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[apepi]

It isn't just about supports. Unless you are playing in Master or higher and you play anything that requires slightly advanced coordination and understanding, it just fails miserably most of the time and the few times it works, it is a massive stomp fest.

For example I think of myself as pretty decent Illidan player and can play him regardless of team composition, but most of the time people don't understand how to play with Illidan. I either get team to constantly wait for me with engages and blame me for doing nothing which is not an ideal way for Illidan to engage or they hard engage and wipe when I am destroying their fort instead of poking and waiting for me to engage. When people understand how to soak and play with that, the game is one-sided stomp because I take all the camps, siege base and Hunt in to clean up started fight.

Basically in lower Tiers of HL, just forget anything you know from HGC and just go with strong brawling Heroes or map cheese strats.

Yeah, I feel the same as my Stiches...My last game I had an 80% hook accuracy, and I was the only reason we were even in the game. We ended up losing because no one followed through.

But like my Arthas? He is a boss. I have him at 89% win ratio, out of 18 games(have only lost two). I just feel like playing him...I don't need a good healer. Hell I don't even need good dps. All I need is people who attack a target I try to shutout/lock down and don't get killed/let them attack me. If I am able to do that I have won the game.

Xul has been my cheese hero. I just recently had an Infernal Shrines game. My team bitched so hard that I did not come to the first objective...but by the second one what did we have? Level 10 while the other team was still 8. They did not realize I had carried them to that and continued bitching at me.

Though to be honest...even though I seem to be doing very good as Arthas...it isn't exactly fun. I like to be playing wierd heroes like Murky, Aba and support and such...but I can't seem to win with them. :/

[TITAN308]

Was playing a little Li-Ming.

Got put into a QM match with two grouped players: Valeera and Nova.

Yea...

[purebalance]

So yet another Infernal Shrines game where I play perfectly as I support and still lose. I played Uther this time and out healed the other healer, did not die once and yet I still lose. This is why I stopped playing support as much and switched to maining tank. Which honestly happened so fluidly...when ever I got stuck playing tank I just happen to win more.

Not dying is not an indicator of playing well. Typically a player who has 0 deaths while their teammates have multiple was feeding by proxy aka leaving team fights to live themselves or simply ignoring fights and letting people die.

[apepi]

Not dying is not an indicator of playing well. Typically a player who has 0 deaths while their teammates have multiple was feeding by proxy aka leaving team fights to live themselves or simply ignoring fights and letting people die.

Some times yes, sometimes it is about knowing when to quit so the other team doesn't get the exp for killing you. If I am stunning and healing people yet they still die by misplacement, I am not going to stick around for a 3v5. I try to fight smart, not bang my head vs a wall. Some people stay in a fight for way too long when it is a losing battle. Honestly sometimes it sucks to not die as a healer...as it forces you to hearth back and get mana.

[NoiseTank13]

Not dying is not an indicator of playing well.

Dumbest thing I've read. Lives are valuable and shouldn't be given up willy nilly. People should learn when to keep it, and what rare occasions to give it (i.e trading or objective/boss).

I've let plenty of people die too, because they dove in 2v5 and our other 2 were dead.

You simply don't accomplish shit when you are dead.

[Nikkaszal]

Dumbest thing I've read. Lives are valuable and shouldn't be given up willy nilly. People should learn when to keep it, and what rare occasions to give it (i.e trading or objective/boss).

I've let plenty of people die too, because they dove in 2v5 and our other 2 were dead.

You simply don't accomplish shit when you are dead.

It's not that "not dying" is bad, it's that "not dying" is NOT a meaningful metric to use as good play.

More often than not, the people with zero deaths are the ones that abandon their team early during fights, or don't turn up to fights at all.

A lot of people take one look at a fight and go NOPE BAD ENGAGE and immediately book it out of there; all this means is that it's turned a disadvantageous 5v5 situation into a hopeless 4v5 one. You might as well have died anyway, for all the good you did your team.

[apepi]

It's not that "not dying" is bad, it's that "not dying" is NOT a meaningful metric to use as good play.

More often than not, the people with zero deaths are the ones that abandon their team early during fights, or don't turn up to fights at all.

A lot of people take one look at a fight and go NOPE BAD ENGAGE and immediately book it out of there; all this means is that it's turned a disadvantageous 5v5 situation into a hopeless 4v5 one. You might as well have died anyway, for all the good you did your team.

You know what? I will go ahead and Rewatch my replay and try to get a more objective view and list the most notable things here, it is a bit of a read.

Match is Uther(Me), Varian, Gul'dan, Xul and Greymane vs Dva, Johanna, Li Ming, Li Li, Sylvanas. First Death: Gul'dan dying to misplacement. I was using my heals to heal the melee/tank(Varian). Objective spawns, it is 4 vs 5 with Greymane hearthing and coming back, I heal Xul because he was getting hit hard but Varian ends up dying but we do kill Li LI. We continue to fight and I go oom from healing. Their team barely wins objective by 2. I hearth for mana. I do miss 1 heal(Holy Radiance, Team moves unpredictably). We cap bot siege camp, I move middle because no one is soaking it. A fight breaks out mid because they try to steal our left siege camp, we kill Li Li again, but Dva kills our bot fort because no one was there. Objective spawns middle. I run oom and have to tap, while they continue to fight over objective, we get a kill on Syl. We get the objective(I have completed my Holy radiance quest by level 10). Only 3 people push mid with punisher, Greymane gets the Shaman camp....Xul hearths, we only gets the gate of the fort. I hearth(oom). Another(pointless) middle fight. I should have used(and picked) Divine shield to save Gul'dan, but he died. So I end up using it on Xul and he lives. Top objective starts. I Divine Greymane so he doesn't die. I miss one Holy Radiance heal. Greymane dies to Syl curse because he brought it over to him...I hearth to get mana as other team wins objective. We kill Li- Ming defending...Greymane is bot. Varian dies but we kill Dva, they get our top fort. I hearth to get back half mana. Another(pointless) middle fight happens. Xul dies(maybe I should have ulted him), I ult GM. Middle objective spawns. We kill Li Li, but GM dies as my Divine Shield cd comes up. We get middle punisher, killed Dva. We kill their fort, we kill Li Li while killing mid keep. I Divine Shield Gul'dan, though it was most likely useless as he used his Horrify right before I Dsed(I view this one as a 'mistake' but nothing could be done, I don't have that reaction time). I hearth. Bot objective spawns. I Ult Xul. Gul'dan, Varian and Xul dies. They get the objective. I go top and and defend our keep vs minions. I know that bot keep is going to die. Gm tries to defend it and dies by himself. Gul'dan then tries the same and dies. They kill our core.

While I do now feel I did miss like two Divine Shields and a few Holy Radiance(I can't read people's minds...) I do think I played pretty much perfect as I could and yet still lost the game. I never just ran from a fight after one person died and even went in melee myself but I did leave when I knew that it was a losing battle. So I do feel like my point still stands. You can play (marginally) perfect as a support and still lose. Because as a support you are playing to not lose, not playing to win. I don't feel like supports really have the tools to 'win' games, which is why I am now losing with them in hero league and why no one else seems to want to play them either. As long as you are not a crappy support that causes you to lose games, you are at the mercy our your own team(4 other people) to be able for them to win it for you. This is why many supports like me go Water Dragon, Divine Storm, Twilight Dream and etc to make it at least feel like we can make a game winning play to put our team in a position to win. Though many people still bitch and moan "OMG why did you not go the heal ult!", I almost wish there was no heal ults.

Now on to a game that I played today...Tyrael on Warhead Junction. At level 16 I was able to separate there team with my Q and get some good kills. I am almost swearing that Tyrael is a great pick on that map now.

[Charge me Doctor]

Dumbest thing I've read. Lives are valuable and shouldn't be given up willy nilly. People should learn when to keep it, and what rare occasions to give it (i.e trading or objective/boss).

I've let plenty of people die too, because they dove in 2v5 and our other 2 were dead.

You simply don't accomplish shit when you are dead.

It's not the case of "well everyone died i might as well too", or "i'm going to fight under enemy fort lol who care deaths don't matter", but the case of players deliberately avoiding fights and situations when they may be vulnerable, making their team to do all the work, so they can safely jump in and do something.

Even a character without any fucking mana or at low health should stay around in a fight instead of hearthing away - they'll get mana for a skill that may or may not save someones life. You have to stay around and support each other - hopping up on your horse from a backline abandoning your tank who gets all the beating just because "lol i'll die just leave him there" is not how teamplay works.

- - - Updated - - -

You know what? I will go ahead and Rewatch my replay and try to get a more objective view and list the most notable things here, it is a bit of a read.

It's a good thing that you watch your replays, but i failed to notice how that fits the current discussion.

The case of "i hearth for mana" just kills me every time - especially when full health hero does that, if you lost a fight (it's a kinda obvious when the fight is lost and you should retreat if possible, and it's not when "your whole team just dies") you have to stick around and support your team to retreat safely with as many people alive as possible. Playing mostly Tyrande now i can't stress this enough - staing at 30% health and 10% mana saves fucking lives, one stun or just peppering that pesky Rehgar that bites the ass off retreating Brightwing with arrows helps a lot

[apepi]

The case of "i hearth for mana" just kills me every time - especially when full health hero does that, if you lost a fight (it's a kinda obvious when the fight is lost and you should retreat if possible, and it's not when "your whole team just dies") you have to stick around and support your team to retreat safely with as many people alive as possible. Playing mostly Tyrande now i can't stress this enough - staing at 30% health and 10% mana saves fucking lives, one stun or just peppering that pesky Rehgar that bites the ass off retreating Brightwing with arrows helps a lot

Maybe, but at my rank right now(low gold) some people have tunnel vision and continue to fight forever. I can't save that no matter how much I help. I generally play Arthas and never hearth. I just use my trait to get mana and use none of my skill grabbing the globe.

[NoiseTank13]

It's not the case of "well everyone died i might as well too", or "i'm going to fight under enemy fort lol who care deaths don't matter", but the case of players deliberately avoiding fights and situations when they may be vulnerable, making their team to do all the work, so they can safely jump in and do something.

Even a character without any fucking mana or at low health should stay around in a fight instead of hearthing away - they'll get mana for a skill that may or may not save someones life. You have to stay around and support each other - hopping up on your horse from a backline abandoning your tank who gets all the beating just because "lol i'll die just leave him there" is not how teamplay works.

And if that tank is taking the beating so his team could get away? What then? Is that not teamplay? Someone taking one for the team and going in to buy some time so people can play defensively to hold off the other team as best they can? You need to know when to cut your losses. And of fucking course, when and where you need to cut them will always be different to some people.

There is always the case for "overextending" and if I mash several times that my mana is 2% and go to hearth, usually people get the hint. If not, well they get what's coming to them.

This whole rage against "low death" players just reeks to me of someone who saw someone they think didn't deserve MVP status for not dying a couple times.

[Charge me Doctor]

Maybe, but at my rank right now(low gold) some people have tunnel vision and continue to fight forever. I can't save that no matter how much I help. I generally play Arthas and never hearth. I just use my trait to get mana and use none of my skill grabbing the globe.

That's fair, but backing off 6 seconds early won't change much (most of the time), and as a support like Uther/Lili you don't have much use outside of teamfights - your pushing potential is lackluster, you can't defend forts effectively, you are not a threat for enemy team without... your team. You shouldn't just stick around until everyone died, say "well i did everything i could" - you should see that your Muradin is not going to survive with 5 people oh his tail, Armour buff wore off and his jump on CD - i wouldn't even bother using my cooldowns on him, or risk Genji getting resets and jumping on me instead. But when 2 from your team dies and enemy team has nothing left but auto-attacks for four seconds - leaving your teammates behind (at least give them a chance to hop onto their horse) will encourage enemy to pick off easy kills, they won't see you as a team, they'll see you as 3 isolated players who pose no real threat to 5 players even at low health and without ults

- - - Updated - - -

And if that tank is taking the beating so his team could get away? What then? Is that not teamplay? Someone taking one for the team and going in to buy some time so people can play defensively to hold off the other team as best they can? You need to know when to cut your losses. And of fucking course, when and where you need to cut them will always be different to some people.

There is always the case for "overextending" and if I mash several times that my mana is 2% and go to hearth, usually people get the hint. If not, well they get what's coming to them.

This whole rage against "low death" players just reeks to me of someone who saw someone they think didn't deserve MVP status for not dying a couple times.

At this point i would prefer to discuss a specific replay to agree or disagree, it's already obvious that we look at the game from different standpoints, doing these "what ifs" is exhausting

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't just about supports. Unless you are playing in Master or higher and you play anything that requires slightly advanced coordination and understanding, it just fails miserably most of the time and the few times it works, it is a massive stomp fest.

For example I think of myself as pretty decent Illidan player and can play him regardless of team composition, but most of the time people don't understand how to play with Illidan. I either get team to constantly wait for me with engages and blame me for doing nothing which is not an ideal way for Illidan to engage or they hard engage and wipe when I am destroying their fort instead of poking and waiting for me to engage. When people understand how to soak and play with that, the game is one-sided stomp because I take all the camps, siege base and Hunt in to clean up started fight.

Basically in lower Tiers of HL, just forget anything you know from HGC and just go with strong brawling Heroes or map cheese strats.

Last game on Hanamura with Illidan on our side... He was doing a great job at playing solo (taking scout mercs for experience, effectively pushing against Azmodan (SOMEFUCKINGHOW), sometimes he didn't managed to get into teamfights but we usually play as 3 stack and Tyrande+Uther+Tychus combo is really great for that, we were able to 3v4 and 3v5 without loss), but the very last minutes were just awesome

Score is 1 : 1 on Hanamura.
Enemy have 2 payloads available, boss is down.
Everyone is fucking dead on my side, i play Tyrande, 3 enemies are alive (D'va, Genji, Low health Azmo) and pushing a cart that goes from the middle to the top.
15 seconds until Illidan and Co comes out of the tavern.
I rush towards the moving cart.
Get in there right split seconds before it reaches the point.
Block it in invis for about 5 seconds, get knocked out by D'Va
They stack on top of me.
Eat a lunar flare.
Eat an owl.
Eat a second lunar flare.
Illidan yells "don't lose the vision!" and runs for me (like i'm going to even move lol).
Spam alt+Q like a madman.
3 other players rush towards our cart that was half-way delivered.
Genji dies, i'm at 70% health and at almost no mana thanks to Q spam and lunar flare madnes that just happened.
Azmodan dies too.
"Feel the hatred of ten thousand years!" i feel a relief.
"Nerf this!".
Fuck this shit i'm not moving.
Illidan gets the fuck out of "the nuke option" explosion
I get blasted away.
He jumps right back before payload delivers.
Our payloads gets delivered by 3 teammates on theo ther side of the map.
G fucking G.

I don't recall being this pumped in hots, like, ever.
And yeah it helps that it was my diamond 4 promo game.
Illidan was the beast tho

[apepi]

It is just amazing how good Tyrael is on Warhead Junction. When I saw his winratio on that map I thought "Wtf? 54% on Warhead Junction? Why? Fuck lets try it." What I discovered was Judgement was brilliant on the map because it is so large. But around the objective there are so many corners at 16 you can seriously change a team fight with your Q block. And lets not forget that there is two bosses, so if you are contesting a boss, it is always yours at 16.

[Tenjen]

Recently i've been going back to adapting on the fly to the enemy teams composition and talents.

Now i used to do this before but i would choose the handful of best talent builds for whatever hero i had that best fit the enemy comp.

Generally i still aim towards a strong build that goes against them but i keep myself much more flexible.

On Cassia I went with a heavy blind build with stuff that also enhances her movement trait with the valkyrie ult. Its nowhere on any build site but we were fighting a team with 5 ranged dps, mostly AA. I wasn't even in the upper 50% damage percentile of my group and didn't get too many kills but I completely shut down enemy damage and setup an enormous amount of kills for my team mates.

[apepi]

Recently i've been going back to adapting on the fly to the enemy teams composition and talents.

Now i used to do this before but i would choose the handful of best talent builds for whatever hero i had that best fit the enemy comp.

Generally i still aim towards a strong build that goes against them but i keep myself much more flexible.

On Cassia I went with a heavy blind build with stuff that also enhances her movement trait with the valkyrie ult. Its nowhere on any build site but we were fighting a team with 5 ranged dps, mostly AA. I wasn't even in the upper 50% damage percentile of my group and didn't get too many kills but I completely shut down enemy damage and setup an enormous amount of kills for my team mates.

I more focus on the right hero for the map, like Xul on Shrines and Tomb, Tyrael on Warhead.

[RH92]

I more focus on the right hero for the map, like Xul on Shrines and Tomb, Tyrael on Warhead.

It is weird, recently I found pretty good success just being a two trick pony.

Unless I don't have to fill a missing position or I feel like playing something else, I just pick Illidan on big maps and Alarak on smaller maps.

Seems to work pretty well.

[Charge me Doctor]

It is weird, recently I found pretty good success just being a two trick pony.

Unless I don't have to fill a missing position or I feel like playing something else, I just pick Illidan on big maps and Alarak on smaller maps.

Seems to work pretty well.

I started picking Tyrande on second turn of picks and it's surprisingly effective (to some extend, when you have diablo and arthas on your team who pull out of a fight @70% health, leaving you exposed to enemy kill team while you stand there and stack Archery... hoping that they'll turn... but they don't... and you see red-eyed Stitches coming your way... it never ends well.

But fuck, dropping double lunar flare on enemy non-tank character is devastating and satisfying. The best time to live is level 20 with 40 stacks of lunar flare quest

[RH92]

I started picking Tyrande on second turn of picks and it's surprisingly effective (to some extend, when you have diablo and arthas on your team who pull out of a fight @70% health, leaving you exposed to enemy kill team while you stand there and stack Archery... hoping that they'll turn... but they don't... and you see red-eyed Stitches coming your way... it never ends well.

But fuck, dropping double lunar flare on enemy non-tank character is devastating and satisfying. The best time to live is level 20 with 40 stacks of lunar flare quest

Tyrande usually feels like a free kill in team fights, but man... She is tough opponent to kill in 1v1.

[Ryme]

I just pick Uther/Xul in 90% of my games and laugh at how badly people are under prioritising them.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Back playing after several weeks of taking a break. The people I am playing with on the ladder are just simply unbearable.

[apepi]

So I had a fun game on Lucio, he is one of the only healers who can take care of themselves and is skill dependent. Playing Stukov, Malf, Uther and even Li Li does not even feel skillful. Sure you don't heal the most, but when you are zooming around the map it helps it a lot. He is also one of the healers who can actually deal with Genji, he tries to go for you? Bop him back and zoom past him auto attacking him. I would argue Luciio might be the fastest hero in the game. Maybe racecar Dehaka might be faster.