Vol'jin's offspring (?)

[Techno-Druid]

All of Vol'jins children are unknown and have no power in the game. So it would be wierd if suddenly an unknown troll took over the leadership of the Darkspears.... Even though they do need a leader, fast.

That's why I said that it would be a good idea to introduce a character or characters and have them develop as characters. Besides, Vol'jin wasn't given any significant development until Cata.

[Ramz]

99% blizzard doesnt give a shit and or forgot, because we dont see any at his funeral.

But I like the idea for sure.

99% blizzard doesnt give a shit and or forgot, because we dont see any at his funeral.

But I like the idea for sure.

Not an elf or human, not important.

Pretty sure Blizzard forgot about Vol'Jin's kids. But I am totally down for race campaigns.

Pretty much.

Blizzard just doesn't care about exploring other races. We have split for darlings and bastard children. If Blizzard would treat their own lore seriously they wouldn't kill Vol'Jin (especially like that) to begin with.

Not an elf or human, not important.

Pretty sure Blizzard forgot about Vol'Jin's kids. But I am totally down for race campaigns.

The other two are Failure'jin and Disappointment'jin. From their birth they proved to be worthy of their names and eventually they transcended Trollhood. Failure'jin became the Loa of disappointment and Disappointment'jin became the Loa of failure. Because they couldn't even get that right.

Vol'Jin is not a failure. He appeared more times as military commander than any other racial leader (that wasn't high king/ warchief). And each of his assaults turned into sucess even when having massive disadvantage. He had far less fails than Sylvanas and yet it's Sylvanas that gets constantly praised, and Vol'Jin gets comments like this. :/

As for main subject. The moment Vol'Jin died troll development died. If Blizzard would at least give half as much care for other races as they do for humans they'd in advance preapare replacement, and not exactly it had to be child of chieftain. I know that any new Darkspear leader is bound to be disappointing. Because that means said new character needs time to grow to be prominent so people could give damn about him. Seeing how they handled Baine gives me no hope that new leader would be by any chance exciting. And Vol'Jin's biggest issue was that majority of his development happened offscreen, and he wasn't shown much in action. I don't have proof to believe Blizzard learned from their mistakes and would do something about it.

Aaaand all they needed to do was to give couple of quests for Vol'Jin to make him do something cool. People were sold on two quests where Garrosh was acting different than usual >.>

[Techno-Druid]

Pretty much.

Blizzard just doesn't care about exploring other races. We have split for darlings and bastard children. If Blizzard would treat their own lore seriously they wouldn't kill Vol'Jin (especially like that) to begin with.









Vol'Jin is not a failure. He appeared more times as military commander than any other racial leader (that wasn't high king/ warchief). And each of his assaults turned into sucess even when having massive disadvantage. He had far less fails than Sylvanas and yet it's Sylvanas that gets constantly praised, and Vol'Jin gets comments like this. :/

As for main subject. The moment Vol'Jin died troll development died. If Blizzard would at least give half as much care for other races as they do for humans they'd in advance preapare replacement, and not exactly it had to be child of chieftain. I know that any new Darkspear leader is bound to be disappointing. Because that means said new character needs time to grow to be prominent so people could give damn about him. Seeing how they handled Baine gives me no hope that new leader would be by any chance exciting. And Vol'Jin's biggest issue was that majority of his development happened offscreen, and he wasn't shown much in action. I don't have proof to believe Blizzard learned from their mistakes and would do something about it.

Aaaand all they needed to do was to give couple of quests for Vol'Jin to make him do something cool. People were sold on two quests where Garrosh was acting different than usual >.>

Imo Blizzard needs to make an expcovering every single playable race, including updating every starting zone in both graphics and storyline, adding more customization and subraces.

It also wouldn't hurt if they revisited Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor and changed the old world to where it's recovered from the Shattering.

[Aucald]

Personally, I think Vol'jin suffered mightily as a character in WoW by having very little development of his own - even with an ascension to Warchief Vol'jin was still mostly unexplored within the game, appearing only briefly in WoD in a handful of scenes with no real story of his own, and having no real connection to the story happening as part of that expansion. Even his biggest in-game story-arc, the Insurrection storyline toward the end of MoP, didn't really seem to feature much of him. A couple of quests provide a basic outline of his plight, and there was of course the scenario that featured him that set it all up (when Vol'jin was nearly assassinated by Garrosh's lieutenant Rak'gor). Of Thrall's inner council Vol'jin is the second-least developed by MoP, with only Lor'themar Theron probably succeeding him until MoP and especially the Thunder King patch itself. In the game itself Vol'jin is largely, and oddly, very out of focus for what would go on to be a major character.

The lion's share of Vol'jin's development actually happens to be found in his novel, "Shadows of the Horde," which actually changed my personal opinion on Vol'jin from a more or less neutral one to a cautiously positive one, but unfortunately that forward momentum in Vol'jin's characterization was completely halted when WoD hit and he was shown as an entirely static and uninvolved figure. This stasis, and for those without the benefit of reading "Shadows of the Horde," robs almost all the impact of Vol'jin's death at the Broken Shore. I can't fault anyone for seeing Vol'jin as a failure of a leader because of the frankly terrible way his character was handled in the most important vehicle for telling the ongoing story (the game itself) even though I don't share in the opinion myself. I believe he would be received very differently in the events of "Shadow of the Horde" were somehow told in-game, through quests or cutscenes or some other method of relating the essence of the story.

[Mehrunes]

Vol'Jin is not a failure. He appeared more times as military commander than any other racial leader (that wasn't high king/ warchief). And each of his assaults turned into sucess even when having massive disadvantage. He had far less fails than Sylvanas and yet it's Sylvanas that gets constantly praised, and Vol'Jin gets comments like this. :/

Ahahaha, he did what now? In W3 he wasn't even leading the Darkspears at Hyjal because he was busy doing fuck all. When Daelin invaded his village made of sticks and shit, he transformed Rexxar, Rokhan and Chen into spirit wyverns and then was forced to retreat because that did nothing. After that he stopped leading and only offered counsel to those who continued the fight elsewhere.

The next time he was "commanding" anything was in the Battle for the Undercity, where all he did was sit in a demolisher and shoot at Lordaeron's walls, even though no member of Varimathras' uprising manned them since they all holed up below, despite the path being open from the start and despite the fact the Horde was there to recapture it, not demolish it.

Then it was retaking of the Echo Isles. The same Echo Isles that Master Gardin, personally picked by Vol'jin, failed to retake for years. And your military mastermind Vol'jin needed the might of the Horde against one shitty Witch Doctor. And still would have failed if it wasn't for a literal divine intervention.

During 4.1 he merely informed various people of the Zandalari threat that he learned about due to no merit of his own, then offered a quest to kill Daakara. In 5.1 the expedition he led ended with him getting backstabbed from the front. Then comes Shadow of the Horde. And the first (and only) time military genius Vol'jin did anything meaningful ever. Whoo, you go Vol'jin.

After that was the Darkspear rebellion where everything is already handed to him on a silver platter, starting with pre-liberated Echo Isles, thanks to Thrall. The only real input from Vol'jin was sending half-naked morons straight into the Iron Juggernaut after the few sorry siege engines he brought with him were obliterated. If it wasn't for reinforcements from Sylvanas, Lor'themar, Jaina and Varian, he'd be biting dust. If it wasn't for Tyrande, he'd be sitting at the gates of Orgrimmar till kingdom's come.

Next was WoD where he did pretty much nothing, then Legion, where all he did was managing to get backstabbed from the front again.

One lord of war you got here.

And let's compare numbers. We've got 7 cases of Vol'jin in command. Sylvanas? She led Thalassian forces during Second War. And during Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas. The Forsaken insurrection against the Scourge. Thwarting Dreadlord forces. Personally led at least one attack against the Scarlet Crusade. Howling Fjord. Battle for the Undercity. Icecrown in 3.3. Gilneas. Silverpine. Andorhal. Bladefist Bay. Broken Shore. Stormheim.

Even discounting Stormheim since that happened after she became Warchief, she personally commanded more fights than the Warchiefs she served under. Let alone Beg'jin. And other than the Scourge invasion (where the Scourge army was simply overwhelming and Sylvanas was still defending the land so well it pissed Arthas off so hard he threw a tantrum) and the events of 3.3, she won them all.

[Al Gorefiend]

Not a elf or human. Lore won't be written, or it will be comedic relief

[Arrashi]

snip

He suffered because he was shallow, one dimensional protagonist spewing quotes from anime "I fight for my friends" who existed solely to stand against shallow, one dimensional villain.

[Al Gorefiend]

Ahahaha, he did what now? In W3 he wasn't even leading the Darkspears at Hyjal because he was busy doing fuck all. When Daelin invaded his village made of sticks and shit, he transformed Rexxar, Rokhan and Chen into spirit wyverns and then was forced to retreat because that did nothing. After that he stopped leading and only offered counsel to those who continued the fight elsewhere.

The next time he was "commanding" anything was in the Battle for the Undercity, where all he did was sit in a demolisher and shoot at Lordaeron's walls, even though no member of Varimathras' uprising manned them since they all holed up below, despite the path being open from the start and despite the fact the Horde was there to recapture it, not demolish it.

Then it was retaking of the Echo Isles. The same Echo Isles that Master Gardin, personally picked by Vol'jin, failed to retake for years. And your military mastermind Vol'jin needed the might of the Horde against one shitty Witch Doctor. And still would have failed if it wasn't for a literal divine intervention.

During 4.1 he merely informed various people of the Zandalari threat that he learned about due to no merit of his own, then offered a quest to kill Daakara. In 5.1 the expedition he led ended with him getting backstabbed from the front. Then comes Shadow of the Horde. And the first (and only) time military genius Vol'jin did anything meaningful ever. Whoo, you go Vol'jin.

After that was the Darkspear rebellion where everything is already handed to him on a silver platter, starting with pre-liberated Echo Isles, thanks to Thrall. The only real input from Vol'jin was sending half-naked morons straight into the Iron Juggernaut after the few sorry siege engines he brought with him were obliterated. If it wasn't for reinforcements from Sylvanas, Lor'themar, Jaina and Varian, he'd be biting dust. If it wasn't for Tyrande, he'd be sitting at the gates of Orgrimmar till kingdom's come.

Next was WoD where he did pretty much nothing, then Legion, where all he did was managing to get backstabbed from the front again.

One lord of war you got here.

And let's compare numbers. We've got 7 cases of Vol'jin in command. Garrosh led Horde forces in Borean Tundra (and was the general of all Horde forces in Northrend). Icecrown Citadel. Initial attack on Gilneas. Attack against the Quilboar in Baine's short story. First invasion of Ashenvale. Twilight Highlands. Northwatch. Theramore. Naval fight against Varian near Durotar. Domination Point. Would you look at that, more than Vol'jin. And that's not even counting his rule of Mag'har, since he was way too emo back then, or his leadership after the Horde rebelled against him.

Sylvanas? She led Thalassian forces during Second War. And during Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas. The Forsaken insurrection against the Scourge. Thwarting Dreadlord forces. Personally led at least one attack against the Scarlet Crusade. Howling Fjord. Battle for the Undercity. Icecrown in 3.3. Gilneas. Silverpine. Andorhal. Bladefist Bay. Broken Shore. Stormheim. Damn, even more than Garrosh.

Vol'jin failed as a warchief because he wasn't an elf. Blizzard only wants to write elves and the fans get in a frenzy like gay piranhas whenever an elf is mentioned. Seemed like killing Vol'jin to replace with an elf would be obvious

[Arrashi]

Then it was retaking of the Echo Isles. The same Echo Isles that Master Gardin, personally picked by Vol'jin, failed to retake for years. And your military mastermind Vol'jin needed the might of the Horde against one shitty Witch Doctor. And still would have failed if it wasn't for a literal divine intervention.

Ok hold on here buddy. Ramz proved long ago that zalazane was much stronger necromancer than kel'thuzad. And on top of that he wielded dreaded coconut magic.
Only mudmug could top that.

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Vol'jin failed as a warchief because he wasn't an elf. Blizzard only wants to write elves and the fans get in a frenzy like gay piranhas whenever an elf is mentioned. Seemed like killing Vol'jin to replace with an elf would be obvious

He failed as warchief because he was plot device.

[Aucald]

He suffered because he was shallow, one dimensional protagonist spewing quotes from anime "I fight for my friends" who existed solely to stand against shallow, one dimensional villain.

I don't watch a lot of anime - is fighting for one's friends a common refrain? "Shadows of the Horde" gives Vol'jin a lot more in terms of dimensionality and depth, but as an external novel to the game it's only present if you actively seek it out. As for the antagonist (presumably Garrosh) I didn't really find him to be one-dimensional - Garrosh was a rather complicated individual at the end of his story-arc.

[Mehrunes]

The lion's share of Vol'jin's development actually happens to be found in his novel, "Shadows of the Horde," which actually changed my personal opinion on Vol'jin from a more or less neutral one to a cautiously positive one, but unfortunately that forward momentum in Vol'jin's characterization was completely halted when WoD hit and he was shown as an entirely static and uninvolved figure. This stasis, and for those without the benefit of reading "Shadows of the Horde," robs almost all the impact of Vol'jin's death at the Broken Shore. I can't fault anyone for seeing Vol'jin as a failure of a leader because of the frankly terrible way his character was handled in the most important vehicle for telling the ongoing story (the game itself) even though I don't share in the opinion myself. I believe he would be received very differently in the events of "Shadow of the Horde" were somehow told in-game, through quests or cutscenes or some other method of relating the essence of the story.

I read Shadows of the Horde. Pretty decent book on its own, goes even better when compared to other Warcraft books specifically. And while it wasn't the best in my opinion, it was far from the worst. But when it comes to Help'jin himself, his characterization there, to me, is summed up in "way too little, way too late" (the fact that even later lore reverted back into nothingness didn't help there). Not enough to establish any benefit of the doubt other than maybe considering it as a luck streak.

[mizeri]

Hey hey hey. Orc lives mattered too once.

it did, and everyone freaked out

[Arrashi]

I don't watch a lot of anime - is fighting for one's friends a common refrain? "Shadows of the Horde" gives Vol'jin a lot more in terms of dimensionality and depth, but as an external novel to the game it's only present if you actively seek it out. As for the antagonist (presumably Garrosh) I didn't really find him to be one-dimensional - Garrosh was a rather complicated individual at the end of his story-arc.

1. Its super common in all naruto-branch anime. And it makes even biggest weebs cringe.
2. You know reading shadows of the horde is like picking cooking book and finding a completely diffrent recipe for a dish you know by heart. Its this "no fucking way" feeling. If there was anything to tie his characterization in book to....whatever they did to him in games.
3. Garrosh at the end of his arc isn't complicated. He is straight out "pure evil" trope villain i seen in years. He outright acknowledges himself as villain, he outright acknowledges that his only motivation is commiting heinous acts for the sake of them. And his only goal is to commit more evil. He lacks any depth, even tiniest detail that would make him interesting. Garrosh was embodiment of:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz
To quote certain parody of old jrpg "I don't need any reason with tittle like dark lord".

[Aucald]

1. Its super common in all naruto-branch anime. And it makes even biggest weebs cringe.

Well, that would explain it. I have no idea what Naruto even is, though some cursory Googling shows it is about magic-using ninjas of some kind.

2. You know reading shadows of the horde is like picking cooking book and finding a completely diffrent recipe for a dish you know by heart. Its this "no fucking way" feeling. If there was anything to tie his characterization in book to....whatever they did to him in games.

I'm not really sure what you mean, here. You mean you would opt not to read the book because it changes what you already know or feel about a character? Tying his characterization from the book to the game was the essence of my original post - well, the failure to tie his characterization together. "Shadows of the Horde" does leave you with a kind of schizophrenic view of him, I guess.

3. Garrosh at the end of his arc isn't complicated. He is straight out "pure evil" trope villain i seen in years. He outright acknowledges himself as villain, he outright acknowledges that his only motivation is commiting heinous acts for the sake of them. And his only goal is to commit more evil. He lacks any depth, even tiniest detail that would make him interesting. Garrosh was embodiment of:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz

To quote certain parody of old jrpg "I don't need any reason with tittle like dark lord".

I don't really agree with that. I mean, in "War Crimes" he does say as much; touting himself as a villain and generally acting as the complete monster the assembled view him as - but much of that is essentially revealed to be an act, as demonstrated by his conversations with Anduin in "War Crimes" and later on the "Hellscream" short story. His goals are certainly still selfish and, relatively to the defenders of Azeroth, still evil; but they're not really in the same vein as the "For the Evulz" trope. He truest goal is to redeem his line - himself and his father, to undo what had been done in the past and create a new destiny. Unfortunately his understanding of how that must be accomplished is as warped and broken as his original homeworld, and in the commission of rewriting their shared destiny he ultimately sacrifices everything he once believed in and held true - and all for nothing as his efforts end up being for naught.

In many ways Garrosh's story is perhaps the saddest that the Warcraft universe has to tell. For all the lives wasted and all the conflict, Garrosh's net value is essentially a self-cancelling one. His grand plan to thwart fate and rescue a version of his father in another continuity of Draenor is foiled and more than that produces a grand victory for the truest enemy of the Orcs, the Legion, by bringing a new Gul'dan to power and opening the way for the Legion to finally invade their new homeworld.

[Mehrunes]

1. Its super common in all naruto-branch anime. And it makes even biggest weebs cringe.

Wouldn't biggest weebs consider the entire genre as mainstream crap to begin with?

I'm not really sure what you mean, here. You mean you would opt not to read the book because it changes what you already know or feel about a character?

More like it feels because it feels like it doesn't fit the character at all and that this is another character sharing the name. Replace Vol'jin's role in Shadows of the Horde with Mudmug. How would that make you feel? Because I'd say it'd be close to what @Arrashi was getting at.

"Shadows of the Horde" does leave you with a kind of schizophrenic view of him, I guess.

Precisely.

[Polybius]

I don't think they forgot about it, they're just shifting the spotlight on other characters (and saving troll lore for another expansion). We haven't heard from Vol'Jin's friend either.

Kind of lame when you think about it: they can't manage to at least write some dialogue or filler while we wait.

[Arrashi]

Well, that would explain it. I have no idea what Naruto even is, though some cursory Googling shows it is about magic-using ninjas of some kind.

I'm not really sure what you mean, here. You mean you would opt not to read the book because it changes what you already know or feel about a character? Tying his characterization from the book to the game was the essence of my original post - well, the failure to tie his characterization together. "Shadows of the Horde" does leave you with a kind of schizophrenic view of him, I guess.



I don't really agree with that. I mean, in "War Crimes" he does say as much; touting himself as a villain and generally acting as the complete monster the assembled view him as - but much of that is essentially revealed to be an act, as demonstrated by his conversations with Anduin in "War Crimes" and later on the "Hellscream" short story. His goals are certainly still selfish and, relatively to the defenders of Azeroth, still evil; but they're not really in the same vein as the "For the Evulz" trope. He truest goal is to redeem his line - himself and his father, to undo what had been done in the past and create a new destiny. Unfortunately his understanding of how that must be accomplished is as warped and broken as his original homeworld, and in the commission of rewriting their shared destiny he ultimately sacrifices everything he once believed in and held true - and all for nothing as his efforts end up being for naught.

In many ways Garrosh's story is perhaps the saddest that the Warcraft universe has to tell. For all the lives wasted and all the conflict, Garrosh's net value is essentially a self-cancelling one. His grand plan to thwart fate and rescue a version of his father in another continuity of Draenor is foiled and more than that produces a grand victory for the truest enemy of the Orcs, the Legion, by bringing a new Gul'dan to power and opening the way for the Legion to finally invade their new homeworld.

1. Its essencially about as infantile and naive "proving im a good guy" thing to say. Guys who believe in power of friendship must be good ones right ? And thats what his whole "hord be da family" narrative came down to.

2.What i mean is that its difficult to say whather SoH is canon book, glorified fanfiction or spinoff. They way its written and how it reflects (or should i say don't reflect) on in game representation of vol'jin makes it difficult to decide what exactly is going on.

3. But garrosh doesn't do anything of that in MoP + era. He was conflicted in Cata, and in many quests you could see his struggle. The second you instal MoP he makes all out turn into lolevil. None of his decision makes any sense. He doesn't act for the horde, he doesn't act for wellbeing of orcs. He triest to redeem his bloodline so he....goes on search of heavily corruptible eldritch artifacts ?
Not to mention all the weird shit like capturing theramore citizens and storing them as fuel for his crimes. Like this one is hilarious. Him turning entire horde on himself for no other reason other than being able to commit this 1-2 more evil deeds also doesn't make sense. How exactly was forcing those parents to kill each others anything but lolevil ? Using prisoners as target practice ?
MoP and onwards era garrosh is hilarious because he lacks absolutely any redeeming quality. He also lacks any quirks or deepth that make commited villains likeable or at least interesting. If anything garrosh seems like someone worshiping evil as a principle.
His hilarious speeches in WC don't show any real goal other than mocking goodies for lacking spine to kill him. Him lying to his own father just to kill more innocents show that his only goal was evil, evil and more evil.

You know, garrosh really reminds me peolpe who for a first time try to roleplay evil character in any P&P rpg. The results were as hilariously bad. And not "evil" bad.

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Wouldn't biggest weebs consider the entire genre as mainstream crap to begin with?

/looks at himself
Yeaaaah, i guess.

[Tart]

Personally, I think Vol'jin suffered mightily as a character in WoW by having very little development of his own - even with an ascension to Warchief Vol'jin was still mostly unexplored within the game, appearing only briefly in WoD in a handful of scenes with no real story of his own, and having no real connection to the story happening as part of that expansion. Even his biggest in-game story-arc, the Insurrection storyline toward the end of MoP, didn't really seem to feature much of him. A couple of quests provide a basic outline of his plight, and there was of course the scenario that featured him that set it all up (when Vol'jin was nearly assassinated by Garrosh's lieutenant Rak'gor). Of Thrall's inner council Vol'jin is the second-least developed by MoP, with only Lor'themar Theron probably succeeding him until MoP and especially the Thunder King patch itself. In the game itself Vol'jin is largely, and oddly, very out of focus for what would go on to be a major character.

The lion's share of Vol'jin's development actually happens to be found in his novel, "Shadows of the Horde," which actually changed my personal opinion on Vol'jin from a more or less neutral one to a cautiously positive one, but unfortunately that forward momentum in Vol'jin's characterization was completely halted when WoD hit and he was shown as an entirely static and uninvolved figure. This stasis, and for those without the benefit of reading "Shadows of the Horde," robs almost all the impact of Vol'jin's death at the Broken Shore. I can't fault anyone for seeing Vol'jin as a failure of a leader because of the frankly terrible way his character was handled in the most important vehicle for telling the ongoing story (the game itself) even though I don't share in the opinion myself. I believe he would be received very differently in the events of "Shadow of the Horde" were somehow told in-game, through quests or cutscenes or some other method of relating the essence of the story.

What a fantastic moderator you are mate.

[Flurryfang]

That's why I said that it would be a good idea to introduce a character or characters and have them develop as characters. Besides, Vol'jin wasn't given any significant development until Cata.

Could be cool indeed Having 2 or 3 siblings fighting for the throne could be really fun Blizzard just a huge problem with introducing new characters, so maybe that would be too much to ask for.

Vol'jin, like most of the other racial leaders, rode on the fame from Warcraft 3. This made it so that few asked "why do these people lead?" since their status was set in a previous world.

[Aucald]

Could be cool indeed Having 2 or 3 siblings fighting for the throne could be really fun Blizzard just a huge problem with introducing new characters, so maybe that would be too much to ask for.

Vol'jin, like most of the other racial leaders, rode on the fame from Warcraft 3. This made it so that few asked "why do these people lead?" since their status was set in a previous world.

There seems to be something of an automatic prejudice against characters that've been introduced in WoW as opposed to those who have their roots in the various RTS games that came before it. There have been a few who stand out as exceptions (Saurfang and Liadrin spring to mind), but many still languish well behind their veteran counterparts.