - even R+L=J.



In books there really like ZERO evidences what ToJ babe was Jon. People started assuming it on next chain:

Ned too honor dude to have bastard! - Oh Jon probably Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew!



Hate to disappoint you dude but i don't give a fuck about D&D fanfiction. GRRM's books is primal source and ONLY source i will believe. Also GRRM have nice answers for you and every person who says he will die before finish the books:





Nonsense. Like Ned said - Is that what you tell yourself at night?

Some fun stuff.

The dude will NEVER finish the 7th book. He will be in the ground. The 6th book is probably 2-3 years away. That's 9 years to release the 6th one. He isn't gonna make it. Gonna suck for all of you "canon" die hards that are left hanging. You will be left with the show's conclusion or no conclusion at all.

[Highwhale]

The dude will NEVER finish the 7th book. He will be in the ground. The 6th book is probably 2-3 years away. That's 9 years to release the 6th one. He isn't gonna make it. Gonna suck for all of you "canon" die hards that are left hanging. You will be left with the show's conclusion or no conclusion at all.

Hah. Silly person who can't deal with fact that not all people praise to show. Get the fuck out. You pathetic.

[Tonkaden]

Hah. Silly person who can't deal with fact that not all people praise to show. Get the fuck out. You pathetic.

I never said anything about praising or not praising. I liked the books and show equally. Its just cold, hard facts man. By the time the 6th book releases, dude is gonna be 72 lol. Another 10 years for the 7th book. Not great odds, considering the dude is tree fiddy. Odds are that you will be left with zero conclusion, unless he decides to make the 6th book the final one.

No need to get butt hurt bro.

[Highwhale]

I never said anything about praising or not praising. I liked the books and show equally. Its just cold, hard facts man. By the time the 6th book releases, dude is gonna be 72 lol. Another 10 years for the 7th book. Not great odds, considering the dude is tree fiddy. Odds are that you will be left with zero conclusion, unless he decides to make the 6th book the final one.

No need to get butt hurt bro.

You have evidences what GRRM not already finished 6th book or even both? Last book was released before show made it to TV and who knows maybe GRRM not releasing any more books until show ends is part of GRRM/HBO contract? I can understand this politic - everyone will compare how books and show go divorce. Also ever heard about Wheel of Time series?

[Acidz]

You have evidences what GRRM not already finished 6th book or even both? Last book was released before show made it to TV and who knows maybe GRRM not releasing any more books until show ends is part of GRRM/HBO contract? I can understand this politic - everyone will compare how books and show go divorce. Also ever heard about Wheel of Time series?

Well, Brandon Sanderson finishing WoT is about the same as D&D running ahead of GRRM with the GoT-story. Yeah, he sped it all up and a lot of shit suddenly happened, but the writing was piss poor in comparison.

[Gallahadd]

In books there really like ZERO evidences what ToJ babe was Jon. People started assuming it on next chain

Except for the scene I mentioned... From the chapter just before Ned "Confesses" when we get the first flashback to the tower of Joy. It mentions Lyanna and her making him promise something, a promise that is never revealed.

Then Ned returns home with Baby Jon, and refuses to divulge who his mother is.

Not to mention all the stuff about the Tourney at Harrenhal, where Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his Queen of Love and Beauty. Shortly before "Kidnapping" her and running away from both their families.

He then, during one of the most pivotal battles in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, leaves three of his Kingsguard, including two of the greatest swordsman who have EVER lived, Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, to guard the Tower of Joy.

I would say there is evidence of SOMETHING happening there. Rhaegar and Lyanna were clearly an item, something important happened in the Tower of Joy, which left Lyanna stark lying in a bed soaked with blood, even though she was nowhere near anything which could have injured her, and this was just short of a year after she'd been "Kidnapped", Ned then swore a promise he was willing to take to his grave, and shortly after arrived home with a bastard child, whose mother he refused to name, even to his wife.

All of this happened at a time where Robert was at his berserking peak, and would have without a shadow of a doubt murdered a Targaryen heir, especially one fathered by his arch nemesis Rhaegar, WITH the woman he loved, Lyanna, who had scorned him, and who could have lead a rebellion against him, given time.

And this is all 100% based on evidence and theorycrafting from the BOOKS. As the show has already proven this theory to be true within the GoT world, so there's no more need to theorycraft about it, but (some)book readers still like to discuss it, because there is always a chance things will play out differently there.

Is it totally spelled out? No.

Is there evidence enough to support it, given GRRM's notoriously vague storytelling? (see Maggy the Frog and the Valonqar, see the Prince Who Was Promised, see Azor Ahai) I think there is, and a large majority of the readers agree.

Is it okay for you to disagree, and think the theory is wrong? Of course, everyone is allowed to have their own theories. I for one, think The Hound is going to be revealed as Azor Ahai.

Is it okay for you to KEEP going on about how we're all wrong, stupid and only Show viewers who have never picked up a copy of the book could ever think something so stupid as R+L=J could be true, and that it's so clearly weak storytelling by D&D? No, no it is not.

[Zayv]

I've liked her and the character since the beginning. I'm curious about her book counterpart. We know they aged up all of the young characters to benefit the show, so Dany would still be a young queen, unlearned aside from her 10-12 year old translater friends, so I could see her not coming off as all that intelligent - which lends to her having some solid council along the way (Selmy, Jorah, Tyrion). I wonder if the books make her seem young and dumb, and Emilia is just playing what she is given.

Yeah I forgot that she's basically a kid in the books right? And they worked off the book for years. So she's not gonna be that complex of a character yet.

Made it awkward when Ned says "She's little more than a child". Uh....you mean that actress that just had a nude scene? That was a full grown woman, lol.

[Tonkaden]

You have evidences what GRRM not already finished 6th book or even both? Last book was released before show made it to TV and who knows maybe GRRM not releasing any more books until show ends is part of GRRM/HBO contract? I can understand this politic - everyone will compare how books and show go divorce. Also ever heard about Wheel of Time series?

Uh yea, we do have evidence. If he was done, why wouldn't he be releasing it? Its NOT done. He has said it himself that it wont release til late 18 / early 19. This is stuff you can search for man.

[ItachiZaku]

Made it awkward when Ned says "She's little more than a child". Uh....you mean that actress that just had a nude scene? That was a full grown woman, lol.

Man, I remember hearing that all of them were like 9-13 (Dany, Robb, Jon etc) and seeing Emilia's pretty, naked little pale ass and thinking... FUCK, should I feel ashamed or bad about... that cute little ass... I mean, we really probably should. And then when Drogo TAKES her...

As least for Dany, it makes sense for her to be man handled by her brother and others, while being like 10 years old, and over the years growing into what she is now, but for an of age young woman, it's so much less likely. From someone of an age that wouldn't know any better to one that very much does but is very abused by literally everyone she should be trusting... I mean, that type of person will never, ever command dragons.

[tehealadin]

Except for the scene I mentioned... From the chapter just before Ned "Confesses" when we get the first flashback to the tower of Joy. It mentions Lyanna and her making him promise something, a promise that is never revealed.

Then Ned returns home with Baby Jon, and refuses to divulge who his mother is.

Not to mention all the stuff about the Tourney at Harrenhal, where Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his Queen of Love and Beauty. Shortly before "Kidnapping" her and running away from both their families.

He then, during one of the most pivotal battles in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, leaves three of his Kingsguard, including two of the greatest swordsman who have EVER lived, Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, to guard the Tower of Joy.

I would say there is evidence of SOMETHING happening there. Rhaegar and Lyanna were clearly an item, something important happened in the Tower of Joy, which left Lyanna stark lying in a bed soaked with blood, even though she was nowhere near anything which could have injured her, and this was just short of a year after she'd been "Kidnapped", Ned then swore a promise he was willing to take to his grave, and shortly after arrived home with a bastard child, whose mother he refused to name, even to his wife.

All of this happened at a time where Robert was at his berserking peak, and would have without a shadow of a doubt murdered a Targaryen heir, especially one fathered by his arch nemesis Rhaegar, WITH the woman he loved, Lyanna, who had scorned him, and who could have lead a rebellion against him, given time.

And this is all 100% based on evidence and theorycrafting from the BOOKS. As the show has already proven this theory to be true within the GoT world, so there's no more need to theorycraft about it, but (some)book readers still like to discuss it, because there is always a chance things will play out differently there.

Is it totally spelled out? No.

Is there evidence enough to support it, given GRRM's notoriously vague storytelling? (see Maggy the Frog and the Valonqar, see the Prince Who Was Promised, see Azor Ahai) I think there is, and a large majority of the readers agree.

Is it okay for you to disagree, and think the theory is wrong? Of course, everyone is allowed to have their own theories. I for one, think The Hound is going to be revealed as Azor Ahai.

Is it okay for you to KEEP going on about how we're all wrong, stupid and only Show viewers who have never picked up a copy of the book could ever think something so stupid as R+L=J could be true, and that it's so clearly weak storytelling by D&D? No, no it is not.

And Ned says to Jon, "You might not have my name, but you have my blood". We never hear him directly refer to him as son, but that they shared blood. Obviously, there could be reasons for this, to spare Cat's feelings, however this also hints at R+L=J.