Vol'jin's offspring (?)

[Flurryfang]

There seems to be something of an automatic prejudice against characters that've been introduced in WoW as opposed to those who have their roots in the various RTS games that came before it. There have been a few who stand out as exceptions (Saurfang and Liadrin spring to mind), but many still languish well behind their veteran counterparts.

I think it is important to say, that i don't think Warcraft characters get automatic better by having been in Warcraft 3. It is more about the focus given to the character, that they often are given a voice and a personality. Even Vol'jin as a character, while he got little screen time, got his own voice and lines which showed characters.

And the lack of voice and lines is pretty much what makes many new Warcraft charcters lacking. Blizzard have a problem with not being able to focus on individual characters in the extent that is needed. Sure, some characters get their 15 min of fame, but it rarely shows much less then their attitude to a specific problem and not much of their character. This has lead to Blizzard creating alot of characters who seem pretty shallow to the player, which makes it difficult for the player to make an emotional connection to these new characters.

Blizzard could really help to fix this by making more character focused questlines. Like if we got a new troll leader, Blizzard would have to atleast dedicated 1 or 2 story-lines where he or she is either the main character or a strong supportiv character. NPC-interaction could also help alot, especially when it comes to clarifying strenght. Prince Farondis quest line is a good example of how to show power and also character by having the player fight beside the NPC.

[Ramz]

Ahahaha, he did what now? In W3 he wasn't even leading the Darkspears at Hyjal because he was busy doing fuck all. When Daelin invaded his village made of sticks and shit, he transformed Rexxar, Rokhan and Chen into spirit wyverns and then was forced to retreat because that did nothing. After that he stopped leading and only offered counsel to those who continued the fight elsewhere.

Darkspears weren't meant to be major factor in the story to begin with. Vol'Jin was afterthought character, and from his short story we know that he was just a teen when he became a chieftain. It was quite a burden to deal with loss of father, becoming shadow hunter and taking leadership over tribe all at the same time.

Compare that to Garrosh who was mopping in Nagrand in his thirties who refused to do anything, and you had to do all stuff yourself because he was that useless.
We also know that Vol'Jin was very active in founding Durotar from expanded lore. So his only fault was that he wasn't shown doing stuff.

The next time he was "commanding" anything was in the Battle for the Undercity, where all he did was sit in a demolisher and shoot at Lordaeron's walls, even though no member of Varimathras' uprising manned them since they all holed up below, despite the path being open from the start and despite the fact the Horde was there to recapture it, not demolish it.

Again, it was just limitation of game mechanics. It's like saying that Garrosh did shit in Icecrown, as he was just sitting at doorstep and didn't move a feet. The whole scenario was about player assisting small group to infiltrate quickly to deal with Varimathras, if scenario would be about taking care of whole siege then it would look different.

Then it was retaking of the Echo Isles. The same Echo Isles that Master Gardin, personally picked by Vol'jin, failed to retake for years. And your military mastermind Vol'jin needed the might of the Horde against one shitty Witch Doctor. And still would have failed if it wasn't for a literal divine intervention.

Vol'Jin didn't need might of the Horde - I happen to still have letter from Vanira. It was a troll initiative where veterans are welcome to participate. But this whole event was done by trolls. If you're so nitpicky then even if every non troll player attended then he still needed to gather 5 trolls to assist him. So in the end the whole assault was by major part done by trolls.

Darkspears were afterthought in vanilla WoW, they were added last minute just for the sake of having another playable race. When you consider that Zalazane took half of the tribe then you realise how dangerous oponent he was. And considering that Darkspears had to participate in other Horde campaigns it just shows that their priority was in helping Horde than themselves, and it's just after defeating Lich King they had possibility to rearrange their troops. (altho I believe it could've been done at the end of TBC instead of that Sunwell BS patch).

Another thing is that even in vanilla Zalazane was described as very powerful sorcerer. Mage class quest sais that he was changing the magic flow of entire Durotar and was corrupting it's entire wildlife.

And lastly Zalazane was Vol'Jin's childhood friend. The treason was unexpected.

Which cannot be said about Sylvanas and Varimathras.

Tauren also almost ended the same way Darkspears did, and the only thing that saved Thunder Bluff was help from Jaina, as Garrosh "the ingenius tactician" refused to send aid to tauren who had civil war waged by grimtotem.

During 4.1 he merely informed various people of the Zandalari threat that he learned about due to no merit of his own, then offered a quest to kill Daakara

.

And now you're dishonest. He was the mastermind of those operations, he didn't "just inform" he was the major factor that undid Zandalari attacks. Did he had to tank the instances so you could see he was all the time there?
After defeating Draaka he appeared personally. to show that he is responsible for ending the threat. He gathered people, got all support he had, made assault and came out victorious. This is what matters. Now bring example of other racial leader who had this kind of involvement.

Also regarding the fights - I didn't see people complaining that Sylvanas in Pit of Saron didn't lift a finger in any fight that appeared there, not only that - she didn't even bother to help other troops.
And in halls of reflection she rushed to the Lich King only to have her ass handled and then running away with tail between her legs. She would've wiped us all if it wouldn't be for Flying ship saving us.

In 5.1 the expedition he led ended with him getting backstabbed from the front. Then comes Shadow of the Horde. And the first (and only) time military genius Vol'jin did anything meaningful ever. Whoo, you go Vol'jin.

That assault looked different in book, and said Shadows of the Horde is not first battle he was commanding. Undoing Zandalari before with minimal resources also counted.

After that was the Darkspear rebellion where everything is already handed to him on a silver platter,

how can you say that when he was the one who organised everything? He was the one who started it all. And he was the one who rushed quickly up to stop the bloodshed showing where his priorities lie.

You're extremely dishonest person. I understand that we all have our biases, I really dislike a lot of characters in WoW as they're plain awful, but I would never deny their involvement and credit for stuff they did.

starting with pre-liberated Echo Isles, thanks to Thrall.

At that time I was wondering where are Siame Quasi, the elite force that appeared in Cataclysm. But it's not first and not last thing that Blizzard forgotten.

The only real input from Vol'jin was sending half-naked morons straight into the Iron Juggernaut

He didn't send them, there was no command for that - if we're nitpicking. Sure it didn't exactly looked good in the raid but I believe it looked more dramatic than limited mechanics shown.

after the few sorry siege engines he brought with him were obliterated

On his defense though Iron Juggernaut was a big surprise. Vol'Jin actually sent spies to Orgrimmar - I'm sure you remember scenario with Gob Squad where they later said they need to report to Vol'Jin about stuff they learned. So it's more that Garrosh had some hidden aces up his sleeve, about Vol'Jin didn't had a chance to learn.
But you can't deny that he didn't use each option he had.

. If it wasn't for reinforcements from Sylvanas, Lor'themar, Jaina and Varian, he'd be biting dust. If it wasn't for Tyrande, he'd be sitting at the gates of Orgrimmar till kingdom's come.

They were meant to come, it was part of their deal and it was calculated. Btw I don't see you complaining that Sylvie, LTT and aethas were standing at the shore letting themselves get hit, having a players to defend their sorry ass as they clearly are incapable of doing that themselves, and also doing stuff for them ( using the harpoons on protos) as they refused to be useful at least once.

See how it works?

Next was WoD where he did pretty much nothing,

He did as much as Varian did.

then Legion, where all he did was managing to get backstabbed from the front again.

You should write complaint to developers, just as I did. This whole assasination thing in Pandaria was used as a major point in his character development, all his flaws were used to forge him into better being. He was meant to kept his scar on throat as a reminder to always stay alert.

entire brokenshore scenario was nothing but lore rape. everything that happened there was wrong.
Devs even brought back Spar'kuhl - shadow hunter that died in WoD. <- if that wasn't good enough proof that all of this was one big half arsed bullshit then I don't know what would be.
I'm still angry as hell that they got rid of him before creating a replacement. Vol'Jin could've easily be made into well balanced character. But It's obvious they wanted Sylvanas in charge, so they put whatever reason to get rid of him.
It was really insulting considering that the priest beginning quest for artifact was about clearing from fel infection. And we never heard of anyone dying to it before and after again, it was just Vol'Jin that had to go.

One lord of war you got here.

He was still better than Sylvanas. Her last vicory was in WC3 where she took over Ruinds of Lordaeron.
She got her position as general not because of competence but because of nepotism.
- if I was as dishonest as you I'd say she was quite retarded for telling Arthas about barriers that protect the kingdom. But I'm not, I know it was retconned that traitor was involved.
-She sent her forces to Nothrend, she got betrayed by Putress and Varimathras, she needed help of entire Horde to get back her city. She made an assault on Icecrown, she lost plenty of troops in Pit of Saron, almost died in Halls of Reflection, got saved in last minute thanks to Flying Battle ship.

Then we have Cataclysm, she made assault on Gilneas then got pushed back all the way back almost to Tirisfal Glades, after seeing that winning is impossible she blackmailed Crowley. Gilneas is still contested territory. She hired traitor Godfrey thinking ow how smart she is, and then she got shot - by said traitor - in the head. Who would've guessed?

Her forces managed to take over ruins in Arathi, and ressurect one of Trollbanes. Who would also betray her and making her lost said ruins of the castle.

And then we have Legion. After she was so much promoted at expense of Vol'Jin and put into spotlight - she finally has a chance to do something. And she did... she lost entire naval fleet to Godfrey after failint to take over that Val'kry.

We've got 7 cases of Vol'jin in command.

Command in game. We know from books that he was participating in plenty of assaults. He was also present at siege of Theramore.

Sylvanas? She led Thalassian forces during Second War.

Wasn't that Alleria? I know that Sylvanas was fighting, but no details.

And during Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas.

And lost.

The Forsaken insurrection against the Scourge. Thwarting Dreadlord forces. Personally led at least one attack against the Scarlet Crusade. Howling Fjord. Battle for the Undercity. Icecrown in 3.3. Gilneas. Silverpine. Andorhal. Bladefist Bay. Broken Shore. Stormheim.

So you admit she was only truly successful in retaking Lordaeron.
She didn't do anything in Howling Fjord, in Battle of Undercity she needed help of others. in Icecrown she failed and she even commited suicide. With Bladefist Bay we didn't see any forsaken troops, how do you know it wasn't just cameo? If you're so much about exploiting game mechanics to critic Vol'Jin and yet you don't use them against other characters? In Broken Shore she did what she knew best - run away. And in Stormheim the ending was that she lost her entire naval fleet.

Hardly achievements.

and the events of 3.3, she won them all

Since when running away for your life is winning?

[Skoll Shorties]

Possible. But at the same time I don't think they'll do anything with it. Rokhan is the current leader for now and they might make Vol'jin return or keep Rokhan on the seat. Time will tell I suppose.

[Deleted]

Possible. But at the same time I don't think they'll do anything with it. Rokhan is the current leader for now and they might make Vol'jin return or keep Rokhan on the seat. Time will tell I suppose.

Rokhan was a troll at the undeadcity meeting nothing more, like that makes you leader...

[In Ogres We Trust]

Yenniku is described as the youngest son of Vol'jin, implying that Vol'jin has multiple (or at the very least two children). I'm bringing this up because Blizzard has the opportunity to introduce a potentially new troll character that could (through progression) rise up to be a new Chieftain of the Darkspears.

Alternatively, if Blizz ever introduced racial campaigns, they could introduce multiple children of Vol'jin that could all fight for the status of Chieftain, causing a divide amongst thr Darkspears and possibly even pulling in other jungle troll tribes like the Horde-aligned Shatterspear.

I personally find it interesting as a concept, even though I'm at least 99% sure that Blizz has either forgotten or just doesn't give a shit. What do you think?

Blizzard should stop attempting to balance off killing racial leaders on each side (along with campaign issues). Vol'jin dying was "shit" storytelling.

[Skoll Shorties]

Rokhan was a troll at the undeadcity meeting nothing more, like that makes you leader...

It was described by a Blizzard Dev that Rokhan was made the unoffical Leader of the Darkspear Trolls.

"Information presented as coming from a supposed Blizzard Game Master says that Rokhan is now the unofficial leader of the Darkspear tribe"

But again that's for the game to decide. For now i'm gonna roll with it till they provide us with someone.

[Mehrunes]

Darkspears weren't meant to be major factor in the story to begin with. Vol'Jin was afterthought character, and from his short story we know that he was just a teen when he became a chieftain. It was quite a burden to deal with loss of father, becoming shadow hunter and taking leadership over tribe all at the same time.

Which is irrelevant to the story that we were given.

Compare that to Garrosh who was mopping in Nagrand in his thirties who refused to do anything, and you had to do all stuff yourself because he was that useless.
We also know that Vol'Jin was very active in founding Durotar from expanded lore. So his only fault was that he wasn't shown doing stuff.

Deflection. Other characters behaving worse than Vol'jin does not absolve Vol'jin of his failures. And every character is doing stuff in parts of lore that aren't shown. Sylvanas was Ranger General for years and she most likely wasn't twiddling her thumbs. But "stuff" isn't commanding an army. He could have been shitting in a bucket so that the Darkspears had building material for their huts for all we know. You don't get to substitute unspecified stuff for proof of Vol'jin's great military genius. This is headcanon material.

Again, it was just limitation of game mechanics. It's like saying that Garrosh did shit in Icecrown, as he was just sitting at doorstep and didn't move a feet. The whole scenario was about player assisting small group to infiltrate quickly to deal with Varimathras, if scenario would be about taking care of whole siege then it would look different.

What game limitation was it to make Vol'jin sit in a demolisher? Thrall and Sylvanas seemed to be free of it for some inexplicable reason. What game limitation was it that made him sit outside and do nothing of value? Again, did not apply to Thrall and Sylvanas. What game limitation was it that prevented Blizzard for putting any enemies on the ramparts to justify Vol'jin sitting outside? And Garrosh did something. He had a speaking role, which involved him rallying the Horde forces. The Horde forces that breached into the upper spire on Horde site.

Vol'Jin didn't need might of the Horde - I happen to still have letter from Vanira. It was a troll initiative where veterans are welcome to participate. But this whole event was done by trolls. If you're so nitpicky then even if every non troll player attended then he still needed to gather 5 trolls to assist him. So in the end the whole assault was by major part done by trolls.

Veterans of the Horde vs 5 Troll new recruits. Very comparable in military worth.

Darkspears were afterthought in vanilla WoW, they were added last minute just for the sake of having another playable race. When you consider that Zalazane took half of the tribe then you realise how dangerous oponent he was. And considering that Darkspears had to participate in other Horde campaigns it just shows that their priority was in helping Horde than themselves, and it's just after defeating Lich King they had possibility to rearrange their troops. (altho I believe it could've been done at the end of TBC instead of that Sunwell BS patch).

When in doubt, talk about how they were an afterthought some more! Come on, do address Vol'jin winning due to divine intervention. You're a champion of Vol'jin and honesty after all. And Sylvanas provided more forces in the war against the Lich King alone than Vol'jin provided in any Horde wars combined. She still managed to recapture her city immediately after it has been captured, with just Thrall and player assisting her. Also, what was BS about Sunwell? The planned conclusion to the TBC story?

Another thing is that even in vanilla Zalazane was described as very powerful sorcerer. Mage class quest sais that he was changing the magic flow of entire Durotar and was corrupting it's entire wildlife.

He could have been described as changing the flow in the entire multiverse, his observable feats were still shit. Even as far as Witch Doctors go, he was a shitstain compared to Jin'do. We needed much less resources to deal with Jin'do.

And lastly Zalazane was Vol'Jin's childhood friend. The treason was unexpected.

Other than him receiving a vision of it happening and being to weak to remember it for more than a day.

Which cannot be said about Sylvanas and Varimathras.

When in doubt, deflect!

And now you're dishonest. He was the mastermind of those operations, he didn't "just inform" he was the major factor that undid Zandalari attacks. Did he had to tank the instances so you could see he was all the time there?

Telling High Elves and Blood Elves that they need to defend their homeland isn't being a mastermind. Vol'jin did more against Zul'Gurub (but in the end wasn't present there at all, so some other Troll was leading).

After defeating Draaka he appeared personally. to show that he is responsible for ending the threat. He gathered people, got all support he had, made assault and came out victorious. This is what matters. Now bring example of other racial leader who had this kind of involvement.

"Victory be ours!" is not exactly Vol'jin taking all the credit. He didn't even lead all the troops, he didn't provide most of the troops. And Garrosh at Theramore? Thrall at Hyjal. Sylvanas at Silverpine.

Also regarding the fights - I didn't see people complaining that Sylvanas in Pit of Saron didn't lift a finger in any fight that appeared there, not only that - she didn't even bother to help other troops.
And in halls of reflection she rushed to the Lich King only to have her ass handled and then running away with tail between her legs. She would've wiped us all if it wouldn't be for Flying ship saving us.

How exactly would that be her specifically wiping us? Humor me.

That assault looked different in book, and said Shadows of the Horde is not first battle he was commanding. Undoing Zandalari before with minimal resources also counted.

I know it was not the first battle he was commanding. What do you think the above was?

how can you say that when he was the one who organised everything? He was the one who started it all. And he was the one who rushed quickly up to stop the bloodshed showing where his priorities lie.

What did he organize then? Because, once again, Thrall liberated Echo Isles. And this is what sparked the rebellion. This is why Garrosh sent a force to pacify Sen'jin village. A battle for which was carried by Thrall. Yay, he captured Razor Hill after Orc forces in the area were already weakened thanks to the failed attack on Sen'jin. Other than that, Alliance came to him on its own and he almost fucked up gaining their support, because he had to threaten them with Sylvanas out of all people. Blood Elves and the Forsaken didn't need an invitation by his own admission. Thrall acted on his own earlier and then acted on his own again when he went to Orgrimmar to gather Orc support.

You're extremely dishonest person. I understand that we all have our biases, I really dislike a lot of characters in WoW as they're plain awful, but I would never deny their involvement and credit for stuff they did.

Your post shows that you're embodiment of honesty that would never deny a character's credit alright

At that time I was wondering where are Siame Quasi, the elite force that appeared in Cataclysm. But it's not first and not last thing that Blizzard forgotten.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the bit you're quoting.

He didn't send them, there was no command for that - if we're nitpicking. Sure it didn't exactly looked good in the raid but I believe it looked more dramatic than limited mechanics shown.

Ah, so they acted on their own. Mutiny then. Good job Vol'jin, you inspire morale so much that people under your command would rather get obliterated by a mechanical scorpion abomination than suffer your leadership.

On his defense though Iron Juggernaut was a big surprise. Vol'Jin actually sent spies to Orgrimmar - I'm sure you remember scenario with Gob Squad where they later said they need to report to Vol'Jin about stuff they learned. So it's more that Garrosh had some hidden aces up his sleeve, about Vol'Jin didn't had a chance to learn.
But you can't deny that he didn't use each option he had.

He didn't strap explosives to the half-naked morons so that their death would at least mean something. And his siege weapons didn't exactly destroy themselves. Given that there were no True Horde siege weapons on top of the gate to destroy them, the only explanation is that he already fought against the Juggernaut for a while. Yet, still decided to utterly waste lives the way he did.

They were meant to come, it was part of their deal and it was calculated. Btw I don't see you complaining that Sylvie, LTT and aethas were standing at the shore letting themselves get hit, having a players to defend their sorry ass as they clearly are incapable of doing that themselves, and also doing stuff for them ( using the harpoons on protos) as they refused to be useful at least once.

See how it works?

And if they came 5 minutes later because they were stalled by a storm of Galakras, Vol'jin would be mincemeat. And oh no, characters get hit in a fight. Wat a surprise. Good for them that they fight back then, I guess. And can survive for quite a bit. And oh noes, they sent their underlings to the towers, a plan they came up with, while they were holding the main path. So I'm not sure what "it" you're referring here to begin with.

He did as much as Varian did.

And?

You should write complaint to developers, just as I did. This whole assasination thing in Pandaria was used as a major point in his character development, all his flaws were used to forge him into better being. He was meant to kept his scar on throat as a reminder to always stay alert.

Just because a character vows to do something or better themselves in a certain way doesn't mean they have to succeed at all times.

entire brokenshore scenario was nothing but lore rape. everything that happened there was wrong.

"Lore I don't like is verging on non-canon."

He was still better than Sylvanas. Her last vicory was in WC3 where she took over Ruinds of Lordaeron.
She got her position as general not because of competence but because of nepotism.

Fanfiction.

- if I was as dishonest as you I'd say she was quite retarded for telling Arthas about barriers that protect the kingdom. But I'm not, I know it was retconned that traitor was involved.

Ahahahahahahahaha. Is that what counts as honest in your book? "I could use material that's no longer canon, but I won't because I know it's no longer canon. Instead I'll use this as a material to build some nonexistent moral high ground for myself. Bow down in front of my generosity biased peasants!". Also, if that's my type of dishonest, do quote me using non-canon material, you liar.

-She sent her forces to Nothrend, she got betrayed by Putress and Varimathras, she needed help of entire Horde to get back her city. She made an assault on Icecrown, she lost plenty of troops in Pit of Saron, almost died in Halls of Reflection, got saved in last minute thanks to Flying Battle ship.

By your own earlier admission it was a small force. At least get your narrative consistent if you can't get it right.

Then we have Cataclysm, she made assault on Gilneas then got pushed back all the way back almost to Tirisfal Glades, after seeing that winning is impossible she blackmailed Crowley. Gilneas is still contested territory. She hired traitor Godfrey thinking ow how smart she is, and then she got shot - by said traitor - in the head. Who would've guessed?

She conquered Gilneas and pushed the Gilneans to abandon their homeland. She got pushed back only after Alliance got involved in a surprise submarine raid. Not just any Alliance force, but the 7th Legion. Which she defeated prior to the final confrontation. Just like she did with all Alliance forces north of the Greymane Wall. The battle was won even without the blackmail.

Her forces managed to take over ruins in Arathi, and ressurect one of Trollbanes. Who would also betray her and making her lost said ruins of the castle.

She didn't take over Stromgarde. Galen did on his own. During a Legion invasion.

And then we have Legion. After she was so much promoted at expense of Vol'Jin and put into spotlight - she finally has a chance to do something. And she did... she lost entire naval fleet to Godfrey after failint to take over that Val'kry.

Nevermind that she took her best ships with her after the fact. And that it still left other ships.

Command in game. We know from books that he was participating in plenty of assaults. He was also present at siege of Theramore.

Except I listed events from both games and books. At Theramore he was under Garrosh's command.

Wasn't that Alleria? I know that Sylvanas was fighting, but no details.

Yeah, Ranger General of Quel'thalas didn't lead anything when Anasterian decided to mobilize the High Elven army after all /s

And lost.

Vol'jin lost multiple times, you point? Sylvanas achieved more in stalling and damaging the Scourge more than the human kingdoms combined, to the point she pissed Arthas off. Vol'jin would have been steamrolled.

So you admit she was only truly successful in retaking Lordaeron.
She didn't do anything in Howling Fjord, in Battle of Undercity she needed help of others. in Icecrown she failed and she even commited suicide. With Bladefist Bay we didn't see any forsaken troops, how do you know it wasn't just cameo? If you're so much about exploiting game mechanics to critic Vol'Jin and yet you don't use them against other characters? In Broken Shore she did what she knew best - run away. And in Stormheim the ending was that she lost her entire naval fleet.

Hardly achievements.

Your "muh game mechanics" is nothing but a convenient whinefest. Nothing more. She led the assault against human forces at Vengeance Landing. In Battle for the Undercity she was leading as per Thrall's request. And oh noes, she needed help of others? What was Vol'jin leading then, you bundle of honesty and lack of bias? His clones? We saw Forsaken fleet and Val'kyr at Bladefist Bay, even had lore specifically mentioning her using the Val'kyr to attack the city. Muh game mechanics In Broken Shore she wasn't leading when the retreat was called. Last time I checked it was your bruddamon Vol'jin that called it, so your portrayal of events is abject horseshit. Sylvanas was reluctant to retreat by the look on her face. I talked about the time she was in command, i.e. prior to Vol'jin's arrival. Sylvanas arrived at the Broken Shore earlier. In Stormheim she lost only a few ships in a surprise attack and destroyed one of Alliance's remaining gunships. And what happened to the points about Scarlet Crusade and Andorhal? Were they lost in the ocean of your honesty?

Since when running away for your life is winning?

Ah, yes, cutting not only paragraphs in half, but even fucking sentences. I said other than 3.3, ye o paragon of honesty.

[Arrashi]

snip

I feel like your grip on reality and what is canon is weakening. I haven't seen this massive on fanfiction in one post since forever.

[Nalorakk]

The whole "I'm only important because my daddy was" shtick is so Alliance.

Horde characters tend to prove their worth from nothingness - familial ties (or lack there of) withstanding.

[Evangeliste]

The whole "I'm only important because my daddy was" shtick is so Alliance.

Horde characters tend to prove their worth from nothingness - familial ties (or lack there of) withstanding.

*Points you to Garrosh, Thrall witnessed Grom's sacrifice... which helped Garrosh status that allowed him to become Warchief*
*Points you to Vol'jin who got his crowing glory thanks to daddy Sen'jin's death, becoming a leader and not under his father's instruction*
*Points you to Baine who inherited his daddy's throne thanks to Cairne's death by Garrosh and Grimtotem*
*Points to Thrall who is literally one of the worse culprits to be elevated thanks to daddy*

Sorry you were saying?

Last time I checked only Anduin got that same privilege most recently and Horde were doing it long before that.

[Arrashi]

The whole "I'm only important because my daddy was" shtick is so Alliance.

Horde characters tend to prove their worth from nothingness - familial ties (or lack there of) withstanding.

*Cough* Vol'jin, garrosh, baine and thrall *cough*

[Evangeliste]

*Cough* Vol'jin, garrosh, baine and thrall *cough*

*High fives for quoting the same people*

[Techno-Druid]

@Evangeliste @Arrashi
Kind of the thing...Cairne was High Chieftain, so it would only make sense that Baine would take up the mantle. Same applies to Varian and Anduin and hopefully Blizzard will try to do the same for Vol'jin. Or at least make a pretty big deal out of Rokhan taking the mantle as Chieftain, considering he would essentially be starting a dynasty.

[Evangeliste]

@Evangeliste @Arrashi
Kind of the thing...Cairne was High Chieftain, so it would only make sense that Baine would take up the mantle. Same applies to Varian and Anduin and hopefully Blizzard will try to do the same for Vol'jin. Or at least make a pretty big deal out of Rokhan taking the mantle as Chieftain, considering he would essentially be starting a dynasty.

Well that's what we were saying, their daddy's importance paved their way to being involved not by their own strength of arms really. Baine/Anduin was more out of necessity compared to others, but out of them all Anduin seems to have gotten a little more development and had his story built on the character's self reflection then just accepting it due to Blizzard's lack of showing that awareness.
It's hard to say with Vol'jin. They pretty much swept a huge character under a rug without any real cause behind it say like this new upcoming Troll who is good or bad.

[steelballfc]

99% blizzard doesnt give a shit and or forgot, because we dont see any at his funeral.

But I like the idea for sure.

it can be add in a book
give blizzard a chance

- - - Updated - - -

Can someone explain to me what the deal is with "Med'an" ? I havn't heard or seen anything about him in world of warcraft, but when I read about him on wowwiki he sounds like he should be a very important character in the wow universe. And yet he's not even mentioned once ingame.

he is the lord
you don't see the lord

- - - Updated - - -

Hey hey hey. Orc lives mattered too once.

Garrosh did nothing wrong

we demand Thrall on trial

[Arrashi]

@Evangeliste @Arrashi
Kind of the thing...Cairne was High Chieftain, so it would only make sense that Baine would take up the mantle. Same applies to Varian and Anduin and hopefully Blizzard will try to do the same for Vol'jin. Or at least make a pretty big deal out of Rokhan taking the mantle as Chieftain, considering he would essentially be starting a dynasty.

It doesn't change the fact that they all got leadership thanks to their daddies and not their own achievements. I guess thrall would be the most accomplished one here, but even then, people gave him credit of trust only because of his father.

[steelballfc]

Rokhan was a troll at the undeadcity meeting nothing more, like that makes you leader...

he is maybe the only char you can push as "leader"

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't change the fact that they all got leadership thanks to their daddies and not their own achievements. I guess thrall would be the most accomplished one here, but even then, people gave him credit of trust only because of his father.

didn't thrall become warchife because Doomhammer said that, not because the orc's did want him to lead.

[Arrashi]

didn't thrall become warchife because Doomhammer said that, not because the orc's did want him to lead.

Yeah, but he came to his attention because he was son of durotan.

Unless doomhammer can just smell main protagonist from a kilometer and just found him that way.

[steelballfc]

Yeah, but he came to his attention because he was son of durotan.

Unless doomhammer can just smell main protagonist from a kilometer and just found him that way.

well the orc's have strong sense of smell, and thrall did smell the main antagonist aka garrosh.

[Ramz]

Which is irrelevant to the story that we were given.

No it's not, the details of the story does matter. It's like saying that Maghata's involvement in Cairne's death is irrevelant as he stil died.

Deflection. Other characters behaving worse than Vol'jin does not absolve Vol'jin of his failures.

No it's just showing that there are FAR worse cases than Vol'Jin is, and his mistakes aren't as dreadful as others. That the mistakes he did could be forged into proper character development as it was done in SotH, and make character progress.
I'm not saying he is perfect, far from it. I'm just tired of seeing people tossing shit on him when his only fault was that he wasn't allowed into spotlight for a long time, and major chunk of his development happened offscreen.

And every character is doing stuff in parts of lore that aren't shown. Sylvanas was Ranger General for years and she most likely wasn't twiddling her thumbs

.

How can you tell? Maybe she did. Got any source that shows what exactly was she doing?

But "stuff" isn't commanding an army. He could have been shitting in a bucket so that the Darkspears had building material for their huts for all we know.

First - That's orcish specialisation. Secondly- you just assumed stuff youself based on the fact that Sylvanas was just general and she wasn't shown participating in any battle. Yer for Vol'Jin who also wasn't shown participating in battles, and who is written to be part of it during founding of Durotar, you say that it doesn't count and it's headcannon.

You don't get to substitute unspecified stuff for proof of Vol'jin's great military genius. This is headcanon material.

I could replace Vol'Jin with Sylvanas and it's just as much true.

What game limitation was it to make Vol'jin sit in a demolisher?

Honestly ask devs, there is plenty of stuff they haven't done or adressed.

Thrall and Sylvanas seemed to be free of it for some inexplicable reason.

Lol what?

What game limitation was it that made him sit outside and do nothing of value?

Well to make raiders kill a boss and get loot, and not just sit and watch someone else do it?

Again, did not apply to Thrall and Sylvanas.

What? With Thrall I could kinda agree as he was heavily involved with Dragon Soul - and look how it pissed players.
With Sylvie - you mean that scene where Lich King almost Killed her? It was fun and I agree I'd like to see more stuff like that.

What game limitation was it that prevented Blizzard for putting any enemies on the ramparts to justify Vol'jin sitting outside?

Ask them not me. I was not working on that raid, I don't know what happened behind the scenes.

And Garrosh did something. He had a speaking role, which involved him rallying the Horde forces. The Horde forces that breached into the upper spire on Horde site.

Wow... He had a speech. That totally is changing things!

Veterans of the Horde vs 5 Troll new recruits. Very comparable in military worth.

I'm just saying that in the end it was all troll initiative. As the entire scenario was about Troll veterans preparing assault. It was their initiative and they finally dealt with it. This is what matters.

When in doubt, talk about how they were an afterthought some more!

But it is true. Don't pretend that WoW storywriting is competent, it's not a friggin Tolkien. There are enormous plotholes, lots of stuff that was forgotten or halfarsed or retconned. Darkspears weren't meant to get attention similar to Arthas for crying out loud. It's a small tribe, with small amount of attention, and it won't certainly change, not after their ONLY prominent hero was killed for no reason.

You're a champion of Vol'jin and honesty after all.

You know snide remarks aren't helping discussion. I am not not Vol'Jin's champion. I'm just disappointed on the way he was treated in Legion, and I really dislike when there are people on forums that use double standarts, it's the double standarts that irks me.

And Sylvanas provided more forces in the war against the Lich King alone than Vol'jin provided in any Horde wars combined.

Talking about headcanon...

She still managed to recapture her city immediately after it has been captured, with just Thrall and player assisting her.

Thrall, player and small forces were used just to infiltrate to city to stop Varimarthas. But it required mobilisation of Horde forces to actually recapture entire city - as Thrall himself said.

Also, what was BS about Sunwell? The planned conclusion to the TBC story?

The fact that Sunwell still existed, after Arthas used it's power to restore Kel'Thuzad. The whole transfomration from High to blood elves was because they got cut from it and needed to adapt to other means of living. And that all Blood elves were meant to emigrate to Outland. entire TBC was just one massive retcon to me. I could write a long text on what is wrong with this expansion, but that's not the subject here.

He could have been described as changing the flow in the entire multiverse, his observable feats were still shit. Even as far as Witch Doctors go, he was a shitstain compared to Jin'do. We needed much less resources to deal with Jin'do.

Well who knows, maybe he was comparable when it required assistance of Loa of the Dead to take down his protection, so he could be... killable.

Other than him receiving a vision of it happening and being to weak to remember it for more than a day.

Well it was written in the same short story that said visions were meant to get erased from his mind. It was used merely to test him, and see what decisions he would make. But I suppose you forgot about it.

When in doubt, deflect!

It's not deflection, it's comparision. You can't have good picture without having comparision and context.

Telling High Elves and Blood Elves that they need to defend their homeland isn't being a mastermind. Vol'jin did more against Zul'Gurub (but in the end wasn't present there at all, so some other Troll was leading).

He still organised all stuff. He picked people to do things, he was the one who prepared meetings. That is the role of leader. And trust me I really wish he did as much as his haters are saying "so did nothing". To actually see Amani reclaim their lands.

"Victory be ours!" is not exactly Vol'jin taking all the credit.

But he had the speech! And that is changing everything! Come on, if it works on Garrosh why it can't work for Vol'Jin? Don't use double standarts.

He didn't even lead all the troops,

He did. He was the who opened gates of Zul'Aman. Did you expect for him to tank entire instance so you could give him credit?

he didn't provide most of the troops.

He provided his elite shadow hunters. You just earlier said that it does matter of what rank is the warrior.

And Garrosh at Theramore?

That happened in Book, and you know that both Baine and Vol'Jin were involved aswell.

Thrall at Hyjal

Had a wedding ceremony.

. Sylvanas at Silverpine.

She had a speech and was shown giving some orders. It's only pity that only she was given that much attention, while other racial leaders didn't. And I'm sure people would like to see Tyrande doing something, Dwarven leaders do something, Baine, etc, etc. To be personally involved in assault.

How exactly would that be her specifically wiping us? Humor me.

It was a joking remark to show that majority of assaults she lead ended in people dying.
- in Pit of Saron she sends troops against scourgelord and wipes them.
- after you free people to get some support, she let them die because one orc annoyed her. wiping them again.

And I could find some other farfetched examples but that is beside the point. Majority of Sylvanas assaults are done carelessly imo, so Sylvanas wasted troops, Garrosh wasting troops is example of strategic genius, but in Siege of Orgrimmar where Vol'Jin had same incident. Vol'Jin gets the shit treatment even if his case is very strange to begin with - and strange in meaning that it contradicts his previous and later behavior.

Because, once again, Thrall liberated Echo Isles. And this is what sparked the rebellion. This is why Garrosh sent a force to pacify Sen'jin village. A battle for which was carried by Thrall. Yay, he captured Razor Hill after Orc forces in the area were already weakened thanks to the failed attack on Sen'jin

.

He was the one who pulled everyone to carry this revolution, he knew very well that Darkspears don't have enough resources to do everything themselves.
And you forget that Thrall wouldn't do anything if Vol'Jin wouldn't give him a sign. And that thing also spited many players as it looked like he wouldn't bother with it if it wouldn't be for Vol'Jin.

Other than that, Alliance came to him on its own and he almost fucked up gaining their support, because he had to threaten them with Sylvanas out of all people.

To be honest the entire dialoge was stupid. The alliance troop shouldn't ask this dumb question as he was already told by both SI:7 and Zen'Tabra why it is necessary to cooperate. But damage was done, instead of removing the question, they added stupid bicker that showed both sides to look stupid. Funny thing is that dev were able to do it for Tyrande, when she threatened Horde soldiers.

Blood Elves and the Forsaken didn't need an invitation by his own admission.

He said that Sylvanas don't have to have a reason to fight Garrosh. And said that LTT will come to support them, meaning that they talked and Blood elves are coming to help him. It's not like Belves and Sylvie came on a trip and decided to join a fight. They agreed to mobilise their efforts to dethrone Garrosh.

Thrall acted on his own earlier and then acted on his own again when he went to Orgrimmar to gather Orc support.

He still started to act after getting message from Vol'Jin.

Your post shows that you're embodiment of honesty that would never deny a character's credit alright

Maybe not embodiment, there is no need to do personal remarks. Why are you doing this? Am I your enemy or something? I'm trying my best to be as much objective as possible and not to let personal biases ruin proper discussion. In the end I know I'm on the lost position becuase I know that Blizzard writing will always go with "rule of cool" and not "rule of reason and logic". This is why I'm no longer playing this game, WoD was already a stretch, Legion completely killed any attachment I had for this game. However, I still do stuff related to concept art, even if it will be never implemented in this game.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the bit you're quoting.

It just shows that Blizzard forgets about a lot of stuff. One day X character has Y thing, another day he doesn't. Unless it's Blizzard darling, then he can get whatever he wants, even if there is no canon support for that. Like Varian getting blessing from nelven ancient out of nowhere.

Ah, so they acted on their own. Mutiny then. Good job Vol'jin, you inspire morale so much that people under your command would rather get obliterated by a mechanical scorpion abomination than suffer your leadership.

So predictable. I'm just saying we don't know exactly what happened, no order was given, we were meant to see siege weapons used but we didn't. And many more things that doesn't add up and leaves a big field for assumption. So yeah just like you I would really like to know why devs put so little attention to details, as there is still a lot of questions regarding this raid.

He didn't strap explosives to the half-naked morons so that their death would at least mean something.

Why you call them half-naked morons when they were fully armored?

Darkspears also were meant to have bat-riders. In WC3 this unit did thrown explosives, so again ask devs why it wasn't involved, when in 5.3. we clearly saw them on the sky.

And his siege weapons didn't exactly destroy themselves. Given that there were no True Horde siege weapons on top of the gate to destroy them, the only explanation is that he already fought against the Juggernaut for a while. Yet, still decided to utterly waste lives the way he did.

You just contradicted yourself regarding siege weapons. And we don't exactly know how this fight was meant to look like, as the stuff with siege weapon and orcish involvement is still a matter of discussion among fans. If you want to see who is wasting lives on purpose look on Sylvanas and Garrosh, Vol'Jin isn't the kind of guy to waste troops, even his short cameo in WoD is showing that is concerned about minimalising casulties.

And if they came 5 minutes later because they were stalled by a storm of Galakras, Vol'jin would be mincemeat.

If players wouldn't protect their arses they wouldn't do shit too.

Besides there were still troops behind. , it's not like all soldiers were wasted on Juggernaut.

And oh no, characters get hit in a fight. Wat a surprise. Good for them that they fight back then, I guess.

They did fought back? I didn't see anything.

And can survive for quite a bit. And oh noes, they sent their underlings to the towers, a plan they came up with, while they were holding the main path. So I'm not sure what "it" you're referring here to begin with.

Hahahahah but when Vol'Jin does the same, then it doesn't count . You can't swap narration as you like depending on whom it's concerning.

And?

And it just shows that it's not a character's fault but developers, if every racial leader is neglected then how come it's he who gets the harsh treatment?

Just because a character vows to do something or better themselves in a certain way doesn't mean they have to succeed at all times.

Well then how will you explain that in two books he was described as extremely good fighter on front lines, where he was able to fight for hours with plenty of blood thirsty warriors, and then in one event all this got forgotten and goes to hell. It's like suddenly forgetting that Sylvanas has Val'Kyr, or that Varian lost Lo'Gosh blessing (I think the fact that he had it in the first place was ridiculous, but if he was written to have it has to be shown). It's about lore consitency. Or you just like constant retcons depending if it hits the characters you don't like.

"Lore I don't like is verging on non-canon."

It's not about liking or disliking, or stating something is non-canon that I don't like. That is very stupid comparision. Me pulling arguments that shows lack of inconsistency is neither of that. I'm just bringing awareness that there is a mess, and seeing an outrage that appeared on lore forums, and discussions that were lasting for quite a long time it just shows I'm not the only one that has problem with it.

It's about keeping basic storytelling rules. If you build up chracter to certain position then show him do something, otherwise those are wasted resources. If you write that certain character has X-remark, then don't conveniantly forget about it later and so on.
Storywriting has it's own rules.

Fanfiction.

Sylvanas getting promoted just because Alleria didn't wanted the title is a canon.

Ahahahahahahahaha. Is that what counts as honest in your book? "I could use material that's no longer canon, but I won't because I know it's no longer canon. Instead I'll use this as a material to build some nonexistent moral high ground for myself. Bow down in front of my generosity biased peasants!".

Judging by reaction I think I got a point. And I don't need moral highground mr Freud, I don't know where did you get it from. I called you out on using double standarts and conveniantly forgetting about certain details. And yet you took it personally and started to thow personal remarks at me. Do I really need to write on how does it look like?

Also, if that's my type of dishonest, do quote me using non-canon material, you liar.

What a butthurt.

By your own earlier admission it was a small force. At least get your narrative consistent if you can't get it right.

xD Jesus...

Ok again. Sylvanas needed small force to infiltrate Undercity just to get to Varimathras. Vol'Jin was the one who was in the charge of siege which required Horde mobilisation - as we know from Thrall himself.
Now is it clear?

She conquered Gilneas and pushed the Gilneans to abandon their homeland. She got pushed back only after Alliance got involved in a surprise submarine raid. Not just any Alliance force, but the 7th Legion. Which she defeated prior to the final confrontation. Just like she did with all Alliance forces north of the Greymane Wall. The battle was won even without the blackmail.

That's not what Sylvanas herself said. Blackmail was necessary because she saw that Worgen can't be stopped. In the end Gilneas is not conquered, it's occupied territory. Hardly a victory.

She didn't take over Stromgarde. Galen did on his own. During a Legion invasion.

They raised Galen for that purpose. But he wanted to play solo and not for Banshee Queen.

Nevermind that she took her best ships with her after the fact. And that it still left other ships.

Still... quite a waste isn't it? Last time this spectacular disaster was in Twilight Highlands under Garrosh. Although admittedly Garrosh case was much more stupid.

Except I listed events from both games and books. At Theramore he was under Garrosh's command.

This is giving me headache.
I started my statement with comparing involvement of racial leaders in games. Secondly, Sylvanas in books only had one assault from what I know and that was against Arthas. I don't know when and where and how was she leading, so how can I judge her? Based on what? I only know that she treated her subordinates like "arrows in the quiver".

Vol'jin lost multiple times

All three of them?(I'm counting with Legion scenario).

, you point?

If you don't get my point by now then there is really no reason to continue this discussion. I honestly don't know how can I be any more clear on this subject.

Sylvanas achieved more in stalling and damaging the Scourge more than the human kingdoms combined, to the point she pissed Arthas off. Vol'jin would have been steamrolled.

Really? Both Lordaeron and Q'T were steamrolled. She stalled Lich King but that's it. The only kingdom that actually was able to defend themselves from Scourge but at the high cost was Zul'Drak. But I don't write praise letters to Drakkari Warlords/ priests/ whatever, even if their fight was as much fierce and dreadful.

As For Vol'Jin - Of course he would be, his tribe is very small. Unless you'd like for him to get into god mode.

Your "muh game mechanics" is nothing but a convenient whinefest. Nothing more.

Oh so I'm the one who is looking for conveninet stuff, that's truly hilarious, considering I called you out few times already when you use double standarts. And guess what? In games like wow game mechanics does matter and are the reason why the story is so "strangled". Should I bring you list of examples? It's not about Vol'Jin, it's about entire WoW that is this way.

She led the assault against human forces at Vengeance Landing.

I didn't see her in Howling Fjord, and I recently did quests there.

And oh noes, she needed help of others? What was Vol'jin leading then, you bundle of honesty and lack of bias? His clones?

Seriously chill down man, it's not a personal war or anything like that. All I did was using your kind of narration to show how faulty it is. I never said that getting help is bad thing but what matters are circumstances, which we need to ge into consideration if we want to have bigger picture.

We saw Forsaken fleet and Val'kyr at Bladefist Bay, even had lore specifically mentioning her using the Val'kyr to attack the city.

I don't recall seeing Val'kyr, and I had to double check and yeah there were 3 ships which were kinda hidden as Alliance ships were exposed. Plenty of people asked where exactly were forsaken as nobody saw them appearing at all in entire raid.

Muh game mechanics

Not "muh". If it would be "Muh" then it wouldn't be this half-arsed.

In Broken Shore she wasn't leading when the retreat was called.

Considering that all attention was on her the entire time you'd get the other idea.

Last time I checked it was your bruddamon Vol'jin that called it, so your portrayal of events is abject horseshit.

Jesus... can you get any lower than that? He is not my bruddahmon, and this is not personal war again. Can you talk about stuff without getting this emotionally involved? You act like Twilight fan-girl.

Sylvanas was reluctant to retreat by the look on her face. I talked about the time she was in command, i.e. prior to Vol'jin's arrival. Sylvanas arrived at the Broken Shore earlier.

She was still in command after Vol'Jin's arrival. The moment Horde reached Sylvanas, he went mute, writers completely forgot about him. You'd imagine Varian would have more to talk over with him rather than Sylvanas.

In Stormheim she lost only a few ships in a surprise attack and destroyed one of Alliance's remaining gunships.

And...?

And what happened to the points about Scarlet Crusade and Andorhal? Were they lost in the ocean of your honesty?

I didn't noticed it initially as when I write at late night I tend to miss some stuff. And yet Andorhal was sucessfully taken. But then again I'm not fixated on rolling Sylvanas with dirt, and I don't have issues with admitting someone else's credit. All this talk was to show he gets waay too much shit for stuff he did when other racial leaders for even worse mistakes get praised.

Ah, yes, cutting not only paragraphs in half, but even fucking sentences. I said other than 3.3, ye o paragon of honesty.

-_-

Did I do something to you that you're acting like that? I try to understand this petty attitude but I fail.
As for sentence - I'm sorry, my mistake - I read it wrong due to tireness.


But I still strongly disagree that besides of 3.3. Sylvanas assaults were only successful.

I didn't Intend on starting this big discussion, especially when Darkspear case is basically over already, I guess you are happy about it. I am not, as I want for each race and their racial leader to have satisfying story going for them, but Legion made it clear that this won't happen. I realised that races that were neglected for years will still be neglected and we will still cling to characters that are popular instead of creating new ones like Nazgrim and Taylor.