Should MoP Challenge Mode gear make a comeback?

[SirCowdog]

There's time gating and then there's available every day for over 2 years...

I'm all for more new transmog options so would be more than happy to see Challenge Sets return, provided they are new of course. Baking it into the existing mythic+ system seems the best way to work it.

How much different would be acceptable? Would a recolor be enough, so those that got the original sets could still feel like they're special, and to identify that they got the "original" set? Or are you talking about entirely different models?

[Flurryfang]

I think that there are better, more inclusive ways of letting people prove themselfs worthy of awesome gear then putting it behind a big challenge. I think that the artifact challenge is the limit of what should be put behind a very specific hard challenge

[A dot Ham]

I think that there are better, more inclusive ways of letting people prove themselfs worthy of awesome gear then putting it behind a big challenge. I think that the artifact challenge is the limit of what should be put behind a very specific hard challenge

Is it that hard though? Its just a gear check. EZ mode and available day 1 for those above 910. Something else to works towards for those that weren't.

[SirCowdog]

I think that there are better, more inclusive ways of letting people prove themselfs worthy of awesome gear then putting it behind a big challenge. I think that the artifact challenge is the limit of what should be put behind a very specific hard challenge

Is it that hard though? Its just a gear check. EZ mode and available day 1 for those above 910. Something else to works towards for those that weren't.

The tech exists to make a reasonable challenge, regardless of normal gear. There's scaling tech, M+ modifiers that switch each week, difficulty that increases with M+ level that a player can choose as a setting, vehicles, etc, etc, etc.

I think it's VERY likely and possible that Blizzard could recreate a similar challenge that the MoP CMs represented. I think they could come VERY close to exactly replicating it, honestly, even in the context of the different abilities available in Legion.

[barackohmama]

Basically your argument boils down to preserving the special snowflake feeling for a small group of players who had their time in the spotlight nearly three full expansions ago instead of creating new opportunities for fun and cool stuff that the entire population of wow could experience now. I absolutely can not agree with that.

The new stuff can be fun and exciting too. Why do you have to bring back old stuff? And what is bad about exclusivity? I don't have the Paladin MoP CM set, but I still think it's cool that those who put effort in are distinguished from the rest. If everyone could easily obtain that set then the world would look more dull and the set itself doesn't really mean anything. I never got MoP sets but I got the WoD weapons, so I'm happy for that and i'm happy for those who got the MoP sets. Everyone can be special snowflakes it just takes some effort. Isn't that great?

[Averrix]

It already made a comeback, just with less spectacle with the Legion class hall sets.

[Flurryfang]

Is it that hard though? Its just a gear check. EZ mode and available day 1 for those above 910. Something else to works towards for those that weren't.

Non of the artifact challenges are clear gear checks. If you don't have the skill to keep up a high amount of awareness and make use of your abilities, you die. Many people who are at 910 or higher still have trouble with it.

Or.... I can only speak from the tank challenge and ret paladin challenge. If the others are not on the same standard, Blizzard should make it like the tank and ret challenge and the difficulty is high enough.

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The tech exists to make a reasonable challenge, regardless of normal gear. There's scaling tech, M+ modifiers that switch each week, difficulty that increases with M+ level that a player can choose as a setting, vehicles, etc, etc, etc.

I think it's VERY likely and possible that Blizzard could recreate a similar challenge that the MoP CMs represented. I think they could come VERY close to exactly replicating it, honestly, even in the context of the different abilities available in Legion.

Scaling tech is good, but it removes any kind of ability to adapt. If you are given a specific amount of stat, there is little room for people to play around with weights and find better ways to kill a boss in their way. It also creates 2 different experiences. You might be totally awesome on your tank in raids with your current gear, but might suck with the scaled tech gear, even though you have the same item lvl. Scaling is good for some areas of high lvl content, but when it comes to challenges where you need to give your best, it can be a very bad thing, especially when it comes to something where the player needs to practice, since they can only practice inside the event and not outside, often creating an experience where players feel like they are forced into a specific playstyle or limited in what they normally would do.


The current version of M+ is also far superior to the MoP version. M+ in MoP changed the rules without making it clear. It also put up a timer in an challenging instance, which sadly counteracts each other in the current MMO playerspace. Raiding have succes because it allows for players to take their time defeating a hard boss, where the encounter itself is the challenge and not any other factor around it. In MoP challenge mode, they went double. Not only was the boss hard, but the there was also a limit on your space when it comes to thinking, planning and progression. Not only were you to kill hard bosses, but you were also to be fast, which makes it so that bosses could not be too hard, since wiping wasted time, but the bosses could not be too easy or people would run too fast.

I would love to see more personal challenges in the game with the current M+ system implemented, aslong as the timer is removed. I should never fear the timer. I should maybe feel the pressure to push out a specific amount of dmg in an interval, but overall, for a 6 min solo fight, time should never be the thing that kills you, but your lack of focus on mechanic and your ability to deal with them.

[ro9ue]

Nah, I got 8 of 11 classes sets in MoP. They need to let prestige items stay prestige items. Even though I never got the druid set and I want it so bad.

The only way I'd be okay with it is if they reintroduce them as scaled content where it retains the same amount of challenge it was from when it was current content.

[SirCowdog]

The new stuff can be fun and exciting too. Why do you have to bring back old stuff? And what is bad about exclusivity? I don't have the Paladin MoP CM set, but I still think it's cool that those who put effort in are distinguished from the rest. If everyone could easily obtain that set then the world would look more dull and the set itself doesn't really mean anything. I never got MoP sets but I got the WoD weapons, so I'm happy for that and i'm happy for those who got the MoP sets. Everyone can be special snowflakes it just takes some effort. Isn't that great?

Where do you guys keep getting this idea that obtaining the set would be EASY?! Who's asking for that?

Exclusivity is ok within the correct context. If you said: "I think only people who meet the challenge should get access to the gear" I would be in complete agreement with you. But when people effectively say: "These items should only be for me, and no one else." then we have a problem. Do you see the difference?

The MoP sets should be exclusive to people who are able to overcome a piece of challenging content. In MoP it was CM dungeons. In Legion it could be very high M+ levels. Both sets of players will have obtained their gear by playing at a high level. NOT simply because they happened to have been playing way during a specific window of time.

People change classes. Some people may have been dealing with real life, such as military service, or having a baby, or any number of other completely legitimate reasons for not being able to play wow during that time frame. Telling them "too bad so sad" is a shit excuse. While making them available again under similar circumstances promotes more gameplay and enjoyment. There is no downside to it other than MAYBE some special snowflakes being sore that someone got the same stuff as them. That kind of childish exclusivity needs to DIAF. People should be HAPPY that other players are able to play in a similar way than them, and struggle to accomplish the same things as them. They SHOULDN'T be hoarding thier "cool stuff, yo" and telling everyone else to piss right the fuck off.

Which of those types of players and exclusivity do you want in the game?

[Jaylock]

Basically your argument boils down to preserving the special snowflake feeling for a small group of players who had their time in the spotlight nearly three full expansions ago instead of creating new opportunities for fun and cool stuff that the entire population of wow could experience now. I absolutely can not agree with that.

They do create new opportunities for players to accomplish stuff in the current expansion. Go out and do them.

Pandering to lazy players, or players who didn't do them while it was current content (probably because of lazy or bad or whatever excuse), or missed the opportunity because they didn't play during that expansion is not Blizzard's fault, its your own.

Blizzard shouldn't have to say to those players (especially the lazy and entitled assholes): "oh you didn't get it while we offered it? awww ok we will let you get it now" just because a minority of players want it back because they didn't get it for whatever <insert reason here> while it was in the game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Is it that hard though? Its just a gear check. EZ mode and available day 1 for those above 910. Something else to works towards for those that weren't.

Plenty of people with 910+ ilvl struggle though. It's a "gear check" in the same sense that a Mythic raid is a "gear check" whilst current. As we all know, even the best players wipe to mechanics if they ignore them.

The Artifact challenge won't be around for long enough to become a new Black Harvest (green warlock fire)-sort of deal.

[SirCowdog]

Non of the artifact challenges are clear gear checks. If you don't have the skill to keep up a high amount of awareness and make use of your abilities, you die. Many people who are at 910 or higher still have trouble with it.

Or.... I can only speak from the tank challenge and ret paladin challenge. If the others are not on the same standard, Blizzard should make it like the tank and ret challenge and the difficulty is high enough.

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Scaling tech is good, but it removes any kind of ability to adapt. If you are given a specific amount of stat, there is little room for people to play around with weights and find better ways to kill a boss in their way. It also creates 2 different experiences. You might be totally awesome on your tank in raids with your current gear, but might suck with the scaled tech gear, even though you have the same item lvl. Scaling is good for some areas of high lvl content, but when it comes to challenges where you need to give your best, it can be a very bad thing, especially when it comes to something where the player needs to practice, since they can only practice inside the event and not outside, often creating an experience where players feel like they are forced into a specific playstyle or limited in what they normally would do.


The current version of M+ is also far superior to the MoP version. M+ in MoP changed the rules without making it clear. It also put up a timer in an challenging instance, which sadly counteracts each other in the current MMO playerspace. Raiding have succes because it allows for players to take their time defeating a hard boss, where the encounter itself is the challenge and not any other factor around it. In MoP challenge mode, they went double. Not only was the boss hard, but the there was also a limit on your space when it comes to thinking, planning and progression. Not only were you to kill hard bosses, but you were also to be fast, which makes it so that bosses could not be too hard, since wiping wasted time, but the bosses could not be too easy or people would run too fast.

I would love to see more personal challenges in the game with the current M+ system implemented, aslong as the timer is removed. I should never fear the timer. I should maybe feel the pressure to push out a specific amount of dmg in an interval, but overall, for a 6 min solo fight, time should never be the thing that kills you, but your lack of focus on mechanic and your ability to deal with them.

To an extent, I agree. Within the more broad context of general gameplay, players should definitely have the option to customize thier playstyle and gameplay. But when we're talking about the specific, narrow context of something like a challenge mode, then I think it's perfectly acceptable to limit options in order to create a specific type of challenge.

This is the entire point I'm trying to get across: If the challenge remains static, then there's no reason to limit the window of time that players can attempt to overcome it. In the case of MoP CMs vs Legion M+: It's probably impossible to EXACTLY recreate the same type of challenge that the CMs presented without somehow giving players the exact stats and class abilities that existed in MoP. But it is VERY possible to create a similarlevel of challenge that's close enough to the original that overcoming it would be just as hard(or harder!), and satisfy the arguments that players shouldn't get to have the sets without also doing the work.

[Jaylock]

The new stuff can be fun and exciting too. Why do you have to bring back old stuff? And what is bad about exclusivity? I don't have the Paladin MoP CM set, but I still think it's cool that those who put effort in are distinguished from the rest. If everyone could easily obtain that set then the world would look more dull and the set itself doesn't really mean anything. I never got MoP sets but I got the WoD weapons, so I'm happy for that and i'm happy for those who got the MoP sets. Everyone can be special snowflakes it just takes some effort. Isn't that great?

I'm in the same boat as you. I never really put in the effort or time to do the CM sets during MoP because quite frankly i was lazy back then. I could have done them, but I just didn't. Would I like to have them, sure, but since I didn't put in the effort during the time they were available, im SOL. Its cool to see players ride by on those sets though. It signifies they did something somewhat difficult to obtain them, and i applaud them for it.

Sircowdog is just an entitled guy who thinks blizzard should tailor the game to his exact specifications or else he gets mad and makes a bunch of forum posts to try to convince the world why the game should be like he thinks it should be like (see his flying shenanigans for examples).

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Where do you guys keep getting this idea that obtaining the set would be EASY?! Who's asking for that?

Exclusivity is ok within the correct context. If you said: "I think only people who meet the challenge should get access to the gear" I would be in complete agreement with you. But when people effectively say: "These items should only be for me, and no one else." then we have a problem. Do you see the difference?

The MoP sets should be exclusive to people who are able to overcome a piece of challenging content. In MoP it was CM dungeons. In Legion it could be very high M+ levels. Both sets of players will have obtained their gear by playing at a high level. NOT simply because they happened to have been playing way during a specific window of time.

People change classes. Some people may have been dealing with real life, such as military service, or having a baby, or any number of other completely legitimate reasons for not being able to play wow during that time frame. Telling them "too bad so sad" is a shit excuse. While making them available again under similar circumstances promotes more gameplay and enjoyment. There is no downside to it other than MAYBE some special snowflakes being sore that someone got the same stuff as them. That kind of childish exclusivity needs to DIAF. People should be HAPPY that other players are able to play in a similar way than them, and struggle to accomplish the same things as them. They SHOULDN'T be hoarding thier "cool stuff, yo" and telling everyone else to piss right the fuck off.

Which of those types of players and exclusivity do you want in the game?

But no one is saying what you quoted above (which I bolded for your convenience). They were made available to EVERYONE with no bias or no strings attached, you just had to do the content during the expansion that it was offered in. How are you not getting that?

Also maybe you haven't figured out what makes MMOs cool. Part of what makes the game enticing to players is the fact that there is some exclusivity to the activities and rewards in the game. Now I didn't say the whole game has to be exclusive, i said SOME.

Its a pretty awesome thing to see people riding around on the Black Bug mount, or to see someone with a transmoged corrupted ashbringer, or to see that they got the magic seeker title from realm first malyagos. Now imagine you got one of those things. You got the title from realm first malyagos, or you had corrupted ashbringer, don't you think it would be a little lame to see everyone and their dog running around with something that signified their accomplishments back when it was relevant?

Again, stop whining and deal with it, some exclusivity is here to stay whether you like it or not.

[SirCowdog]

They do create new opportunities for players to accomplish stuff in the current expansion. Go out and do them.

Pandering to lazy players, or players who didn't do them while it was current content (probably because of lazy or bad or whatever excuse), or missed the opportunity because they didn't play during that expansion is not Blizzard's fault, its your own.

Blizzard shouldn't have to say to those players (especially the lazy and entitled assholes): "oh you didn't get it while we offered it? awww ok we will let you get it now" just because a minority of players want it back because they didn't get it for whatever <insert reason here> while it was in the game.

TRANSLATION: Anyone who didn't get the CM sets is a lazy, entitled player.

Do I really need to expand on why that logic is deeply flawed?

[A dot Ham]

Plenty of people with 910+ ilvl struggle though. It's a "gear check" in the same sense that a Mythic raid is a "gear check" whilst current. As we all know, even the best players wipe to mechanics if they ignore them.

The Artifact challenge won't be around for long enough to become a new Black Harvest (green warlock fire)-sort of deal.

Not sure what you mean by that, there is/has been no indication of them removing the challenge quests. The only thing they have mentioned is that artifact skins will not be made available/retroactively attainable post legion. That gives us a while, and as power levels are now reaching ridiculous heights making early legion content soloable/trivial... I suspect that it will be quite trivial by the end of the xpac.

But we can end this now if its going to turn into a dick measuring contest... I'd probably lose.

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They do create new opportunities for players to accomplish stuff in the current expansion. Go out and do them.

Pandering to lazy players, or players who didn't do them while it was current content (probably because of lazy or bad or whatever excuse), or missed the opportunity because they didn't play during that expansion is not Blizzard's fault, its your own.

Blizzard shouldn't have to say to those players (especially the lazy and entitled assholes): "oh you didn't get it while we offered it? awww ok we will let you get it now" just because a minority of players want it back because they didn't get it for whatever <insert reason here> while it was in the game.

I'll have you know that finding a group that legitimately wanted to work toward completing the CM dungeons was particularly difficult (not the dungeons themselves) but a group of people with the same mindset to get something done and accomplished on their own merits. Toward the end of the xpac the groups were almost exclusively paid carries. Making the majority that attained them the lazy, bad, entitled players you are so fond of chastising.

[Jaylock]

Not sure what you mean by that, there is/has been no indication of them removing the challenge quests. The only thing they have mentioned is that artifact skins will not be made available/retroactively attainable post legion. That gives us a while, and as power levels are now reaching ridiculous heights making early legion content soloable/trivial... I suspect that it will be quite trivial by the end of the xpac.

But we can end this now if its going to turn into a dick measuring contest... I'd probably lose.

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I'll have you know that finding a group that legitimately wanted to work toward completing the CM dungeons was particularly difficult (not the dungeons themselves) but a group of people with the same mindset to get something done and accomplished on their own merits. Toward the end of the xpac the groups were almost exclusively paid carries. Making the majority that attained them the lazy, bad, entitled players you are so fond of chastising.

Hmm.. so finding 5 people who wanted to wade through the learning curves to overcome it was hard?

I mean that statement alone highlights the lazy and entitled nature of the playerbase. Finding a group was hard because everyone was fucking lazy and didn't want to put in the effort / time to get the reward. And of course near the end of the expansion those desperate lazy assholes started paying heaps of gold to get carried through to get the sets. I can guarantee that some of those desperate lazy assholes who didn't pay for carries are now whining on forums about how they hate exclusivity and want blizzard to change the rules.

Tough luck. Blizzard clearly stated during the expansion that they would be going away and players had 2 years to do something about it.

Good on those who did it legitimately and went through the learning curve.

I guess good on those who paid for them to get them while they had the chance knowing that it was going away. At least they understood the fact that they were going away and they had better do something to get the sets they wanted.

For everyone else who missed the opportunity (including myself), sorry you are SOL. (at least I got the WoD weapons, which are pretty damn cool).

[Flurryfang]

To an extent, I agree. Within the more broad context of general gameplay, players should definitely have the option to customize thier playstyle and gameplay. But when we're talking about the specific, narrow context of something like a challenge mode, then I think it's perfectly acceptable to limit options in order to create a specific type of challenge.

This is the entire point I'm trying to get across: If the challenge remains static, then there's no reason to limit the window of time that players can attempt to overcome it. In the case of MoP CMs vs Legion M+: It's probably impossible to EXACTLY recreate the same type of challenge that the CMs presented without somehow giving players the exact stats and class abilities that existed in MoP. But it is VERY possible to create a similarlevel of challenge that's close enough to the original that overcoming it would be just as hard(or harder!), and satisfy the arguments that players shouldn't get to have the sets without also doing the work.

Limiting options is alright, if you create a challenge for a specific tool kit. This means, that we need a challenge for every specific spec in the game, because then i would agree, that you can outfit people with a specific amount of stats to complete a mission..... But it will proberly still create problems. Players often find solutions to specs in other ways then Blizzard does. This means, that while Blizzard will make a guardian druid filled with mastery for their challenge, most players might have put all their stats in haste. This will create a different experience, which makes all the hard work, that good players have put into learning a spec focused around haste wasted, and while these players will proberly get quickly up to speed, they will proberly feel cheated just because they played the "best" spec in RGT.

In the end, i just don't really see why we should go back to MoP CMs, since they are pretty much just hard mythics if you remove the timer. What makes this MoP experience unique and worth bringing back compared to todays mythic with extra stats and abilities?

[Deleted]

Basically your argument boils down to preserving the special snowflake feeling for a small group of players who had their time in the spotlight nearly three full expansions ago instead of creating new opportunities for fun and cool stuff that the entire population of wow could experience now. I absolutely can not agree with that.

It's not about others.

It's about a epic quest. There can only be a epic quest if you get an item not many people have
It's no longer a epic quest if EVERYONE has said thing.
Thats the defenition of prestige. That's what creates memorable moments.

And btw, yes, you are "entitled"
"Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment."

Your ENTITLEMENT is so BIG you want to erase a epic quest for prestige. A fun game within a game just to fulfill your needs.
You sir are the entitled one here. Not the other way around. LoL, most people worked for those armors. You want those armors for free. You are the entitled one

Call it snowklake all you like, thats just a word so you can be pretty and get special items without any efford and destroying epic quests for other people.
Its this epic quests for unique rare rewards that make a great game.

Stop trying to destroy epic quests for prestige

[A dot Ham]

Hmm.. so finding 5 people who wanted to wade through the learning curves to overcome it was hard?

I mean that statement alone highlights the lazy and entitled nature of the playerbase. Finding a group was hard because everyone was fucking lazy and didn't want to put in the effort / time to get the reward. And of course near the end of the expansion those desperate lazy assholes started paying heaps of gold to get carried through to get the sets. I can guarantee that some of those desperate lazy assholes who didn't pay for carries are now whining on forums about how they hate exclusivity and want blizzard to change the rules.

Tough luck. Blizzard clearly stated during the expansion that they would be going away and players had 2 years to do something about it.

Good on those who did it legitimately and went through the learning curve.

I guess good on those who paid for them to get them while they had the chance knowing that it was going away. At least they understood the fact that they were going away and they had better do something to get the sets they wanted.

For everyone else who missed the opportunity (including myself), sorry you are SOL. (at least I got the WoD weapons, which are pretty damn cool).

I respect the exclusivity.

But calling anyone who didn't do it on their own merits lazy, bad, or entitled... just isn't right or fair. I didn't get em either... but that's because I'm a cheap ass and I wasn't about to pay some elitist prick to hold my hand through it. I didn't get em done in time I accept that.

[IMG]http://68.media.tumblr.com/4223162094c54b046e9b0e6e013cd3fb/tumblr_nrpvnbRzWb1rszis0o1_1280.jpg[/MG]

[Deleted]

Ah so prestige and exclusivity is only good for the game when it benefits YOU...

I dont want the same armors back.
I want new ones. Different armors, not the same ones released in MoP.
The concept of Challenge Mode Gears with epic new animations seized to exist, i dont know why.