Is *SPOILER* really the Legion endboss?!

[Venziir]

Which contradicts what we were told already. Fucking blizzard retcons its lore before it's even fully released.

It contradicts nothing whatsoever. We were never, ever told that we'd fight Sargeras, that was an assumption. We were never ever told, that Argus did not have a world soul, we were told that Draenor DID NOT have a world soul, and told, that worlds without souls are rare, so rare that Aggramar himself went to explore it and by that logic, Argus should have a world soul. Hell, Kil'jaeden's words in the 7.2 trailer makes much more sense now that we, the players, know that Argus has a soul too.

[Deleted]

I still believe we're going to get 7.4 I have a feeling that Khadgar is being set up for the last boss.

[Karon]

It contradicts nothing whatsoever. We were never, ever told that we'd fight Sargeras, that was an assumption. We were never ever told, that Argus did not have a world soul, we were told that Draenor DID NOT have a world soul, and told, that worlds without souls are rare, so rare that Aggramar himself went to explore it and by that logic, Argus should have a world soul. Hell, Kil'jaeden's words in the 7.2 trailer makes much more sense now that we, the players, know that Argus has a soul too.

What are you on about? I never claimed any of those things. Blizzard claimed that we already knew the endboss of the expansion, but he doesn't exist in current lore outside the PTR.

[Venziir]

What are you on about? I never claimed any of those things. Blizzard claimed that we already knew the endboss of the expansion, but he doesn't exist in current lore outside the PTR.

They never claimed that. Never. Besides, even *if* they did, they were right; we knew about Argus, but as a planet obviously. But even according to that, knowing that a planet was going to be the end boss, should still make it obvious that the planet had a soul, thus the soul would be the end-boss.

[Deleted]

I imagine it to be sargeras,but in like scenario type holythrallmythic difficulty, im which we de-exorcist it into illidan and bondage him to a seat

[Aucald]

What are you on about? I never claimed any of those things. Blizzard claimed that we already knew the endboss of the expansion, but he doesn't exist in current lore outside the PTR.

They *implied* that, but never outright said it. The end-boss is Argus itself (e.g. the Titan within Argus), but I think the intention was to slyly misdirect people into thinking it was a given person such as Velen, Kil'jaeden, Sargeras, or anyone else prominent in Legion or before. It's not a contradiction of the lore as much as it was a purposeful feint and misdirection - the developers' attempt to have their cake and eat it as well.

[Phantombeard]

just like last year's blizzcon when they announced tier 20 which would be designed based off tier 6. Which ends up being just tier 6.

That is true about the LFR, Normal and Heroic versions but, HOLY shit have you looked at the mythic. They are made to resemble T6 but they are so much more. Truly one of the games best sets. Mythic version only though.

[Deleted]

They *implied* that, but never outright said it. The end-boss is Argus itself (e.g. the Titan within Argus), but I think the intention was to slyly misdirect people into thinking it was a given person such as Velen, Kil'jaeden, Sargeras, or anyone else prominent in Legion or before. It's not a contradiction of the lore as much as it was a purposeful feint and misdirection - the developers' attempt to have their cake and eat it as well.

Not only that, but i guess the developer wanted to assure that last boss (or raid) would be on something we already know, aka The Burning Legion. Let's not forget that a lot of people didn't like the fact that in WoD, even if the theme was 90% Iron horde, the last patch and raid was focused on something different.

So i don't see any contracdition in what they said. We already know the expansion last boss, the burning legion itself.

[Aucald]

Not only that, but i guess the developer wanted to assure that last boss (or raid) would be on something we already know, aka The Burning Legion. Let's not forget that a lot of people didn't like the fact that in WoD, even if the theme was 90% Iron horde, the last patch and raid was focused on something different.

So i don't see any contracdition in what they said. We already know the expansion last boss, the burning legion itself.

WoD was kind of a different scenario altogether. One of the developers said outright that the final boss of WoD would be Grom Hellscream himself, presumably at the head of the Iron Horde - but not only was it not Grom he was actually on our side in a temporary alliance when we fought the actual final boss in Hellfire Citadel. I'm of the assumption that the development of WoD took a pronounced body-swerve midway through its life - likely due to a variety of reasons both internal and external. Legion was a different story in that they played the cards a bit closer to the proverbial vest - not outright saying who the final boss would be and letting the players figure it out on their own, for better or for worse.

[Valysar]

Where is Me'dan ?

[Grenzstein]

Where is Me'dan ?

In Limbo.
Blizzard doesn't want to add him to the game and at the same time they don't kill him or anything like that.

[Grimo]

Then go ahead and explain Argus the Unmaker to me using In-Game sources (7.0 to 7.2.5 only).

Oh wait, you can't.

Also, what the heck is a texture of the context?

Um, yeah no I can't - actually, no one can because 7.3 IS IN ALPHA!!!!!!!!!!! That info is not in the game yet - in fact, there is a placehold for a cinematic which seems to explain exactly that.
http://ptr.wowhead.com/quest=47890/visions-of-torment

Straight after this, Magni says:

Azeroth was right in sendin' us here, <name>. We have to stop whatever it is Sargeras is plannin', or we may not have a home left to save when this is all over.

So it looks like exactly what you are whining about not being explained will be explained in this cutscene.




So, again, you do not need to read the books to understand the game. Period. Not only that, but neither Chronicle 1 or 2 address Argus' world soul at all. This is a revelation wholly contained in 7.3.

What I mean by texture of the context is the little extra details that add a little more depth or meaning to what you do. For instance, you don't have to understand Illidan's tragic backstory to play through the context of the demon hunter intro at all - but it sure adds texture to the whole story if you are in the know. Not knowing Illidan's rise from rejected druid to mage won't result in players like you running around screaming I HAVE NO CONTEXT AND UNDERSTAND NOTHING WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

[FriendOrTraitor]

There is some evidence already in the game that indicates that A) a titan can be built and B) that Sargeras and the Burning Legion are about to unleash some kind of super weapon.

For the former, refer back to MoP. It is explicitly stated that we must "...rebuild the final titan." We can therefore assume that such beings can be constructed.

As for how we know Sargeras and the Burning Legion are about to create something new? Turalyon warns us that the Burning Legion is about to create/do something that will ensure they win the war. I know that Karon added the stipulation that only things from 7.2.5 back could be used for context, but one of the first data-mined creatures was a "Titan Builder" or something to that effect.

[Jarg]

unlike the other pantheon members he still has his full powered planet form and didnt get captured and tortured for the last 30k years?

Isnt his body is damaged/destroyed in WotA? I'm pretty sure Sargeras is in the same form as the other titans (only the soul, but sargeras isnt splintered like the rest)
It would answer all those question why he didnt come for Azeroth/interfered phisically with the world. I just cant imagine an interplenetary being cannot change his size to enter a portal or anything else.

- - - Updated - - -

There is some evidence already in the game that indicates that A) a titan can be built and B) that Sargeras and the Burning Legion are about to unleash some kind of super weapon.

For the former, refer back to MoP. It is explicitly stated that we must "...rebuild the final titan." We can therefore assume that such beings can be constructed.

As for how we know Sargeras and the Burning Legion are about to create something new? Turalyon warns us that the Burning Legion is about to create/do something that will ensure they win the war. I know that Karon added the stipulation that only things from 7.2.5 back could be used for context, but one of the first data-mined creatures was a "Titan Builder" or something to that effect.

In some other thread i was thinking the same about all these retcon stuff: we have no reason to not beleive sargeras found a way to reproduce with some fel manipulation (therefore argus would be just the cradle of the fel-titan soul, it wouldnt contradict with anything said before). As it would be much weaker then a a naturally evolved titan (or maybe he isnt totally evolved) would answer how can we fight with him. We clearly dont know enough information on this matter yet.

[Peroxidex]

Well don't you think this is the same deal?

Last Blizzcon, months after legion release and while they must have been working on 7.1 and 7.2 already, they told us they scrapped Thal'Dranath for a 'cooler' idea. This would have been our 7.3 which is now Argus.

Now tell me how you would fit the endgame villains and the lore that is happening in this 7.3 on Argus to a possible 7.3 Thal'Dranath? I personally don't see that happening without major changes.

Therefore it is clear this the Argus stuff was changed AFTER the expo hit and AFTER they started designing 7.1/7.2. So the 7.3 stuff we are now seeing isn't the same they had in mind when telling us the statements in my OP.

For me it is logical that they wanted to have a Thal'Dranath based KJ as last boss but changed they mind again and now we have this new lore (mess).

You have neat theories, but they're completely unfounded.

Considering Thal'Dranath was in the BETA, it was more likely planned for release and I don't recall any hints of it being end of expansion or 7.3 content. They announced it was scrapped June 16, 2016 during a Q&A interview, not at Blizzcon. By that logic though, should ogres have been the final boss of WoD since they scrapped those islands as well?

Broken Shore was what replaced Thal'Dranath. You can find proof of this in the five part audio drama that was released before Legion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_xFZ7b6tOk
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms...9831831453.pdf

"YOU RAISED AN ISLAND, THAL'DRANATH, FROM THE WATERS.—"
"The muffled, distant noise reached his ears an instant before a powerful shockwave rattled the air. His raven eyes snapped downward, toward the island of Thal'dranath, as the wind seemed to tremble around his wings. A dust cloud was rising above the Tomb of Sargeras."

Lastly, the 'In Defense of the Exodar' scenario was in-game during the BETA. Velen states to prepare the Exodar because they're going home. This leads me to believe that they had planned Argus being later content before they scrapped Thal'Dranath.

[My User Name]

You have neat theories, but they're completely unfounded.

Considering Thal'Dranath was in the BETA, it was more likely planned for release and I don't recall any hints of it being end of expansion or 7.3 content. They announced it was scrapped June 16, 2016 during a Q&A interview, not at Blizzcon. By that logic though, should ogres have been the final boss of WoD since they scrapped those islands as well?

Broken Shore was what replaced Thal'Dranath. You can find proof of this in the five part audio drama that was released before Legion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_xFZ7b6tOk
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms...9831831453.pdf

"YOU RAISED AN ISLAND, THAL'DRANATH, FROM THE WATERS.—"
"The muffled, distant noise reached his ears an instant before a powerful shockwave rattled the air. His raven eyes snapped downward, toward the island of Thal'dranath, as the wind seemed to tremble around his wings. A dust cloud was rising above the Tomb of Sargeras."

Lastly, the 'In Defense of the Exodar' scenario was in-game during the BETA. Velen states to prepare the Exodar because they're going home. This leads me to believe that they had planned Argus being later content before they scrapped Thal'Dranath.

Ahem.

You make good points, but you are missing a huge one here.

What have we been doing during the entirety of 7.0? That's right. Collecting the Pillars of Creation. And why do we need them? To close the Burning Legion portals. Where are the portals opened from? Tomb of Sargeras. And where is Tomb of Sargeras? That's right. Broken Shore.

We were always meant to go to the Broken Shore and raid the Tomb. It was the endline of this expack until Illidan did his fuckery. So no, Thal'Dranath wasn't replaced by Broken Shore. The Broken Shore was always going to be a patch.

Also in the audiobook, "Thal'Dranath" is used as Broken Shore's original elven name. The island itself is scrapped but just its name survived.

Now to what replaced Thal'dranath.... My bet is Karazhan. Let's take a look at some facts:

a) Thal'Dranath is scrapped because it was yet another elf-heavy zone and we already had too much of these (Azsuna, Suramar, Val'sharah) in the Broken Isles = My guess is that we'd go there to get the last Pillar of Creation (something related to Norgannon, Eonar or Sargeras) before we hit Broken Shore.
b) It is replaced with a much cooler thing = What could possibly be cooler than Karazhan returning as a raid-like mega-dungeon? (And let's not forget the Trial of Valor)

[Peroxidex]

Ahem.

You make good points, but you are missing a huge one here.

What have we been doing during the entirety of 7.0? That's right. Collecting the Pillars of Creation. And why do we need them? To close the Burning Legion portals. Where are the portals opened from? Tomb of Sargeras. And where is Tomb of Sargeras? That's right. Broken Shore.

We were always meant to go to the Broken Shore and raid the Tomb. It was the endline of this expack until Illidan did his fuckery. So no, Thal'Dranath wasn't replaced by Broken Shore. The Broken Shore was always going to be a patch.

Also in the audiobook, "Thal'Dranath" is used as Broken Shore's original elven name. The island itself is scrapped but just its name survived.

Now to what replaced Thal'dranath.... My bet is Karazhan. Let's take a look at some facts:

a) Thal'Dranath is scrapped because it was yet another elf-heavy zone and we already had too much of these (Azsuna, Suramar, Val'sharah) in the Broken Isles = My guess is that we'd go there to get the last Pillar of Creation (something related to Norgannon, Eonar or Sargeras) before we hit Broken Shore.
b) It is replaced with a much cooler thing = What could possibly be cooler than Karazhan returning as a raid-like mega-dungeon? (And let's not forget the Trial of Valor)

You should get that tickle in your throat checked out.

You're right, we were on the Broken Shore before Legion even launched with the 40 man event and it should be obvious that's where we're headed with the Tomb of Sargeras. My theory was that they decided to make it into a Timeless Isle esque zone we have now. Here's the original and the current Broken Shore which you can see has been expanded.

As for Karazhan, it was actually announced at the Blizzcon 2015 Q&A as an upcoming dungeon in Legion. That is obviously a long time before Thal'Dranath was officially scrapped so I would have to disagree. A fun side note, they even hint at Alleria and Turalyon which as we know, are part of the 7.3 Argus patch.

[TheFirstOnes]

That's not true. I hadn't heard the word 'argus' until this last patch when i found out that once i killed the last boss there would be a big planet seen everywhere called 'argus'.

It's the Capital of the Legion. It's also where Argus' World Souls' at, as well as the Titan Spirits. I'm more shocked by the fact that you just learned about Argus now. But hey, you might not know about the Lore as much. That's fine.

[TyrannicalPuppy]

So what do you guys think? Intentional misinformation by Blizzard again or did they change their 'plans' like in WoD? If its the latter, what do you think made them change their plans (lorewise).

Intentional misinformation to make people shut the hell up about this. Clearly it failed.

[Deleted]

In some other thread i was thinking the same about all these retcon stuff: we have no reason to not beleive sargeras found a way to reproduce with some fel manipulation (therefore argus would be just the cradle of the fel-titan soul, it wouldnt contradict with anything said before). As it would be much weaker then a a naturally evolved titan (or maybe he isnt totally evolved) would answer how can we fight with him. We clearly dont know enough information on this matter yet.

You are spreading quite some misinformation here, there is no reason to even assume titans CAN reproduce. Aman'thul and later the pantheon made it their mission to look for more world souls and to find more of their kin, there was never any mention that they had any form of intercourse or were even capable of such.

Using headcanon to speculate things without any former mention anywhere, just makes ppl delusional that these headcanons are real and we end up arguing about blatantly wrong information.



OT: I do wish there was more build up to learn that Argus is a world soul, but then again the lore is so baddly written that lore wise we still don't know that the legion their goal is to stop the void. Cause apparently demons think it's better to make your enemies think you are power hungry instead of trying to recruit them by telling your goal.