Tomb of Sargeras Progression Thread

[RoKPaNda]

I wanted Exorsus to win but it is extremely difficult to support them when their GM goes on nonsensical emotional whines.

Ruining Titanforging or Raid lockouts for 100% of players to alleviate issues with a game mode that less than 5% of players even participate in (Mythic raiding.) when in reality the problems only exist for the top handful of guilds in that group. Fuck that. At best just make TF cap out 5 levels below the current tier of Mythic raiding. It's literally ONLY a problem for them.

No normal person gives if a shit if very rarely an LFR pleb gets a decent item. The problem is the way that the WF race works.

The problem isn't TF or legendaries, or RNG, or any of that. The problem lies solely with the top end of Mythic raiding, and that's what needs to be fixed.

[Lahis]

I wanted Exorsus to win but it is extremely difficult to support them when their GM goes on nonsensical emotional whines.

Ruining Titanforging or Raid lockouts for 100% of players to alleviate issues with a game mode that less than 5% of players even participate in (Mythic raiding.) when in reality the problems only exist for the top handful of guilds in that group. Fuck that. At best just make TF cap out 5 levels below the current tier of Mythic raiding. It's literally ONLY a problem for them.

No normal person gives if a shit if very rarely an LFR pleb gets a decent item. The problem is the way that the WF race works.

The problem isn't TF or legendaries, or RNG, or any of that. The problem lies solely with the top end of Mythic raiding, and that's what needs to be fixed.

Honestly wouldn't mind if TF for items below Mythic would be capped at Mythic item level (so 930 now, 940 for KJ loot). Would mean less pressure for us to keep farming HC till the end of time.

[zyniker]

I wanted Exorsus to win but it is extremely difficult to support them when their GM goes on nonsensical emotional whines.

Ruining Titanforging or Raid lockouts for 100% of players to alleviate issues with a game mode that less than 5% of players even participate in (Mythic raiding.) when in reality the problems only exist for the top handful of guilds in that group. Fuck that. At best just make TF cap out 5 levels below the current tier of Mythic raiding. It's literally ONLY a problem for them.

No normal person gives if a shit if very rarely an LFR pleb gets a decent item. The problem is the way that the WF race works.

The problem isn't TF or legendaries, or RNG, or any of that. The problem lies solely with the top end of Mythic raiding, and that's what needs to be fixed.

Titanforging as it stands now (and to a lesser extent Legendaries) puts the encounter design team into a weird spot because they have an extra set of variables to take into account when tuning. Its less about "omg some lfr hero got a bis piece that maxed out the TF roll" and more about QA having to figure out an appropriate ilvl to tune a fight around. If they miss the mark by tuning the raid around too low an ilvl you wind up with EN where the place is done in like 18 hours, but if they miss the mark like they did with the initial version of KJ you get a boss that's nigh impossible.

[Jastall]

Honestly wouldn't mind if TF for items below Mythic would be capped at Mythic item level (so 930 now, 940 for KJ loot). Would mean less pressure for us to keep farming HC till the end of time.

That I could agree with. Cap TF at +15 ilvl for raid gear, so it's the equal to what the next tier gives. Keep it unchanged for M+ and WQs. But shared lockouts? Get the fuck out of here with this garbage. That changed for a very good reason.

[Nuckels]

Shared lockouts is a fucking terrible idea. A lot of guilds run Normal and Heroic, or Heroic and Mythic. Some people run Heroic but also LFR to get missing trinkets/tier pieces, etc. They don't burn themselves out because they don't run 6-7 Heroic split runs per week. Not only will this harm guilds, but also pug raiding as well, since now people will only try to clear 1 difficulty and screw the rest. And a lot of people run LFR and a bit of Normal, these are in fact the majority of raiders. They'd be fucked over by this change as well.

I definitely don't want to screw over 99% of raiders just because the 5 guilds at the top feel the need to nolife the opening weeks of a tier. Want these word firsts? Work for them. Can't handle the grind? Do something else. While I think much of the Reddit post is well constructed and reasonable, this is a very bad idea for raiding in general. I have 0 sympathy for guilds who choose to no-life stuff then try to make Blizz change the game so that they don't feel ''forced'' to no-life.

Easy fix, doing normal/heroic lootlocks you from mythic and vice versa. No harm done as far as I'm concerned. Normal raiders can still do their thing and so can Heroic, just create a lootlock between mythic and normal/heroic.

[Onikaroshi]

Easy fix, doing normal/heroic lootlocks you from mythic and vice versa. No harm done as far as I'm concerned. Normal raiders can still do their thing and so can Heroic, just create a lootlock between mythic and normal/heroic.

Except for the normal Mythic guilds who clear Heroic once a week to use the gear to progress further into Mythic, they don't get burned out from that, no reason to harm them because less than 1% of raiders feel they need to split or have the need "emulate the top" when they're nowhere near it.

[RoKPaNda]

Titanforging as it stands now (and to a lesser extent Legendaries) puts the encounter design team into a weird spot because they have an extra set of variables to take into account when tuning. Its less about "omg some lfr hero got a bis piece that maxed out the TF roll" and more about QA having to figure out an appropriate ilvl to tune a fight around. If they miss the mark by tuning the raid around too low an ilvl you wind up with EN where the place is done in like 18 hours, but if they miss the mark like they did with the initial version of KJ you get a boss that's nigh impossible.

And again the fix to that isn't to gut titanforging. It's to set the cap to like 5~ levels below current tier Mythic. And again that ONLY applies to the cutting edge WF race handful of guilds. The pace of NH/ToS is fantastic regardless of Titanforging. It's when people do weird shit that problems arise, and honestly it's such a small subset of the playerbase that Blizzard doesn't even acknowledge (The WF racers.) that a fix isn't even needed. But to stop the flood of tears from Exorsus they could just make TF cap out right below current tier Mythic, 5 ilevels or so, and the "problem" is fixed.

[Jastall]

Easy fix, doing normal/heroic lootlocks you from mythic and vice versa. No harm done as far as I'm concerned. Normal raiders can still do their thing and so can Heroic, just create a lootlock between mythic and normal/heroic.

And people who do Heroic and Mythic, such as myself? You just either discouraged them from doing progression altogether, or forced their weekly Heroic farm runs to be half pointless. Enjoy seeing the already small Mythic population dwindle even further.

No. Shared lockouts is a terrible idea. Let the top guilds exhaust themselves split running. Punishing other parts of the playerbase for their bad habits is not good design at all.

[Nuckels]

And people who do Heroic and Mythic, such as myself? You just either discouraged them from doing progression altogether, or forced their weekly Heroic farm runs to be half pointless. Enjoy seeing the already small Mythic population dwindle even further.

No. Shared lockouts is a terrible idea. Let the top guilds exhaust themselves split running. Punishing other parts of the playerbase for their bad habits is not good design at all.

Then delete the ability for raidgear to titanforge above mythic loot, its easy to blame raiders for their habits but when encounters are tuned around having to do it in the first place it really is a design issue. You think those guilds woulda killed Avatar if they didnt do so many splits? Cause the answer is they woudn't have. Blizzard forces themselfs to have to tune encounters this silly by having 3 difficulties which can drop better gear then mythic kiljaeden, this is fucking retarded. (I am even ignoring the fact people go back to previous content for trinkets/tier/relics which can ALSO roll above mythic kiljaeden loot.)

Splits are not an "option" at the highend, you do them or you dont progress after you reach a certain boss till you do a few weeks of Mythic kills. Even if its just a temporary lootlock for a few weeks, something has to be done. Mythic raiding is dieing partially because of the insane requirements to kill encounters in their original incarnation, you either do splits or you wait for nerfs right now.

[BiggestNoob]

Lots of people still asserting shared lockouts hurts guilds without actually providing evidence. I'm also a big fan of the argument that this somehow "harms" guilds running multiple difficulties, the lack of understanding of how mythic is tuned is hilarious. Emotions are good arguments, apparently.

[Jastall]

Then delete the ability for raidgear to titanforge above mythic loot, its easy to blame raiders for their habits but when encounters are tuned around having to do it in the first place it really is a design issue. You think those guilds woulda killed Avatar if they didnt do so many splits? Cause the answer is they woudn't have. Blizzard forces themselfs to have to tune encounters this silly by having 3 difficulties which can drop better gear then mythic kiljaeden, this is fucking retarded.

Splits are not an "option" at the highend, you do them or you dont progress after you reach a certain boss till you do a few weeks of Mythic kills. Even if its just a temporary lootlock for a few weeks.

I'm ok with Heroic gear not TFing above Mythic, and tuning around that as appropriate. We also know that ToS's tuning problems were because Blizz fucked up that one raid, not because of the systems in place. The tuning in ToV and NH was fine at the top end, as the Exorsus guy said.

But stopping people from running more than 1 difficulty because 5-10 guilds in the world need to do split runs is bullshit. There's no reason to penalize so many for the actions of so few.

[Jimson]

Then delete the ability for raidgear to titanforge above mythic loot, its easy to blame raiders for their habits but when encounters are tuned around having to do it in the first place it really is a design issue. You think those guilds woulda killed Avatar if they didnt do so many splits? Cause the answer is they woudn't have. Blizzard forces themselfs to have to tune encounters this silly by having 3 difficulties which can drop better gear then mythic kiljaeden, this is fucking retarded.

Splits are not an "option" at the highend, you do them or you dont progress after you reach a certain boss till you do a few weeks of Mythic kills. Even if its just a temporary lootlock for a few weeks, something has to be done. Mythic raiding is dieing partially because of the insane requirements to kill encounters in their original incarnation, you either do splits or you wait for nerfs right now.

No, I don't think they would have killed the end boss in three weeks if they didn't have the gear from splits. Do you want to discuss whether the end boss NEEDS to be killed in three weeks by two guilds? If that's your justification for keeping the lockouts separate, it's lackluster.

[Dangg]

No, I don't think they would have killed the end boss in three weeks if they didn't have the gear from splits. Do you want to discuss whether the end boss NEEDS to be killed in three weeks by two guilds?

If it's due to lack of gear, yes.
Gear gating is even worse design than actual gating.

[Jimson]

If it's due to lack of gear, yes.
Gear gating is even worse design than actual gating.

Can you name one raid that hasn't been "gear gated" in the history of WoW? Barring Wrath Naxx tier, perhaps. It's the way raids work.

[Nuckels]

No, I don't think they would have killed the end boss in three weeks if they didn't have the gear from splits. Do you want to discuss whether the end boss NEEDS to be killed in three weeks by two guilds? If that's your justification for keeping the lockouts separate, it's lackluster.

A encounter should be mechanicly difficult, not a brick numbers check that you either can or can not make. Does a end boss NEED to be killed in three weeks? No. Should it be killable if the raidgroups is good enough by the time they get there? Yes.

Its a domino effect in the end.
Splits > more gear > tighter mythic tuning > forced to do splits. The chain has to be broken at its core. The core issue is how rewarding it is to do splits, more gear, more geared characters for class stacking etc.

Make more mythic gear drop, stop the ability to have non current mythic gear proc to the ilvl of the current mythic content, it will go a long way. Will it stop splits? No but it sure as shit will make predicting the ilvl of your avg raidgroup more predictable and splits less rewarding. This will let Blizzard tune fights more appropiately for your average raidgroup rather then tuning them for the top 0.01% of raiders who do those splits and then nerf them 2weeks later for the rest because the gap between the ilvl is so big.

The worst part of this all is the fact that people go in to mythic right now having a higher average itemlevel then the gear that actually drops from the bosses they kill.

[Dangg]

Can you name one raid that hasn't been "gear gated" in the history of WoW?

Pretty much every single one, with the endboss sometimes needing maybe one more reset?

Most bosses were doable with gear available at that time given sufficient farming, without having to wait several lockouts.

[Nuckels]

I'm ok with Heroic gear not TFing above Mythic, and tuning around that as appropriate. We also know that ToS's tuning problems were because Blizz fucked up that one raid, not because of the systems in place. The tuning in ToV and NH was fine at the top end, as the Exorsus guy said.

But stopping people from running more than 1 difficulty because 5-10 guilds in the world need to do split runs is bullshit. There's no reason to penalize so many for the actions of so few.

ToV guarm and helya turning was pretty off as well, if your group did zero splits goodluck doing guarm week 1 (and for that matter helya p3 dps check.) Also you really need to do your research before making statements if you really think only 5 to 10 guilds do splits.

[Onikaroshi]

A encounter should be mechanicly difficult, not a brick numbers check that you either can or can not make. Does a end boss NEED to be killed in three weeks? No. Should it be killable if the raidgroups is good enough by the time they get there? Yes.

Its a domino effect in the end.
Splits > more gear > tighter mythic tuning > forced to do splits. The chain has to be broken at its core. The core issue is how rewarding it is to do splits, more gear, more geared characters for class stacking etc.

Make more mythic gear drop, stop the ability to have non current mythic gear proc to the ilvl of the current mythic content, it will go a long way. Will it stop splits? No but it sure as shit will make predicting the ilvl of your avg raidgroup more predictable and splits less rewarding. This will let Blizzard tune fights more appropiately for your average raidgroup rather then tuning them for the top 0.01% of raiders who do those splits and then nerf them 2weeks later for the rest because the gap between the ilvl is so big.

The worst part of this all is the fact that people go in to mythic right now having a higher average itemlevel then the gear that actually drops from the bosses they kill.

With Zero WF/TF and a little gold you can hit 928 without even stepping into mythic, the "average ilvl" point is moot, 75% of your gear can be 915 and you can still be damn close to 930 (939 weapon and 2 970 legendaries), that's a lot of upgrading. Max Ilvl sans KJ and sans WF/TF if you are full mythic geared is 937, those guilds still had room to improve.

[Nuckels]

With Zero WF/TF and a little gold you can hit 928 without even stepping into mythic, the "average ilvl" point is moot, 80% of your gear can be 915 and you can still be damn close to 930, that's a lot of upgrading. Max Ilvl sans KJ and sans WF/TF if you are full mythic geared is 937, those guilds still had room to improve.

Except its not just about ilvl, its about the ilvl of the right tier/relics/trinkets. Did I really need to specify what kind of gear I ment with ilvl?

[Gorsameth]

Lots of people still asserting shared lockouts hurts guilds without actually providing evidence. I'm also a big fan of the argument that this somehow "harms" guilds running multiple difficulties, the lack of understanding of how mythic is tuned is hilarious. Emotions are good arguments, apparently.

The reason many of us respond in the way we are is because its already been tried, we raided under a shared lockout system and it sucked. It was changed for a reason.
The link following link is from a Commentary from Blizzard on why the system was changed at the start of WoD where it went to the current system of lockout per boss per difficulty on levels below Mythic.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...rds-of-draenor