No-Flying on Argus - Personally i'm relieved.

[cuafpr]

as i've said b4 its stupid and shows lack of creativity and innovation from blizzard which is truly sad... if not for being a sub since release with no breaks the lack of flying and world scaling would send me packing.

[Hiricine]

Flying is just fine, the gates just need to make sense. If you've explored everything and done all the quests, then flying really doesn't take much away.

Unless they find a way to make running on the ground compelling gameplay, its really pointless not to have another pathfinder achievement.

[darklogrus]

I agree, im glad they killed off flying, now maybe they could kill off Mythic+ cause its ruining my experience...

[Heeresman]

im glad they killed off flying

What?

???????????

[Grenzstein]

I like no flying because i get to use lots of mounts i wouldn't otherwise use
Specially my goat!

[Mormolyce]

I'll never understand why this is such a fucking flashpoint.

New outdoors zones, particularly max level ones, almost never have flying enabled when they are released. I think Cataclysm was the only expansion that allowed flying in outdoors zones while the content was relevant to anyone, and Cataclysm had bugger all outdoor content anyway.

Technically you could've had flying in Outland when you hit max level as well, if you had a fuck ton of gold (for the time). That was gated on something essentially arbitrary.

In any case it's such an unimportant thing I have no idea why so many people give such a massive shit over it.

[Deleted]

being flightless is fine, as long as the terrain is not designed like a game designer brought there 5 year mentally disabled kid to work and took the design of the landscape, and pathways from the spaghetti that was thrown against the wall at dinner time.

[Aquinan]

Yeah so nostaligic waiting for the death timer to expire or the ressurection sickness to fade

Time to transfer to a pve realm i guess.

It settled down on m realm after a week or so, as people got bored with it.

[SirCowdog]

Naturally since you have an agenda you've chosen the later.

My....agenda? Do tell, good chicken.

Pathfinder model would be fine if it could be completed whenever an expansion is actually launched, rather than having it artificially stretched out to a later date by making it a multi-part achievement stretched out over the course of months.

Maybe. The problem is that it doesn't really matter when the unlock flying in an expansion if the content doesn't actually use it. It equally doesn't matter if you're required to completely exhaust all the content before actually getting access to flight(leaving nothing relevant to use flying on).

If you actually believe that people in business would hurt their own income ON PURPOSE just to spite a playerbase you are beyond delusional.

I don't believe that No-Flying is being done to "spite the playerbase". I think it's probably being done because Hazzicostas(or some other leader on the WoW team) legitimately dislikes flying and is able to get away with marginalizing it.

As for hurting their own income: Lets not forget that Blizzard is FULLY capable of wiping entire games that are years into their development because they think it's justified(Starcraft Ghost, Warcraft Adventures, Titan). Taking a risk like No-Flying easily falls within that range. I don't doubt for a moment that it could be internally justified and rationalized to the Blizzard leadership.

Then why did Cata and MoP which both had flying designed in mind from the get go have sub crushes too?

You're attempting to exaggerate for effect. Or aren't looking at the facts. Yes, subs steadily declined over the entire course of Cata and MoP. But the loss in subs was nowhere near what was seen during WoD. WoD had unprecedented levels of sub losses. So much that Blizzard was forced to stop reporting in order to save face. I don't believe that the lack of flying was solely responsible for that drop in subs, but it DID contribute since it was part of the overall weak design of the open world.

And lets also keep in mind that Blizzard stopped reporting subs before flight was returned. So we don't actually know the positive effects of returning it to players might have had. I REALLY wish we had those numbers. But I suspect that the damage was already done, and grudgingly giving back flight behind a wall of achievements at the end of the expansion would have heavily mitigated any benefit. The same can be said of Legion, where once again the value of flight is being sabotaged.

Also: If Ion was deliberately sabotaging the game on purpose and losing the company millions, don't you think he would of gotten FIRED for that? Didn't happen though...wonder why... (hint, they weren't sabotaging the game on purpose)

No, because you're mistaking what's good for the game with what's good for Blizzard's profits. Those two things are not the same, and as I've said multiple times already: From a business point of view, pathfinder is an amazing system.

@SirCowdog can I ask legitimately, whats the point in coming to a WoW fansite to bash the game, the developers of said game, and its fans? If all you do is come on these boards to call fans of the game "fanbois" which is a derogatory insult, why even post? why not move on with your life and forget about WoW and its players and its game designers?

Again, legitimate question.

It's not a legitimate question at all, because it's so heavily leading, and based on some false assumptions. So let me clarify:

I'm not "bashing the game". I'm being heavily critical of the parts of the game I think are being handled poorly, instead of just rolling over and handing Blizzard money without thinking. Don't mistake the simple fact that I don't agree with your point of view as being the same thing as taking a malevolent or spiteful view of the greater whole. I absolutely love what's possible with the M+ system and world scaling. I think the artifact system for end-game progression is decently good(although it should be account wide like Paragon levels in D3). And raiding is as good as it's ever been.

I also didn't insult all fans of the game. I'M a fan of the game and want to see it improve. There's your explanation for why I'm still here. But when I said "Good luck on getting any Blizz fanboi to recognize that," I was referring to people who are literal fanatics of Blizzard. The kind of people who don't ever question anything Blizzard does. Who will outright ignore facts that don't praise or support Blizzard. What would YOU call those kinds of people? And make no mistake, those kinds of people DO exist.

[Cyi]

While I'm generally not one to defend Jaylock, where is it NOT implied that this is their opinion? How is Jaylock pressing them on others?

On topic, I enjoy flying as a convenience when doing old content. The Broken Shore was a nightmare to get around, but flying trivialized it. As they've clearly thought through the matter of navigating Argus, I'm also glad that flying will not be a part of it.

I don't have any source, but most sub-zones introduced without flying tend to remain without flying.

What you quoted was directed at another poster, not Jay.

[Deleted]

I agree Jay. Be nice to be on the ground again for a change exploring Argus in all it's glory.

What glory is there in a totally screwed up planet? I expect to get Broken Shore on steroids. And this was not that much fun without flying. Even with flying it's not that much fun, but the experience is at least bearable.

- - - Updated - - -

Flying is just fine, the gates just need to make sense. If you've explored everything and done all the quests, then flying really doesn't take much away.

Unless they find a way to make running on the ground compelling gameplay, its really pointless not to have another pathfinder achievement.

Also this.

- - - Updated - - -

being flightless is fine, as long as the terrain is not designed like a game designer brought there 5 year mentally disabled kid to work and took the design of the landscape, and pathways from the spaghetti that was thrown against the wall at dinner time.

And this is also very true.

I was very much annoyed about TI back in MoP because it had exactly 1 way of getting to the higher elevated area on the island (beside the sea gull taxi, which is more of a puzzle than a method of getting around the place). But then came WoD and Legion, and I would be happy to get back to the annoyance level of TI again, because terrain design is getting worse with each expansion.

[Segus1992]

Actually - a new planet would have been a perfect opportunity to put in place a 'flying with cost' mechanic relating to Argus (in addition to the other methods of getting around).

Heavier gravity, maybe things can't fly as well etc ? After a few minutes, they run out of steam and have to recharge etc.

Time to end the all on or all off and find a mechanism that encourages game play but still lets you fly around a bit.

Opportunity lost.

Blizzard doesn't like flying, they only introduce it into the game now because they pretty much have to.

[Zenfoldor]

Once the content stops being fresh and becomes a grind, flying should be added. Not a second before. I love the idea of having to achieve flying.

[Deleted]

Once the content stops being fresh and becomes a grind, flying should be added. Not a second before. I love the idea of having to achieve flying.

It would be a good and consistent thing if you would actually get flying right after completing requirements relevant for the zone. Not months later, in addition to requirements from a different zone.

Just like back in TBC, where not everybody could afford flying right away - or at least, not the fast flying skill - and thus had to earn flying by earning gold. As soon as you cashed in your gold, you got flying. I expect the same mechanic with achievements, not a digusting delay just because Blizzard wants us to spend more time with outdoor content by wasting time with travel, instead of actually doing quests or farming materials. Travel at max level, when you already have been somewhere and done your quests, is just a means to an end, not content!

[Deleted]

Sorry, i still can't believe that someone wuold quit a game they like for a single feature. I simply can't. And not something radical like "You will never be able to fly and use flightpats or heartstones".

Sorry i don't believe you. I think that you have some other issue with the game, otherwise, again, i don't believe that not being able to fly (for some months) can make someone quit the game (at least permanently).

It's like, don't know, "I will quit forever The Witcher 3 because i can't use horse". Who cares? You can still run and use waypoints, really going on horse is a gamebreaking mechanincs?

And mind that i LOVE flying, it's very very useful and makes some tedious things faster. But i like WoW more as a game and i gladly play grounded.

[Heldamon]

Every new territory isn't safe for flying. After you've conquered it then you can fly. Problem solved.

[SirCowdog]

Sorry, i still can't believe that someone wuold quit a game they like for a single feature. I simply can't. And not something radical like "You will never be able to fly and use flightpats or heartstones".

Sorry i don't believe you. I think that you have some other issue with the game, otherwise, again, i don't believe that not being able to fly (for some months) can make someone quit the game (at least permanently).

It's like, don't know, "I will quit forever The Witcher 3 because i can't use horse". Who cares? You can still run and use waypoints, really going on horse is a gamebreaking mechanincs?

And mind that i LOVE flying, it's very very useful and makes some tedious things faster. But i like WoW more as a game and i gladly play grounded.

You're oversimplifying it, which is why you can't believe the scenario.

People didn't quit solely because of No-Flying. They quit because Blizzard told everyone that No-Flying would allow them to make a better WoW, then delivered the train-wreck of WoD. They quit because they got sick of being lied to about how Blizzard wanted flight to feel like a reward, then had flight be available for less time than it took to unlock it in Legion. They're tired of the ground-only terrain being made as if it "took the design of the landscape, and pathways from the spaghetti that was thrown against the wall at dinner time."(as @Sigma so accurately described)

It's not just no-flying. It's the entire approach that Blizzard has taken, and the way they completely and absolutely mishandled the situation.

[Deleted]

You're oversimplifying it, which is why you can't believe the scenario.

People didn't quit solely because of No-Flying. They quit because Blizzard told everyone that No-Flying would allow them to make a better WoW, then delivered the train-wreck of WoD. They quit because they got sick of being lied to about how Blizzard wanted flight to feel like a reward, then had flight be available for less time than it took to unlock it in Legion.

It's not just no-flying. It's the entire approach that Blizzard has taken, and the way they completely and absolutely mishandled the situation.

O cmon who cares about a company "attitude" it's not like they are my mother or my wife. They do everything for money, even a rock knows that. I look at final product, if i like it i play it if i don't like i don't buy it. Simple as that. I don't care if, before doing X, they said Y or Z. Anyway, someone will be happy and others not.

And again, if i like the game, who cares if the developers are assholes or whatever. What matters is the final product (unless the company is enslaving children to edit code, but i don't think it's the case XD).

[Dhrizzle]

I don't believe that No-Flying is being done to "spite the playerbase". I think it's probably being done because Hazzicostas(or some other leader on the WoW team) legitimately dislikes flying and is able to get away with marginalizing it.

In other words at least one (probably more) of the devs has issues with the way flight affects gameplay and the mechanic has been marginalised to improve WoW, how is that a bad thing?

As for hurting their own income: Lets not forget that Blizzard is FULLY capable of wiping entire games that are years into their development because they think it's justified(Starcraft Ghost, Warcraft Adventures, Titan). Taking a risk like No-Flying easily falls within that range. I don't doubt for a moment that it could be internally justified and rationalized to the Blizzard leadership.

So no-flight is an example of Blizz potentially position losing profits to deliver what they consider a better gaming experience? Not really seeing that as a negative.

You're attempting to exaggerate for effect. Or aren't looking at the facts. Yes, subs steadily declined over the entire course of Cata and MoP. But the loss in subs was nowhere near what was seen during WoD. WoD had unprecedented levels of sub losses. So much that Blizzard was forced to stop reporting in order to save face.

Did you know that WoD also saw an unprecedented jump in subs at the start? In fact if you eliminate the jumps at the start of expansions you'll see that WoD's average rate of sub-losses is about the same as MoP's and Cara's.

I don't believe that the lack of flying was solely responsible for that drop in subs, but it DID contribute since it was part of the overall weak design of the open world

Or maybe the open world design (including no-flight) was improved enough that it managed to keep players subbed despite their being a general lack of meaningfully rewarding content, and with flight enabled from the start the losses would have been greater.

No, because you're mistaking what's good for the game with what's good for Blizzard's profits. Those two things are not the same, and as I've said multiple times already: From a business point of view, pathfinder is an amazing system.

You keep saying that Pathfinder is an amazing business decision but you've yet to explain why, and this opinion seems to clash with your earlier ideas about it being a risk and responsible for loss of subs.

Also you seem to be implying that it isn't better for the game, you should realise that's just your opinion. From my perspective no-flight has lead to some of the best world content they've produced and Pathfinder is a nice reward which also saves me gold for alt flying.

[Deleted]

[SNIP] And again, if i like the game, who cares if the developers are assholes or whatever. What matters is the final product (unless the company is enslaving children to edit code, but i don't think it's the case XD).

They could be abusing some monkeys regarding various flaws...

And while I did not quit the game over no-flying, because of years of investment in my characters and my interest for story and lore development, and a few RL friends who have accounts her (though most of them are inactive now, because the game is not in it's best form regarding the amount of daily chores in comparison to somehow exciting new content) - I am 100% sure that the game would be better without all restrictions on flying. I want the TBC model back. I would gladly pay 10K gold per character for flying instead of the usual 5K, and I currently already have 13 characters at max level already, and about 18 or even more to come.

The main flaw in restricting flying because it makes the open world "easier" is this: It's not flying, its gear. When item levels increase as insanely as they do in the latest bunch of expansions (with Legion being the most extreme), it's no wonder that content gets trivialised. But people always blame flying, not their gear. Also, people should just stop expecting open world content to be challenging. This is what solo scenarios, dungeons and raids are for. Open world can have its challenges in form of rare elites, elite patrols, world bosses - but it's still the least common denominator for all players out there - from people who are still leveling, to people who are fresh at max level, to people with high end dungeon/raid/PvP gear. You cannot design challenging content for the latter group without automatically excluding everyone else.

It's a fundamental flaw of logic, and flying has nothing to do with the problem.