"Blizzard Games Will Stop Working on Older Windows Versions"

[Elim Garak]

People are generalizing that everyone should upgrade, which is stupid.

Everyone should upgrade, because it's smart, cept for you, you don't need to upgrade.

[Temp name]

This is probably the worst place to ask this question BUT what's the deal with Win10? I have been using it since 2015 on a 3000$ laptop and it's a piece of sh*t in every aspect, I'm only keeping it because I paid $ for my license and it's pointless to downgrade.

If you spent 3k on a laptop, another 100 shouldn't hurt your wallet too much

*1000 integrated background applications which can't be stopped, respectively they impair your gaming experience

.. They barely take up any CPU time, and they run on other windows versions as well, Win10 just lets you see them

*absolutely horrid menus which load 10 times slower than on older versions of windows

.. Which menus? The start menu opens just as fast as it did on win7 for me

*Microsoft Edge is the worst internet explorer in existence

Which is why you can download other browsers. Neat, huh?

*the standard apps to watch media are frustrating to the point where you just download something bearable from the internet

Again, you can download others. You had to do that for older windows versions too because the default one is ALWAYS bad

*has these shady processes which keep track of all your actions

That you can turn off. Not really that hard

[haxartus]

That you can turn off. Not really that hard

Actually you can't. Not even on Enterprise.
http://winaero.com/blog/regardless-p...e-phones-home/

What is described in the article above, with the screenshots as proof, is not behaving like an operating system but as malware.

[Mormolyce]

Who is honestly still using Windows XP or Vista? I mean i know somewhere in the world that may be someones only choice but these OS are ancient now.

A lot of people don't bother to upgrade Windows, since it adds almost no features, has significant bloat and generally gets worse with each edition.

One could contend that a well designed OS shouldn't need updates, and that patches would be more than sufficient... but MS still operates on a 1980s business model.

Indeed, anyone who values performance would have upgraded to at least 8 or greater.

What are you talking about, there are no noticeable performance advantages to upgrading Windows.

I used 98 and XP until years after support ceased. The only thing that happens to old versions of Windows is that eventually games stop running in them and you have to upgrade. Performance is not a factor.

If I'm being really generous, Windows 7 & 10 had slightly faster boot times than XP. But that's really because Windows already had excessive load times...

[rda]

Actually you can't. Not even on Enterprise. There have been studies about this.

What processes are we talking about?

Sharing personal data? Disabled on the start screen right when you install. They do manage to hide it by using clickable text instead of a button, but it is there. If you didn't turn that off during install, you can turn everything off later.

Telemetry? Doesn't it anonymize data? Does it even exchange data outside of Windows Update?

Antivirus protection with Defender? Yes, you cannot turn that off if you are running Home. It's not bad, however, it improved lots and is rarely getting in the way. Although I still do turn it off on Pro+.

I am not seeing much. What specifically are you concerned with?

Technology-wise, Windows 10 is a big step forward from previous versions of Windows. By the unspoken law of Microsoft every other Windows has to be trash, so perhaps the version following Windows 10 might be bad, but Windows 10 is the good one even with the law in mind. :-)

[haxartus]

What processes are we talking about?

Sharing personal data? Disabled on the start screen right when you install. They do manage to hide it by using clickable text instead of a button, but it is there. If you didn't turn that off during install, you can turn everything off later.

Telemetry? Doesn't it anonymize data? Does it even exchange data outside of Windows Update?

Antivirus protection with Defender? Yes, you cannot turn that off if you are running Home. It's not bad, however, it improved lots and is rarely getting in the way. Although I still do turn it off on Pro+.

I am not seeing much. What specifically are you concerned with?

Technology-wise, Windows 10 is a big step forward from previous versions of Windows. By the unspoken law of Microsoft every other Windows has to be trash, so perhaps the version following Windows 10 might be bad, but Windows 10 is the good one even with the law in mind. :-)

This as well as a numerous other articles and studies about this. Including packet analysis that I've done.

Yeah, you can't tell what is being shared due to encryption. But something is being shared with all settings turned off, and A LOT. It's not only error reporting data as there are no errors in the logs during that time.

[rda]

What are you talking about, there are no noticeable performance advantages to upgrading Windows.

On old hardware the performance will stay mostly the same.

On new hardware the performance of newer versions of Windows will be greater than that of older versions. Frequently, significantly greater.

[Mormolyce]

On old hardware the performance will stay mostly the same.

On new hardware the performance of newer versions of Windows will be greater than that of older versions. Frequently, significantly greater.

If any such performance increase exists, which I have seen no evidence of, you'd have to adjust that against the additional resources later versions of Windows hog, assuming they even run on this old hardware.

Seriously, in practical terms there is no real performance advantage in upgrading Windows.

[rda]

This as well as a numerous other articles and studies about this. Including packet analysis that I've done.

Yeah, you can't tell what is being shared due to encryption. But something is being shared with all settings turned off, and A LOT. It's not only error reporting data as there are no errors in the logs during that time.

Thanks for the link.

Yeah, that's something, I agree.

The bulk of it is telemetry, which, as I said, is supposed to be anonymized. Here's the gist of what they are sending: "update patch {...} failed to apply, driver {...} from update patch {...} reported issue HG24...8 with the following additional data: 66 AF 28 ..., etc, etc, etc. These things help determine what drivers are failing too often, what shims need installed / revoked, etc.

Yes, I agree that since everything is encrypted, you can reason that maybe they are sneaking some other data into it. But it's a hard choice. Do you not want them to be able to tell what things work in the wild and what fail? Then you will pay by having the system be less stable. Do you want them to use telemetry but send all data unencrypted? Well, then others can see what is going on on your system, isn't that a risk? That's why they encrypt it. Maybe the solution is for you to be able to decrypt data sent from your system. The logistics of that would be hard, but maybe it would be worth doing on the part of Microsoft.

Things other than telemetry do look strange, yes. However, I suspect that most are just bugs or plain unrelated to Windows (some third-party component). This happens all the time. Still, worth investigating / reporting to Microsoft.

- - - Updated - - -

If any such performance increase exists, which I have seen no evidence of, you'd have to adjust that against the additional resources later versions of Windows hog, assuming they even run on this old hardware.

Seriously, in practical terms there is no real performance advantage in upgrading Windows.

Well, Windows 7 was a revolution for computers with multiple network cards, for example. Yes, that's mostly for servers. Here's something for the client: DirectX 12. That's a revolution for GPUs. When enough games catch up, you will be able to tell the difference with a naked eye. Windows 7 - no DirectX 12 - half the framerate / lower graphics options than Windows 10 on the exact same system, things like that. Rendering in multiple threads simultaneously does help.

There are plenty of things like that in every release of Windows. People just tend to not notice the improvements when they are at their ideal - silently improving things with no fuss. But when you go to an older version of Windows, well, you notice.

[Lahis]

Here's something for the client: DirectX 12. That's a revolution for GPUs. When enough games catch up, you will be able to tell the difference with a naked eye. Windows 7 - no DirectX 12 - half the framerate / lower graphics options than Windows 10 on the exact same system, things like that. Rendering in multiple threads simultaneously does help.

At this rate Microsoft will release Windows 11 and DX 13.5 before DX12 has become anywhere near widespread requirement for games.

[Elim Garak]

At this rate Microsoft will release Windows 11 and DX 13.5 before DX12 has become anywhere near widespread requirement for games.

There will be no windows 11 in foreseeable future. The version number might increase past 11 even, but you won't be installing a completely different version of windows as you were used to - you will just Update your system, as you normally do on windows 10 now. There will be no way to "stay on 10 because 11's rubbish"

[rda]

At this rate Microsoft will release Windows 11 and DX 13.5 before DX12 has become anywhere near widespread requirement for games.

DX13.5 will likely be a build-up on DX12 then, rather than another revolution.

Rewriting for DX12 is hard (especially if you weren't prepared). But so what. You get enormous benefits from doing that.

That's in the same spot as going from 32-bit to 64-bit and going from single core to multiple cores. All of this is hard, and, yeah, many programs that could benefit are still 32-bit / single-core because it's hard, but nobody would say that the benefits aren't there - they absolutely are.

[haxartus]

The bulk of it is telemetry, which, as I said, is supposed to be anonymized.

The problems with Windows 10 are the following:

1. Telemetry can't be turned off. It still sends a lot of data even on the lowest settings.

2. We can't verify what data exactly is being sent, if it's anonymized, or anything specific whatsoever.

3. Windows 10 installing bloatware (Candy Crush) without asking the user, reinstalling it if uninstalled by the user and adding firewall rules for the bloatware. This creates a few issues, including, but not limited to:
-clogging the system with unwanted software
-installing 3rd party code on the users without asking, which is creating a security problem as the code of the app may be of lower quality than the core Windows itself
-lack of transparency of what the 3rd party app may be doing

4. Windows 10 installing updates in cumulative patches, with no options to stop the updates, no option to choose what updates you want (maybe you want only security updates), and no transparency about what exactly is in the updates.

Microsoft reserves the right to run any code they want on your machine at any time, without asking and without telling you what it is. This has proven to reset user settings, which again creates a security risk. This also means that any of the above points (1-3) could get worse at any time, or more points may appear. You are entirely dependent on Microsoft for the usage of your PC and they can do anything they want with it at any time without any permission from you.

[Lahis]

DX13.5 will likely be a build-up on DX12 then, rather than another revolution.

Rewriting for DX12 is hard (especially if you weren't prepared). But so what. You get enormous benefits from doing that.

That's in the same spot as going from 32-bit to 64-bit and going from single core to multiple cores. All of this is hard, and, yeah, many programs that could benefit are still 32-bit / single-core because it's hard, but nobody would say that the benefits aren't there - they absolutely are.

Maybe DX12 will become used after 2020 when W7 support officially ends (or dunno, could be extended beyond that if the market share is still big enough) and devs can assume most customers will have it. Right now you are shutting off half of the gaming market share according to Steam survey and 73% of all market share according to Netmarketshare if you require DX12.

[rda]

1. Telemetry can't be turned off. It still sends a lot of data even on the lowest settings.

2. We can't verify what data exactly is being sent, if it's anonymized, or anything specific whatsoever.

I hear you, but I will just address the above, because that's the gist of the issues. (Other items can and should be fixed, yes.)

If you want automatic updates, you can't avoid sending data about your system to the mothership. Period.

The vast majority of people want automatic updates and benefit from them. I want them, too. They are solving real issues.

If you don't want automatic updates, OK, fine, whatever. Windows is not for you. Use something where you can inspect every step of the way. But if you think that this is a wise decision for others, think again. Again, automatic updates solve real issues. Restructuring your workflow so that you don't have them will avoid the risk of sending data about your system you don't want sent to whoever issues automatic updates, but in return you will have *much* slower patching and will be *much* more exposed to security issues. You can't win, you can't have best of both worlds. You can only choose. That's not something that Microsoft has created, that's just how things work. Welcome to the real world.

[haxartus]

Restructuring your workflow so that you don't have them will avoid the risk of sending data about your system you don't want sent to whoever issues automatic updates, but in return you will have *much* slower patching and will be *much* more exposed to security issues. You can't win, you can't have best of both worlds. You can only choose. That's not something that Microsoft has created, that's just how things work. Welcome to the real world.

Actually I get patches minutes after they are released, way faster than Windows, and I'm less exposed to security issues, all while having manual control over what is installed.

[Elim Garak]

The problems with Windows 10 are the following:

1. Telemetry can't be turned off. It still sends a lot of data even on the lowest settings.

2. We can't verify what data exactly is being sent, if it's anonymized, or anything specific whatsoever.

3. Windows 10 installing bloatware (Candy Crush) without asking the user, reinstalling it if uninstalled by the user and adding firewall rules for the bloatware. This creates a few issues, including, but not limited to:
-clogging the system with unwanted software
-installing 3rd party code on the users without asking, which is creating a security problem as the code of the app may be of lower quality than the core Windows itself
-lack of transparency of what the 3rd party app may be doing

4. Windows 10 installing updates in cumulative patches, with no options to stop the updates, no option to choose what updates you want (maybe you want only security updates), and no transparency about what exactly is in the updates.

Microsoft reserves the right to run any code they want on your machine at any time, without asking and without telling you what it is. This has proven to reset user settings, which again creates a security risk. This also means that any of the above points (1-3) could get worse at any time, or more points may appear. You are entirely dependent on Microsoft for the usage of your PC and they can do anything they want with it at any time without any permission from you.

You are trying to tell us that you have no clue on how to block traffic between your PC and Microsoft telemetry/update services?

[rda]

Actually I get patches minutes after they are released, way faster than Windows, and I'm less exposed to security issues, all while having manual control over what is installed.

And what about the data that gets exchanged when you get these patches? Are you not concerned about it? That's what you have been concerned about in Windows, so why not with your current system?

[haxartus]

You are trying to tell us that you have no clue on how to block traffic between your PC and Microsoft telemetry/update services?

I'm saying that if you think it can be done, you're clueless.

First of all, domain blocking is useless. The traffic is bypassing the hosts file and they have thousands of domains, so you can never block them all, even if you could. If you try you will end up breaking Skype and other useful services, and you won't achieve anything.

Second, all kinds of services send telemetry via common ports, and they use the Service Host processes. So, if you try to block ports, you will block legitimate services, and if you try to block the processes, you will also block half of the system, as quite a lot of stuff is running behind the Service Host processes.

So, if you want to really block everything, then you have to block the majority of your OS from the Internet, which kind of makes the benefits of Windows 10 non existent, and it's still not guaranteed that you blocked the telemetry.

And what about the data that gets exchanged when you get these patches? Are you not concerned about it?

No, because I can see what it is and verify that it's only what is necessary (version number, CPU architecture, etc).

[Elim Garak]

I'm saying that if you think it can be done, you're clueless.

First of all, domain blocking is useless. The traffic is bypassing the hosts file and they have thousands of domains, so you can never block them all, even if you could. If you try you will end up breaking Skype and other useful services, and you won't achieve anything.

Let me introduce you to a novel concept of a router. Also thumbs down for calling Skype a useful service.