Anatomy of a Russian Propaganda Troll

[Blue Minuteman]

The irony is that Orwell wrote "1984" after his experience of working in BBC

What I don't understand is how you could care so little about your own countrymen being murdered by your dictator? I care, and I am an American. What does that say about you? Certainly, that you are not a patriot.

[Haven]

What I don't understand is how you could care so little about your own countrymen being murdered by your dictator? I care, and I am an American. What does that say about you? Certainly, that you are not a patriot.

Lol proofs please.

The problem with Americans is that they selectively "care" about not their goddamn business. Go to Africa for fucks's sake, set Somalia straight. It's nearly impossible to screw that country more than how it already is. Heck, Africa is full of such countries.

[Skroe]

Believe me, we are keenly aware. Having said that, it's not the only thing he does, and his vertical power system of governance is semi-effective (if thoroughly corrupt). That makes it preferable to rabid, free-for-all, teeth-bared opportunism of the nineties with gunfire in the streets and Zimbabwe-tier inflation.

Had there actually been a benevolent democratic alternative, millions would vote for it in a heartbeat - but there isn't. As per the most recent elections, aside from the centrist government block endorsed by Putin we have two communist parties that are now at each other's throats after the schism and the liberal-democratic party headed by Zhirinovsky (our local sensationalist equivalent of Trump who is most famous for saying things like "Bush, you shitty cowboy, go to your ranch in Texas - or better yet let's fuck Tbilisi together" and "A woman must stay at home, cook, mend socks and weep"). The world is not big enough for two Trumps.

Eventually an alternative will present itself, even though Putin is doing his best to make sure it doesn't. Until then, we're choosing the lesser of many evils.

I'm sure you know the feeling well after having to choose between Trump and Clinton.

I never understood exactly what you're expressing here.

In, let's say 1997, the early Russian Federation political / economic system... still forming mind you... had to throw off over 80 years of Soviet grime and modernize. While the West had been through all the painful learning processes of the 20th century - the great depression, hyper-inflation, the emergence, decline and re-emergence of various economic and social theories - the Soviet Union was isolated from it. It didn't go through the try-fail-learn-try again process of getting from where we were socially, politically and economically in 1917 to where we were in 1997.

How was, in other words, the transition from a Soviet command economy to a free market one, and a transition from an authoritarian regime to a representitive democratic ever going to be anything less than incredibly painful... pretty much the worst thing ever. How can a country transition from 80 years of doing something so polar opposite from where it wanted to be, and it not be completely and life ruining awful? Hell the economic transitions in the west from 1970-1990 were no picnic (read about them), and we were neck deep in free market capitalism.

You complain about free wheeling and Zimbabwe-like state of being. How on earth was the ex-USSR ever going to become something better without taking a tour through the shit? Depression. Hyperinflation. Industrial decline. Because of what the Soviet system was by its very nature, it was always in the cards.

For smaller ex-Eastern block countries that were put under the West's wing, the process has taken 25 years and cost trillions of dollars. And it's still not done. It'll take another generation, at the very least, to homogenize them with the rest of the West. But that is entirely proper. And they've come a long way.

For Russia... one of the many reasons I hold Russians in such utter contempt is because they gave it basically five years, then contrary to their overinflated reputation as a people with a steel backbone, when the going got tough, crumbled and ran to the first strong man figure to show up, in this case the ex Mayor of Saint Petersburg and Yesltin's 3rd (4th?) Prime Minister.

Putin killed Russia's nascent democracy and replaced the free-wheeling oligarchs with his own ex-KGB oligarchs. "the shit" still awaits you people after Putin. Or after whoever comes after Putin. There is absolutely no way Russia becomes a modern, democratic, truly free country without going through a generation of misery. So you people either take your medicine now, or you take your medicine later. But you will take your medicine.

And for the record, though I agreed with Hillary Clinton on about 25% of the issues, she was eminently qualified to be President. It was certainly not a "lesser of two evils" situation. A political disagreement is just that. The election was between a center-left Democrat and some American abandoning their democratic principles in favor of a demagogue saying he'll fix everything for them. And the center-left democrat got more votes. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to win in our bizarrely arcane system.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol proofs please.

The problem with Americans is that they selectively "care" about not their goddamn business. Go to Africa for fucks's sake, set Somalia straight. It's nearly impossible to screw that country more than how it already is. Heck, Africa is full of such countries.

The world is our business Haven. That should be clear as day by now. You just live here.

- - - Updated - - -

The irony is that Orwell wrote "1984" after his experience of working in BBC

Orwell wrote 1984 from 1944-1948. He chose 1984 to flip around the numbers from '1948'.

It was written to be a cautionary story about the direction the then-emerging (but still in the future) Cold War could lead society.

Orwell of course, ended up being dead wrong about the Cold War. The West slew the Soviet bear, and didn't fall prey to what 1984 suggested we could.

[Haven]

The world is our business Haven. That should be clear as day by now. You just live here.

That was like waving a two inches long flaccid dick. You can't even sort out your own country.

[Skroe]

That was like waving a two inches long flaccid dick. You can't even sort out your own country.

So now the President of the United States is "the entire country". How positively Russian of you, to mistake the status of the national leader with the status of the country.

No. The country is the same, in some ways better, than it was a year ago. The danger from Donald Trump is what he's done along the edges of national policy (things like roll back regulations), the risk of what he might do if unopposed over the long term, and the judgement to come for his collusion with Russia because, to put it bluntly, this country hates you people.

This is an argument of principles and the theoretical. But in 2017, the US economy is still the envy of the world, the US military is still by far the mightiest force the world has ever known, and the American people are living and actively taking part in easily the most dynamic political period in my life time. That's a lot of good, with a pile of shit on the top. Solution: remove the pile of shit.

I'm convinced when all is said and done, the collapse of the Trump Administration will be regarded as a positive moment for America and for democracy. It's easy to be a saint in paradise, as the saying goes. Now an entire generation of Americans get to stand up and fight for their democratic (small d) cred. When this is over we'll get to point to tossing our would be authoritarian figure out of office and say "we did that". And of course, Russia pays for it's interference until the end of time.

Overcoming adversity makes us stronger. As a contemporary Russian, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. When the going got tough, you people ran into Vladmir Putin's arms. Twice.

Oh and I just want to point out, this level of "political upheaval" is still a far cry form the late 1960s and 1970s. And on the other end of that was the 1980s when that generation of Americans slaughtered the Soviet Empire.

So count us out at your own peril. That is after all, what Russians have always done.

[Shalcker]

For Russia... one of the many reasons I hold Russians in such utter contempt is because they gave it basically five years, then contrary to their overinflated reputation as a people with a steel backbone, when the going got tough, crumbled and ran to the first strong man figure to show up, in this case the ex Mayor of Saint Petersburg and Yesltin's 3rd (4th?) Prime Minister.

"Crumbled"? There was huge political fight and multiple elections, some parties lost and disappeared, some won, and those who won more merged into "United Russia" - first as coalition block, later as single party - which wasn't even initially strictly pro-Putin.

They endorsed Putin (who have shown himself to be moderately capable), and their only big "opponents" were Communists and Nationalists, with the rest (including "pure democracy and free market" adherents like Yabloko) falling to sidelines, but "United Russia" didn't even held a majority in Duma until 2007.

Democracy wasn't "killed" - it worked. People wanted re-consolidation of power rather then free reign of oligarchs, they voted for it, and they got it.

Democracy doesn't always produce anything like Western society.

[Santti]

"Crumbled"? There was huge political fight and multiple elections, some parties lost and disappeared, some won, and those who won more merged into "United Russia" - first as coalition block, later as single party - which wasn't even initially strictly pro-Putin.

They endorsed Putin (who have shown himself to be moderately capable), and their only big "opponents" were Communists and Nationalists, with the rest (including "pure democracy and free market" adherents like Yabloko) falling to sidelines, but "United Russia" didn't even held a majority in Duma until 2007.

Democracy wasn't "killed" - it worked. People wanted re-consolidation of power rather then free reign of oligarchs, they voted for it, and they got it.

Democracy doesn't always produce anything like Western society.

I'm not entirely convinced of Russia's version of democracy.

(Which is one of the many things wrong with Russia supervising the voting in Crimea, but that's off-topic).

[Shalcker]

I'm not entirely convinced of Russia's version of democracy.

Do you stop believing American democracy when some channel shows voting percentages exceeding 100% too?

(which also happened)

Obviously, 146% is a meme in Russia. But voting happens pretty much in line with previous polls (as it happened in Crimea too).

I guess you could argue that "authorities" rig elections to fit polls? (even distinctly independent polls)

[Skroe]

Do you stop believing American democracy when some channel shows voting percentages exceeding 100% too?

(which also happened)

Obviously, 146% is a meme in Russia. But voting happens pretty much in line with previous polls (as it happened in Crimea too).

I guess you could argue that "authorities" rig elections to fit polls? (even distinctly independent polls)

This post is legitimately the distillation of what this thread is about.

Mods should just rename the entire thing to "@Shalcker. "

[Elegiac]

Do you stop believing American democracy when some channel shows voting percentages exceeding 100% too?

(which also happened)

Obviously, 146% is a meme in Russia. But voting happens pretty much in line with previous polls (as it happened in Crimea too).

I guess you could argue that "authorities" rig elections to fit polls? (even distinctly independent polls)

When the state has such a compelling 'interest' in the media it behooves them to produce results that the state finds desirable.

[Shalcker]

When the state has such a compelling 'interest' in the media it behooves them to produce results that the state finds desirable.

What, state finds desirable to get opposition candidates winning? :/

...it is conspiracy theory on par with "Deep State vs Trump".

[Santti]

Do you stop believing American democracy when some channel shows voting percentages exceeding 100% too?

(which also happened)

Obviously, 146% is a meme in Russia. But voting happens pretty much in line with previous polls (as it happened in Crimea too).

I guess you could argue that "authorities" rig elections to fit polls? (even distinctly independent polls)

A meme? I guess you could call it that. They didn't appear to be too fond of this meme, though.

Is it something in the past and all is forgiven?

[Haven]

So now the President of the United States is "the entire country". How positively Russian of you, to mistake the status of the national leader with the status of the country.

No. The country is the same, in some ways better, than it was a year ago. The danger from Donald Trump is what he's done along the edges of national policy (things like roll back regulations), the risk of what he might do if unopposed over the long term, and the judgement to come for his collusion with Russia because, to put it bluntly, this country hates you people.

This is an argument of principles and the theoretical. But in 2017, the US economy is still the envy of the world, the US military is still by far the mightiest force the world has ever known, and the American people are living and actively taking part in easily the most dynamic political period in my life time. That's a lot of good, with a pile of shit on the top. Solution: remove the pile of shit.

I'm convinced when all is said and done, the collapse of the Trump Administration will be regarded as a positive moment for America and for democracy. It's easy to be a saint in paradise, as the saying goes. Now an entire generation of Americans get to stand up and fight for their democratic (small d) cred. When this is over we'll get to point to tossing our would be authoritarian figure out of office and say "we did that". And of course, Russia pays for it's interference until the end of time.

Overcoming adversity makes us stronger. As a contemporary Russian, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. When the going got tough, you people ran into Vladmir Putin's arms. Twice.

Oh and I just want to point out, this level of "political upheaval" is still a far cry form the late 1960s and 1970s. And on the other end of that was the 1980s when that generation of Americans slaughtered the Soviet Empire.

So count us out at your own peril. That is after all, what Russians have always done.

Your every post is just golden. And the part I love the most is your doomsaying. Remember how you said Russia is about to collapse and its economy is done for, way back in 2014?

[Mormolyce]

Your every post is just golden. And the part I love the most is your doomsaying. Remember how you said Russia is about to collapse and its economy is done for, way back in 2014?

Looks like you took a pretty big hit in 2014. Yikes.

GDP per capita is below Eastern Europe. Oh the irony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita

[Shalcker]

A meme? I guess you could call it that. They didn't appear to be too fond of this meme, though.

That meme is mostly about United Russia, not Putin though.

"Good Tsar, Bad Boyars".

Is it something in the past and all is forgiven?

It was mistake of channel program that had wrong numbers as base, not some "evidence" that everything is cooked (because noone can get actual 146% no matter how hard they rig elections - even Chechnya only gets 99%).

Exactly to dispel those suspicions after that they had "camera in every voting place, streaming 24h, available to everyone online" from big cities to distant villages for Presidential elections - transparency US cannot even dream of.

[Haven]

Looks like you took a pretty big hit in 2014. Yikes.

GDP per capita is below Eastern Europe. Oh the irony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita

Aaaaaand? Last I checked, Russia still existed on the map. Measuring GDPenises was never an indicator. And there's been much worse periods.

[Mormolyce]

Aaaaaand? Last I checked, Russia still existed on the map.

Bwaahaahahahaha!

Okay, score one for you, there are lines on the map with "Russia" written inside of them. Winning!

[downnola]

Lol proofs please.

You guys are like living, breathing memes.

[Shalcker]

Okay, score one for you, there are lines on the map with "Russia" written inside of them. Winning!

Decline has little to do with US sanctions and was long coming.

And it is good thing. Because the only way to get changes is to make current situation unsustainable. Thus the only real way to get off oil/gas dependency is for oil price to drop and other areas to become relatively more important that way.

Btw, i would point out to this as best explanation of current Russian economic problems.

[Haven]

Bwaahaahahahaha!

Okay, score one for you, there are lines on the map with "Russia" written inside of them. Winning!

These lines are moving, baby. Crimea river.