Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Icedcoffeee]

It has become really easy to get a 99%ile log as frost DK. So i assume it is a skill issue where the average skill of frost DKs is lower. Thats why pure %ile comoarison wont work.
I mean, i could change from 99%ile frost to 90%ile unholy just because unholy DKs are better geared and higher skill level atm.

Its highly unlikely the disparity can be explained just by "skill." For one, bad players switch to the FOTM spec too, which would dilute Unholy and concentrate Frost. (Or at least level out any change.) For another, not every good Frost player is going to switch to Unholy, meaning high parses (95%+) cannot be said to deviate too dramatically in skill. Or just look at the pure sims, (aka perfect execution) where from 920 to 940 unholy gains an extra 100k dps on Frost, single target.

[Deleted]

Except that UH can go through rings too... I progressed Elisande as unholy and it works super fine. Even better than frost actually, because the AMS last 10sec, allowing UH to stay in the rings much longer and safer.
The rings damage is irrelevant, you are immune to them if you have AMS up regardless of the size of your AMS shield (you could go through rings with an AMS shielding you for only 10k damage). The only problem with having a small AMS is if it gets removed by other sources of damage (there is a lot of passive damage on Elisande).

The way Blizard coded the rings is strange, because it should not be like this. But hey that's how it works.

Hm ok, i stand corrected then. I asked our UH if he could do it and he denied it :S

But agreed. Being immune to rings with AMS was strange.

[Nemesquish]

It has become really easy to get a 99%ile log as frost DK. So i assume it is a skill issue where the average skill of frost DKs is lower. Thats why pure %ile comoarison wont work.
I mean, i could change from 99%ile frost to 90%ile unholy just because unholy DKs are better geared and higher skill level atm.

Not sure if you're aware of how % works. But getting a 99% of the larger number is much easier than getting 99% of the smaller.

Sure getting top 10 may be harder, but if 3x as many people are playing Unholy, thats 3x as many spots for your "99%" stat.

Just as many bad players switched to Unholy as stay Frost.

[Deleted]

Simple Answer: Unholy scales a lot better in ToS.
The difference will grow with progression.

[Dalamian]

Simple Answer: Unholy scales a lot better in ToS.
The difference will grow with progression.

Unholy also underwent quite a few changes in 7.2.5 to contribute to its current iteration

[RuneDK]

another week and nothing for us(yes this week is pretty much pvp balancing).....but as a whole this tier is the worst balance they've had all expansion....the outliers on the top are a bit too good...and they haven't even been nerfed......I wonder if they're waiting for Method/Exorsus to kill KJ then roll in actual hotfixes.

[Icedcoffeee]

I wonder if they're waiting for Method/Exorsus to kill KJ then roll in actual hotfixes.

I hadn't thought of this: definitely seems like a possibility.

[Paperbagjr]

This is actually not true. Learn statistics before you come on hear and mislead people with false information. I suggest you look at this page on Wikipedia and learn a little bit on the subject you claim to know. Look up normal distributions on google for me.

Basically, the more samples that are taken, the more condensed the data becomes around the mean value. This also means that the outliers (data that are more than 2.5 standard deviations from the mean) become less common when compared to the total number of parses.

There is no way to actually tell whether one is easier to achieve than the other, because we also have to take into account the changing variable of time. Ontop of this we also have to compare the percentage of people parsing in the 90th percentile, to the total number of people parsing. You may have a parse that was a 95% two weeks ago, but not it holds up at a 85%. See how as we add more samples to the data, your parse will shift towards the median? This is because of outside affects, such as gear upgrades and people becoming more comfortable with the fight.

If we start talking about actual numbers, to make sense of all of this. For my fight against normal Sisters of the moon I parsed a 99% at 966,588 dps on the Wednesday that the raid released. Looking at other logs from the first week, later in the week, after more people have parsed, the person that now stands 1 rank below me parsed on the sunday of the raids release. He did 966,492 dps, but only parsed a 95%. So this is not true. Just because more people are parsing doesnt mean that it is easier to parse higher. Most of the time it means just the opposite. There are a lot more people that are pushing their dps to the max, People pushing for server first, and people that min/max every aspect of a fight, and to get a 99% you have to keep up with those people.

Also, I would take into account that most of the min/maxing player will be switching to unholy, as it beats out frost in every fight in the Tomb of Sargeras, so you will be seeing less of these people sticking to the spec. I expect this to be another factor in why it will be easier to parse as a Frost DK as opposed to an Unholy dk.

[Halliax]

Returning to the game after a vacation(3 months)...how did we fall so much?! Damm, shouldve enjoyed more of our DPS on NH.
A little off, but for a guy whose best legendaries are the ring+head, should I trade my 4pt19 for the t20(with minimal ilvl gain), it looked like I lost some DPS when started to use 2t19+2t20(current 918 while using 4t19 and 920 with 2t19+2t20).

[Piz813]

I have to say no to the original topic.
Did some heroic pugs and a mythic group that killed goroth and hajartan with a frost DK. I was CS UH. All of them held their own with equally the same gear roughly. I could suck of course but it was nice to see them doing good. On M Harajatr RW was his top damage dealer and he smoked me by a good amount.

In short frost is just fine in ToS

[Maxweii]

I have to say no to the original topic.
Did some heroic pugs and a mythic group that killed goroth and hajartan with a frost DK. I was CS UH. All of them held their own with equally the same gear roughly. I could suck of course but it was nice to see them doing good. On M Harajatr RW was his top damage dealer and he smoked me by a good amount.

In short frost is just fine in ToS

Not to say that they aren't fine, but this is not an example of why they would be when skill, legendaries, lag, procs, ect all come into play in a single fight encounter like that.

[Hoeth]

Frost does seem to be be doing just fine on Inquisition, Harjatan, heroic Mistress and Host. The others all have BoS breaking mechanics that can screw you over even if well planned. There will be a few decent parses of course, but those will be the those that got lucky with mechanic RNG and didn't have to break uptime.

[RuneDK]

Frost does seem to be be doing just fine on Inquisition, Harjatan, heroic Mistress and Host. The others all have BoS breaking mechanics that can screw you over even if well planned. There will be a few decent parses of course, but those will be the those that got lucky with mechanic RNG and didn't have to break uptime.

Maiden is fine as well, you just cant use bos on pull. The only fight you really can't use BoS on is Avatar and through data people are putting together we could just do MG for that as it's actually not too far behind bos. Every other fight has it's windows.

[Piz813]

Not to say that they aren't fine, but this is not an example of why they would be when skill, legendaries, lag, procs, ect all come into play in a single fight encounter like that.

True luck and oranges played a role in sure. Even H maiden this frost DK did great.
My point I tried making was every other post here for the last few weeks are people crying frost is dead and the sky is falling and bla bla bla. I used my eyes and real life experience of pugging a lot,since I'm a filthy casual now, and saw first hand that frost is just fine.

[Hctaz]

True luck and oranges played a role in sure. Even H maiden this frost DK did great.
My point I tried making was every other post here for the last few weeks are people crying frost is dead and the sky is falling and bla bla bla. I used my eyes and real life experience of pugging a lot,since I'm a filthy casual now, and saw first hand that frost is just fine.

I guess it probably is the for majority of the playerbase, but Frost is definitely not going to hold up to unholy when you're at 930 item level progressing on Mythic Mistress.

[Piz813]

I guess it probably is the for majority of the playerbase, but Frost is definitely not going to hold up to unholy when you're at 930 item level progressing on Mythic Mistress.

True. It will drop off later in mythic. I just did. H Avatar pug kill and there was a MG player..... wow. Bad. It was abysmal. He hovered just above the tanks after his initial 800k burst during lust. There was another UH guy with the shoulders and he was ahead of me the whole time but his cold heart damage wasn't there which I didn't understand. My CH was 10 mill ahead.
So it's all in the player even with God tier oranges.

And don't show up specd into obliteration on Heroic avatar LOL

[Hctaz]

True. It will drop off later in mythic. I just did. H Avatar pug kill and there was a MG player..... wow. Bad. It was abysmal. He hovered just above the tanks after his initial 800k burst during lust. There was another UH guy with the shoulders and he was ahead of me the whole time but his cold heart damage wasn't there which I didn't understand. My CH was 10 mill ahead.
So it's all in the player even with God tier oranges.

And don't show up specd into obliteration on Heroic avatar LOL

Yeah I mean it really depends. That's the problem with people and saying that a spec isn't dead based on their guild. You could be a 75 percentile player playing in a guild with a bunch of 40% players. If you raided with your level then you'd realize that your spec isn't actually number 1 but really low xD

When I first swapped to Unholy, I was doing the same or better dps having literally not played the spec since EN.

[Deleted]

True. It will drop off later in mythic. I just did. H Avatar pug kill and there was a MG player..... wow. Bad. It was abysmal. He hovered just above the tanks after his initial 800k burst during lust. There was another UH guy with the shoulders and he was ahead of me the whole time but his cold heart damage wasn't there which I didn't understand. My CH was 10 mill ahead.
So it's all in the player even with God tier oranges.

And don't show up specd into obliteration on Heroic avatar LOL

I am sure the MG player was just bad.

I played Enhance in EN and we had 2 enhance trials. I was constantly topping the metres, 5 to 20% ahead of most players. The other enhance was constantly bottom, i was always 30 to 50% ahead. Based on that data, some people could have said "enhance is op" or "enhance sucks".

If a top player would play MG he would be easily beating most unholy and BOS DKs. Just like i am constantly beating the 3 unholy dks in my twink run. And i am ilvl 922, they are about ilvl 920 to 925.

But i am constantly delivering 97 to 99%iles while they are mostly 60 to 85%. I bet frost DK isnt as bad as its perception.

And in NH i was mostly 80 to 90%iles, now i am 95-99% constantly. I bet the average skill simply decreased for frost dks with top players switching to unholy. Thats why good frost DKs still perform solid, but warctaftlogs shows them at the bottom.

[hellhamster]

This is why sites like warcraftlogs exist guys. Any other evidence of frosts performance is anecdotal.

[Deleted]

This is why sites like warcraftlogs exist guys. Any other evidence of frosts performance is anecdotal.

Warcraftlogs data needs to be taken careful. A 2% buff can result in a 10% buff in log data. Even a nerf to unholy can result in a massive increase for frost DKs.

Specs can simply look bad because of all top players switcched to a 2% stronger spec, resulting in a 10% gap in warcraftlogs.