Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[HeiAggra]

Has nothing to do with me being a "tanking God" just trying to understand why the logic you're trying to use makes no sense and help you realize that it makes no sense.

You don't need to tell me what Demon Spikes does. If someone needs to know that they should be on page 1 of this thread.

No one is saying you should be forced into a cookie cutter build but you're not even giving logical reasons for what you're taking.

Ok, simple 4 piece tier 19, got it?

[Tech614]

Ok, simple 4 piece tier 19, got it?

Yea got it loud and clear. Just throw out random abilities, talents and set bonuses until something makes sense. It still doesn't. Since you don't appear receptive to advice I guess have fun.

[HeiAggra]

Yea got it loud and clear. Just throw out random abilities, talents and set bonuses until something makes sense. It still doesn't. Since you don't appear receptive to advice I guess have fun.

I always take advices when they have some degree of logic.
By your prespective i did not give any reason why i use that. Did you know you also didnt when told me not to use it?
I use this build with the class ring that allows me to have 2 talents on that row Fallout and depending on the fight BA or FS.
FB helps with pain for a quicker regen on DS. Helps when by some mistake i need pain to use a CD after is spend my pain for DPS or to survive due to a mess up somewhere.
FB also heals. With tier 19 i can keep a 6 sec dot up and get DS up faster due to pain spent on SC.

[Tech614]

I use this build with the class ring that allows me to have 2 talents on that row Fallout and depending on the fight BA or FS.

Burning Alive adds no synergy to the build you're proposing and feast of souls is always bad.

FB helps with pain for a quicker regen on DS. Helps when by some mistake i need pain to use a CD after is spend my pain for DPS or to survive due to a mess up somewhere.

If you're in danger of dying, then you have plenty of pain to put up DS.

FB also heals. With tier 19 i can keep a 6 sec dot up and get DS up faster due to pain spent on SC.

Fel Blade heals for a pathetic amount yes, less then the other choices in that row. Not sure what "6 second DoT" you're keeping up. SoF? Yea, you ain't keeping it up for shit without Flame Crash which you don't have when you talent Felblade. That is however getting even further away from the logic... SoF literally has nothing to do with Felblade other then well, you have far less SoF up time without flame crash.

Tier 19 was always bad for raiding tbh, it has it's uses in mythic+ before 7.2.5 but that's about it. Now it's even bad in mythic+. Not sure why you're still using it.

[HeiAggra]

Burning Alive adds no synergy to the build you're proposing and feast of souls is always bad.



If you're in danger of dying, then you have plenty of pain to put up DS.




Fel Blade heals for a pathetic amount yes, less then the other choices in that row. Not sure what "6 second DoT" you're keeping up. SoF? Yea, you ain't keeping it up for shit without Flame Crash which you don't have when you talent Felblade. That is however getting even further away from the logic... SoF literally has nothing to do with Felblade other then well, you have far less SoF up time without flame crash.

Tier 19 was always bad for raiding tbh, it has it's uses in mythic+ before 7.2.5 but that's about it. Now it's even bad in mythic+. Not sure why you're still using it.

Well if you sont see the login nothing i can do.
Still thank you for your humble and honest opinion!

[ssviolett]

Another nerf for the VDH ....

I am totally UPSET to see at which point they continue to nerf us to the ground even in the middle of a patch as all other classes, when a bit OP, are not touched before the next patch.

Can't we shine at least a little bit during a patch ..

DH getting nerfed, owls being buffed, nothing changes in WoW, lol

According to Blizzard logic it is fine though:

[Deleted]

I did not found any information - maybe i just slip over - regarding of spirit bomb. Why ppls using it? What's the benefit? How it is good in raid situation?

[DeuZWw]

Well if you sont see the login nothing i can do.
Still thank you for your humble and honest opinion!

I'm usually against Tech in some discussions there. but i have to say, he's absolutely right here.

Feast of Souls is an Illusion and its healing its the worst talent between all talents of VDH overall. the healing is just too low to matter.

FelBlade is only good if you are taking too little damage, most of the fights you will be having more than enough pain by receiving hits from the boss.

T19 4Pcs is like 4% versatility. on the big picture of a raid boss fight, this is overall useless. Soul Cleave is not optimal, you should always be using SpB and only using soulCleave as a "Panic button" when you get these spikes and is like 30% HP low. i have tanked all N/HC and i hardly pressed Soul Cleave, saving for Felclaws on KJ.
And even if you do use Soul Cleave, the versatility gain is so useless that you will always trade the 4pcs for something with a better ilvl, because the agility and stamina gain is usually more worth than 4% versatility.


i mean, VDH works with almost everybuild if you know how to play it. but you will never be as good as someone who is using the best setup.
The RazorSpikes+FTD+Blade Turning+Demonic Infusion build for example, is a great build for tanking. you will be able to do every current fight with it.
You would even have a better survivability than the SpB+Fracture build. However your DPS would be way lower.

So, if you can tank the fight while doing 700k+ DPS, or tank the fight a little better while doing 400k DPS. the first choice is better for your Raid, it reduces the fighting time which can help healers mana and cooldowns, it helps alot if you get a dps down.
Theres alot of shit happening on encounters, it's hardly a simple math for tanks here.

[HeiAggra]

I'm usually against Tech in some discussions there. but i have to say, he's absolutely right here.

Feast of Souls is an Illusion and its healing its the worst talent between all talents of VDH overall. the healing is just too low to matter.

FelBlade is only good if you are taking too little damage, most of the fights you will be having more than enough pain by receiving hits from the boss.

T19 4Pcs is like 4% versatility. on the big picture of a raid boss fight, this is overall useless. Soul Cleave is not optimal, you should always be using SpB and only using soulCleave as a "Panic button" when you get these spikes and is like 30% HP low. i have tanked all N/HC and i hardly pressed Soul Cleave, saving for Felclaws on KJ.
And even if you do use Soul Cleave, the versatility gain is so useless that you will always trade the 4pcs for something with a better ilvl, because the agility and stamina gain is usually more worth than 4% versatility.


i mean, VDH works with almost everybuild if you know how to play it. but you will never be as good as someone who is using the best setup.
The RazorSpikes+FTD+Blade Turning+Demonic Infusion build for example, is a great build for tanking. you will be able to do every current fight with it.
You would even have a better survivability than the SpB+Fracture build. However your DPS would be way lower.

So, if you can tank the fight while doing 700k+ DPS, or tank the fight a little better while doing 400k DPS. the first choice is better for your Raid, it reduces the fighting time which can help healers mana and cooldowns, it helps alot if you get a dps down.
Theres alot of shit happening on encounters, it's hardly a simple math for tanks here.

I know what you mean thank for the info but just one thing. Tier 19, 2 - SC refounds 5 pain, 4 - DS recharge quicker depending on pain spend on SC. Thats why i used FB more Pain quicker refound on DS. Yesterday i got my 4th piece of tier 20 so i will have to change my build.
I do understand what you guys were pointing but with the tier 19 and legs i have for tank (Prydaz and SotS) depending on the fight i would use the burning alive talent or FoS since the fallout talent is a given.
Also i like too much Soul Barrier! So it's a must for me!

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Sometimes it seems Blizz doesn't know what they want to do with us. Like most of you, this stuff has been on my mind a LOT since the most recent patch. My idea is to codify the new rotation by making Fracture baseline. With Pain Bringer and auto-consume, the value of spawning additional soul shards makes Fracture as essential as any ability we have. It's a cornerstone of our class now!

This would allow us to use Fracture and Feed the Demon at the same time, gaining more control over Demon Spikes uptime. This might require a tuning pass; with baseline fracture maybe FtD could require 2 souls per second. Whatever; this could all be tested on the PTR. The point is that we would have a way to generate more uptime on our active mitigation, which would do more to answer concerns with our survivability than the measly 2% buff to Spikes in the recent patch.

With Fracture baseline, Soul Cleave would become the talent. Let's recognize and embrace that we have THREE iconic ways to consume all nearby souls for some dramatic effect: Soul Cleave, Soul Barrier, and Spirit Bomb (rename it "Soul Bomb" for consistency). Put all three on the same tier and let us choose which to talent. Buff Soul Cleave to be equal in stature with the other two by making it a significant burst heal similar to what Fel Devastation does now. Fel Devastation would be altered and bumped to the tier with DI & LR; perhaps it could do damage and apply a small debuff or disorient effect. Blade Turning would be dropped to 104 where it would finally be competitive.

Baseline
Fracture

99

• Abyssal Strike
• Agonizing Flames (boost damage to make competitive)
• Razor Spikes

100

• Feast of Souls (triggered by soul consumption rather than Soul Cleave)
• Fallout
• Burning Alive

102

• Fel Blade
• Flame Crash
• Fel Eruption

104

• Feed the Demon (1 sec/2 souls, or whatever seems good balance with baseline Fracture)
• Blade Turning
• Soul Rending

106

• Sigils

108 (all 3 absorb all souls within 25 yards, with different effects)

• Soul Cleave (BIG burst heal similar to current Fel Devastate)
• Soul Barrier
• Soul Bomb (Spirit Bomb)

110

• Last Resort
• Demonic Infusion
• Fel Devastation (no healing, but applies either weakness -5% damage OR disorient, not sure which would be more appropriate)

Ok here's the part where you pick it all apart and share better ideas.

[HeiAggra]

Sometimes it seems Blizz doesn't know what they want to do with us. Like most of you, this stuff has been on my mind a LOT since the most recent patch. My idea is to codify the new rotation by making Fracture baseline. With Pain Bringer and auto-consume, the value of spawning additional soul shards makes Fracture as essential as any ability we have. It's a cornerstone of our class now!

This would allow us to use Fracture and Feed the Demon at the same time, gaining more control over Demon Spikes uptime. This might require a tuning pass; with baseline fracture maybe FtD could require 2 souls per second. Whatever; this could all be tested on the PTR. The point is that we would have a way to generate more uptime on our active mitigation, which would do more to answer concerns with our survivability than the measly 2% buff to Spikes in the recent patch.

With Fracture baseline, Soul Cleave would become the talent. Let's recognize and embrace that we have THREE iconic ways to consume all nearby souls for some dramatic effect: Soul Cleave, Soul Barrier, and Spirit Bomb (rename it "Soul Bomb" for consistency). Put all three on the same tier and let us choose which to talent. Buff Soul Cleave to be equal in stature with the other two by making it a significant burst heal similar to what Fel Devastation does now. Fel Devastation would be altered and bumped to the tier with DI & LR; perhaps it could do damage and apply a small debuff or disorient effect. Blade Turning would be dropped to 104 where it would finally be competitive.

Baseline
Fracture

99

• Abyssal Strike
• Agonizing Flames (boost damage to make more competitive)
• Razor Spikes

100

• Feast of Souls (boost healing to make more competitive)
• Fallout
• Burning Alive

102

• Fel Blade
• Flame Crash
• Fel Eruption

104

• Feed the Demon (1 sec/2 souls, or whatever seems good balance with baseline Fracture)
• Blade Turning
• Soul Rending

106

• Sigils

108 (all 3 absorb all souls within 25 yards, with different effects)

• Soul Cleave (BIG burst heal similar to current Fel Devastate)
• Soul Barrier
• Soul Bomb (Spirit Bomb)

110

• Last Resort
• Demonic Infusion
• Fel Devastation (no healing, but applies either weakness -5% damage OR disorient, not sure which would be more appropriate)

Ok here's the part where you pick it all apart and share better ideas.

Very good ideas i only see one prob Felfaadaern while lvling how would you heal yourself?
Also FoS without SC is useless. I hope you see what i try to point out

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Doh! - good points!
Hmmm... So we would need some way for VDHs to heal 99-108 (besides auto-consume) and a re-working for Feast of Souls. Or maybe there's a better way to do the whole thing.

Would baseline Fracture generate enough soul shards for auto-consume to provide sufficient healing? Just a thought.

[HeiAggra]

Doh! - good points!
Hmmm... So we would need some way for VDHs to heal 99-108 (besides auto-consume) and a re-working for Feast of Souls. Or maybe there's a better way to do the whole thing.

Would baseline Fracture generate enough soul shards for auto-consume to provide sufficient healing? Just a thought.

I dont SC is a problem as it is. True we have 3 different ways to consume souls but it will depend on your situation and build to use more one of those. Or none. Quick Example, i Use SB and SC without souls and use them for Spirit Bomb. Let me try to explain. I use the SBarrier to get a barrier up fracture and IA to get souls and SSbomb, this will improve my SBarrier and use the souls on SBomb to apply fraility. I dont know if i explained myself in a good manner.
I bealive we need a rework on some abilities. If DS are supposed to be up for a long time they need to increase it's duration and decrease the recharge time.

[DeuZWw]

I know what you mean thank for the info but just one thing. Tier 19, 2 - SC refounds 5 pain, 4 - DS recharge quicker depending on pain spend on SC. Thats why i used FB more Pain quicker refound on DS. Yesterday i got my 4th piece of tier 20 so i will have to change my build.
I do understand what you guys were pointing but with the tier 19 and legs i have for tank (Prydaz and SotS) depending on the fight i would use the burning alive talent or FoS since the fallout talent is a given.
Also i like too much Soul Barrier! So it's a must for me!

i totally confused T19 with T20 there. lol

i see what you mean, if you run with the FtD build the T19 can be good if you are not running with DI. however with Legs+FTD+Legendary legs you can have 100% uptime on FtD, making the T19 4pcs useless.
The 5pain refund is not bad, considering its basically 1 less Shear cast for every 2 SC cast.

SB is great, but with Legendary legs i would go for Demonic Infusion, the extra pain is great, and when you activate it, you will active 6s of DS and will have 3 charges. if you casted 3 earlier charges before doing this and manage to not go over the maximum cooldown, you can have a great uptime even without FtD. which is the best option on ToS because everyfight have a heavy income of Physical damage.


But yeah, whatever works. VDH may be the bottom Tanks right now but its nice that you can play with pretty much any talent on rows and still be a good tank if you know how to play it. the basic SpB Build is more for people who want to parse high on wlogs, but you can pretty much get to 90th logs with any talent build

[Tech614]

VDH may be the bottom Tanks right now

Definitely not below prot paladin. Honestly feel like they're competitive with Guardian and Warriors as well, just druids especially are literally brain dead and forgiving with mistakes in progression as well as has one of the best tank utilities in the game. Certainly below Brewmaster and Blood as pure tanks but I think every other tank spec is as well. Spec feels pretty middle of the pack to me, and definitely works better then it has earlier in the xpansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone else noticed the spirit bomb nerf being reverted? During raid it was 114k per frag and now it's back to 126k for me...

[MookieRah]

Incoming nerf to spirit bomb and fracture, the compensation? 2% extra damage reduction on demon spikes... Meanwhile they are buffing brewmaster damage. BALANCED!

Seriously though. Vengeance isn't even that good overall, and even though it is a slight nerf, wtf? Damage was our thing, the one place we could shine over the other tanks. At least give us more mitigation than 2% if you are going to start curtailing our dps. Hell, I would be happy to give away some damage in order to be a better raid tank.

[A-sayo]

Nerf are already live. It is a tooltip correction. From July 24th.

[mmouser]

47 stacks on raid boss (single target obviously). This in PTR 7.3 730 ilvl. 2 Piece from ToS and 4 piece T21. With Shifting Cosmic Sliver.

http://imgur.com/a/eUva8

The most important part is 37.8% uptime on meta. On a 9m 40s fight, thats awesome.

[Tech614]

Meanwhile they are buffing brewmaster damage. BALANCED!

Yea, that's not happening and why you shouldn't always go off datamined information. The DH changes are already live and just tooltip updates and the "brewmaster buff" you see is Tiger Palm which likely won't be effected Brewmaster Tiger Palm at all seeing as it's in the mix with the very clear and needed WINDWALKER damage buffs. I guess you think brewmaster has rushing jade wind to because the datamine said it's buffing it for brewmaster? LOL.

[MookieRah]

Not complaining about windwalker buffs at all, it is very much needed as the class has some of the poorest single target dps. And yeah, my post was quite reactionary. I saw vengeance get a nerf with laughable compensation and one of the strongest tank specs getting a buff. I didn't look into how or if those buffs actually mattered though, and that is kinda important.

Even though I'm late to the party, I still don't understand how Bliizard can justify nerfs to one of the weaker tank specs without adequate compensation that actually addresses aspects that make them a weaker spec. If they don't know how to solve that yet then they should hold off on tuning our dps.