"Blizzard Games Will Stop Working on Older Windows Versions"

[Deleted]

Supporting it is not an option, they have to support Vista in order to support 7/8/10 as they are all incrementations of the NT6 operating system.

The decision I am pointing out is stupid, is the decision to patch their software to refuse to install/run on a supported operating system just because it's old. And the reason I call it stupid is because their goal (save time/money by no longer having to deal with Vista specific issues) is a non-existent one because any issue they have to deal with which affects Vista also affects 7/8/10.



It is because it is a decision, and it is stupid.



Why should people be forced to buy a new OS or computer just because non-techies at Blizzard have chosen to make a stupid ill-informed decision?

The simple counter argument to all your ranting is dx11 which is only available on Windows 7 or later and contains api:s not available in dx9 and dx10 which means blizzard maintains multiple versions of the engine one for dx9 and one for dx11 and with the change the dx9 can slowly disappear and in the new expansion dx11 is the new lowend engine since every computer above 7 supports dx11.
The reason they say xp and vista vs dx9 and dx10 is because non techies know of xp and vista but not dx9 and dx10.
So i'm sure this is heavily a technical decision communicated in a form common to both technical and non technical folks.

[rda]

No, because I can see what it is and verify that it's only what is necessary (version number, CPU architecture, etc).

When was the last time you looked?

When was the last time you updated?

If the last time you updated you didn't look at what was being sent, how do you know what ended up being sent?

[Elim Garak]

When was the last time you looked?

Don't distract him he's grepping right now

[haxartus]

Let me introduce you to a novel concept of a router. Also thumbs down for calling Skype a useful service.

Thumbs up for not knowing that the TLS encrypted packets have the domain name also encrypted. And also for ignoring 90% of my post.

Honestly, this kind of looks like that the people arguing the most in the thread are not familiar with basic networking/IT concepts, which makes the whole thing a massive waste of time from my side.

When was the last time you looked

I do quite a lot of network monitoring with tcpdump and a few filters. Part of my job.

[Elim Garak]

Thumbs up for not knowing that the TLS encrypted packets have the domain name also encrypted. And also for ignoring 90% of my post.

How is it being routed to the destination? https://sorcery.magic.focus.pocus.it? I wonder why there are VPNs, if all you need is some encryption of the traffic and ISPs will be non-the-wiser, they'll never know that you are visiting pornhub.

Honestly, this kind of looks like that the people arguing the most in the thread are not familiar with basic networking/IT concepts, which makes the whole thing a massive waste of time from my side.

You are arguing the most here.

[rda]

I do quite a lot of network monitoring with tcpdump and a few filters.

OK, but do you really make sense of all data you see? What about compressed stack dumps, do you decipher them? What about event IDs, do you look them up? I doubt it.

I understand you are using Linux. If so, it is true that Linux has less telemetry in the OS / drivers than Windows. But if you ask the developers of these components, that's actually a big minus and is something they are working to correct. Look here, for example: https://clearlinux.org/features/telemetry, that's an Intel initiative (what, is Intel also evil?). I will tell you more, NVIDIA drivers, for example, have been having telemetry enabled on Windows and disabled on Linux precisely because Linux folks are always so up in arms about that. So, seeing that Linux folks are hell-bent on not having telemetry because they plain don't want it, period, and screw the driver makers who just want to figure out where exactly the drivers are failing and how to fix them, NVIDIA at one point decided not to fight and disabled telemetry specifically in their Linux branch. As a result, Linux folks were the recipients of fixes that resulted from all the good info sent by Windows folks. Now, this is obviously only a temporary arrangement and it cannot stand should Linux get more popular. If Linux ever gets to be a significant proportion of NVIDIA drivers, you will either have telemetry in those drivers enabled again or everyone will have lower quality drivers.

You are happily living in your bubble on Linux thinking that telemetry is bad, but the truth is, it is good, it helps solve hard problems which wouldn't otherwise be solved. And you are currently piggybacking on the results of folks allowing telemetry to be sent without paying for it. That's all.

[Mormolyce]

Well, Windows 7 was a revolution for computers with multiple network cards, for example. Yes, that's mostly for servers. Here's something for the client: DirectX 12. That's a revolution for GPUs. When enough games catch up, you will be able to tell the difference with a naked eye. Windows 7 - no DirectX 12 - half the framerate / lower graphics options than Windows 10 on the exact same system, things like that. Rendering in multiple threads simultaneously does help.

There are plenty of things like that in every release of Windows. People just tend to not notice the improvements when they are at their ideal - silently improving things with no fuss. But when you go to an older version of Windows, well, you notice.

But I used older versions of Windows and noticed nothing.

Direct X 12 didn't make any noticeable difference either, practically speaking.

[Eleccybubb]

But I used older versions of Windows and noticed nothing.

Direct X 12 didn't make any noticeable difference either, practically speaking.

Then use them if they are working fine for you.

But if you want to keep playing Blizzard games then be on 7 or later.

[haxartus]

How is it being routed to the destination?

They are using hard-coded domain names in Windows, so the whole thing doesn't even need DNS that you can intercept. You just see an IP and an encrypted packet.

As I said, the telemetry is built in such a way that is unstoppable without blocking everything in the OS.

But if you ask the developers of these components, that's actually a big minus and is something they are working to correct

Why are the Nvidia GeForce firmware/drivers proprietary ? I'm paying $1000 for a graphics card, but I can't see the code that is running it ?

At least AMD is investing some resources in the development of an open source driver. Nvidia has always been incredibly shitty with Linux.

[Elim Garak]

They are using hard-coded domain names in Windows, so the whole thing doesn't even need DNS that you can intercept. You just see an IP and an encrypted packet.

What more do you need to block the packets?

[haxartus]

What more do you need to block the packets?

You need to resolve the IP it to see if it's telemetry related. This introduces significant network delays, load on the router, the dns server and it's useless, since the domain name doesn't actually tell you anything most of the time. It's not like most of the telemetry domains start with telemetry.give_us_your_data.microsoft.com

As I said, the only way to do this is to plain block everything, which makes the OS useless.

[rda]

Why are the Nvidia GeForce firmware/drivers proprietary ? I'm paying $1000 for a graphics card, but I can't see the code that is running it ?

At least AMD is investing some resources in the development of an open source driver. Nvidia has always been incredibly shitty with Linux.

If you want to move to the "everything should be open source" topic, I am going to pass. This is a war I have no interest in participating. "Open source" *absolutely* does not equal "quality". In fact, in my experience, the correlation between these two things is mostly negative, with only a couple of exceptions. (Yes, I know what I am talking about. I could write a book about big projects with code that is absolute shit that are popular nonetheless because they are "open source" and so presumably "a million eyes" would have made them good... LOL, no.)

Restating my position on Windows 10 and encrypted traffic, it is simple:

1. Telemetry is good. It makes software much better than it would otherwise have been. Ask driver developers, for example.
2. Windows encrypts telemetry because if they didn't encrypt it, that would be a privacy breach. (Ironic, right?)
3. Telemetry is more or less everything that we are talking about with Windows 10 phoning home. Stupid things like Candy Crush reappearing after being uninstalled are stupid, but they are safe.

Now, you can decide that no, you don't want telemetry and Windows 10 is evil in doing it and not allowing you to take a look. That's your choice. But I don't think it would be a very rational one. Wait until they allow you to take a look at your data then. This might happen.

[haxartus]

If you want to move to the "everything should be open source" topic, I am going to pass.

I'm arguing that if I'm paying for something, I should be getting the full product, including the source code.

[rda]

I'm arguing that if I'm paying for something, I should be getting the full product, including the source code.

OK, that's unicorn-land then, I am not proceeding.

(No, you shouldn't be getting the source code. If you think you should, fine, good, au revoir, etc.)

[Ukon]

Well, if someone still uses XP or Vista, it's about time they changed OS.

[haxartus]

OK, that's unicorn-land then, I am not proceeding.

(No, you shouldn't be getting the source code. If you think you should, fine, good, au revoir, etc.)

Currently if you buy something, you don’t even own it. You are “licensed to use it”, but only in the way the manufacturer decided it’s appropriate.

How did we get to this point ? We got to this point because the consumers are willing to ignore all kinds of violations, only so they can be given access to the latest gadget and click on shiny stuff that they don't even need. Windows 10 is part of this trend in a big way.

Yes, you should be getting the source code. Someone who is paying for a product should have the right to know exactly what this product does, and they should have the right to modify it if they want.
The only reason this is not the case is because 99.999% of the population of the planet is computer illiterate and doesn't even know what source code is.

[Ukon]

I'm arguing that if I'm paying for something, I should be getting the full product, including the source code.

And I'm arguing that you have unrealistic expectations.
By keeping the support for older operating systems, they are adding additional resources to making sure it works correctly on those operating systems. Thus wasting time and resources on something that no longer wish to support. It's a security risk using those operating systems, thus a risk for blizzards customers to use their account on those computers.

[Tackhisis]

They are using hard-coded domain names in Windows

Hard-coded domain names need the resolution too.

Thumbs up for not knowing that the TLS encrypted packets have the domain name also encrypted.

TLS is working over TCP/IP, so the establishing connection and name resolution is done by the underlying, unencrypted connection.

Again, an astounishing technical illiteracy typical for a Linux user.

[rda]

Someone who is paying for a product should have the right to know exactly what this product does, and they should have the right to modify it if they want.

Apply that to your car sometimes. Or to an airplane ticket. Or, hell, to a chair you are currently sitting in. (What, you have a right to know what that plastic is!!1 And what was the technology process in composing it! All the way to the oil drill with all the details including the parameters of each participating component, where they came from and how they were combined! And by whom! Maybe some parts of the process were performed by someone with a history of drinking, right? That could have affected the results, right? You have the right to know!! And the instructions have to be complete enough so that you can replicate the entire process, changing a couple of things! Microsoft, do this now!!!)

The only reason we are having this stupid talk is that in the 90s a bunch of hippies decided to take a political stand regarding what was modern at that time: computers and software.

[Tackhisis]

Actually I get patches minutes after they are released, way faster than Windows, and I'm less exposed to security issues, all while having manual control over what is installed.

No, you don't. Patches are not applied until you reboot the system. You will automatically install whatever the maintainer puts into the security repository, without any control over it.

I should be getting the full product, including the source code.

Why do you need the source code? You are unqualified even to read it, leave aside changing or fixing it.

Linux is open-source, but it has security vulnerabilities found there every month, with most of them being in for years or even decades.