Did Trump Endorse Police Brutality?!?

[BrerBear]

I literally stated "We really should treat rapists and murderers with respect." What more do you want to state?

Why are you changing the subject, then?
We're talking about criminal suspects, not rapists and murderers, "friend".

[Machismo]

I literally stated "We really should treat rapists and murderers with respect." What more do you want to state?


I also stated that I have seen a lot of people from these forums read a couple lines in a news article and already judge someone guilty.

It's clear what your intent was, and you know it. I would love to see where people say that rapists and murderers should be treated with more respect than average citizens. Let me know when you can back up such claims.

[BrerBear]

Frontier justice is not justice. It's barbarism with John Wayne's face. In America rule of law is superior to the whims and emotions of people. America being a "nation of laws" is a foundational statement of this country. Extrajudicial punishment without due process, including roughing up criminals, is thus entirely un-American.

It is utterly irrelevant how popular it is in "red state America" or not. Right and wrong are not a popularity contest. They can support frontier justice and be entirely legally (not to mention morally and ethically) wrong about it. When the State that inflicts pain arbitrarily, it is capable of anything, including when who it chooses to inflict pain to. Everything is fine and dandy so long as you're on the winning side. What happens when you're not though.

There is no way to square any kind of "small government" principles with endorsing the state inflicting harm in it's citizens, which include criminals, who are entitled to their rights. Again, when a state empowers its agents to arbitrarily harm, it can empower its agents to arbitrarily do anything. And suddenly its not a small government anymore.

The founders understood this. That is why they wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights the way they did. To constrain the state from doing pretty much exactly what you're describing. They anticipated in generations ahead, Americans would find excuses to act like savages from time to time. They handcuffed us so we couldn't.

This whole Trump fiasco really has separated out the patriotic Republicans from the ones who treat American ideals as nothing more than a red, white, and blue fashion statement.

[MoanaLisa]

Short answer: Yes, he did. And police departments that go along with that are likely to find their suspects let go and arresting officers in front of a federal judge. Trump doesn't really have the authority to tell police departments what they can and can't do. Not yet at least.

[luckydevours]

Nothing wrong with being rough against violent criminals.

Why do you hate the Constitution so much?

[Skroe]

This whole Trump fiasco really has separated out the patriotic Republicans from the ones who treat American ideals as nothing more than a red, white, and blue fashion statement.

The fraud-conservatives out there are opportunistic negative-partisans. They're damn well against things, usually liberal things. But they lack the capacity to be "for" things because principles are sticky and when you compromise on principle it really isn't a principle anymore.

This kind of ropes in with torture. Fifteen years ago I was all about using torture, under the euphamism of "enhanced interrogiation" on terrorists. And you know what over the next few years I came to realize? I, and nearly everyone else who defended it were doing so not because it works - it empirically does not work to produce reliable intelligence, period, fin, over an done. We we were doing so because we felt there was a cosmic justice to it. That the terrorists had it coming. To torture was not an act of intelligence gathering... not really... it was to inflict punishment.

The state inflicting pain as punishment. Considering the number of limitations the founders put on the state doing EXACTLY that in the Constitution, because it was the norm in late 18th century Europe, the United States government doing that is categorically an un-American abomination and an abandonment of our founding principles. A country where the State can inflict pain on people at its mercy is a country that dishonors it's founders who expressedly put in place mechanisms to prevent just that.

That's not to say policing should be velvet gloves and no guns. Quite the contrary, I'm for strong, well funded, assertive policing. But in America the only thing that bestows legitimacy is process and without courts and oversight... without a legitimizing process, there is no legitimacy. When a cop roughs up a suspect already in custody, did a court approve it? No it didn't. So no legitimacy.

Courts and fair hearings are what the founders would not have faced in much of Europe, because the King's law was absolute. To honor their intents for our country is to embrace the slow, but necessary legitimizing process.

Because so many fraud-conservatives seemingly just want to win and don't care how, I keep coming back to this quite from the commander of US forces fighting ISIS, Army Lt. General Sean MacFarland. He was talking about ISIS, but it applies to pretty much everything.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...atters-how-you


"You know, as I mentioned earlier, we are bound by the laws of armed conflict. And, you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't only matter whether or not you win, it matters how you win. And we're the United States of America, and we have a set of guiding principles and those affect the way we as professional soldiers, airmen, sailors, Marines, conduct ourselves on the battlefield. So indiscriminate bombing, where we don't care if we're killing innocents or combatants, is just inconsistent with our values. And it's what the Russians have been accused of doing in parts of northwest Syria. Right now we have the moral high ground, and I think that's where we need to stay."


How you win matters. Morality matters. A state that brutalizes people at its mercy - citizens or non-citizens, has forfeited it's morality.

[Powerogue]

The first thing this reminded me of was the Telltale Batman series, where Harvey Dent is starting to show signs of being unhinged, talking about how his officers should be more like Batman, above the law.

"He knows you can't be gentle with criminals. You've got to strike fear into their hearts! Maybe break a few bones along the way..."



That's not a good thing for this to reminding me of.

[Redwyrm]

The police (not Sting) respond

Police after Trump speech: We don't tolerate 'roughing up' prisoners
Period. Full Stop

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pol...rxR?li=BBnbcA1

[GreenJesus]

Once they are found guilty in court of law then you can put them in jail and have the inmates beat them up and rape them for you.

[Belize]

Does this mean if Trump or any of his kids get arrested, the cops should give 'em a rough ride on the way to the station? Maybe knock some teeth out.

I mean, he IS a suspect in the Russia investigation.

[Themius]

What happened to due process? Criminals aren't guilty until found guilty.

- - - Updated - - -

Those smiling psychotic faces.
Imagine the nut job on the left of trump gets sent to your house for a violent crime, dispatch said it was 890 but the address was 809. Simple mistake. Your kids home alone and she knocks on the door. Fumbling with the phone trying to call you and trying to explain to the officer that it's the wrong address, sounds like hiding evidence and non compliance, empties a clip through the door.
They want to punish, not protect.

You mean like this?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...at-wrong-house

[Mormolyce]

"You know, the way you put their hand over, like, don't hit their head, and they've just killed somebody. Don't hit their head. I said, 'You can take the hand away, OK?'"

- This is about as meaningful as his promise that you'll be saying "Merry Christmas" the next time you go to the store.

Nothing wrong with being rough against violent criminals.

Psssst... they aren't criminals until they're tried and convicted. They're suspects when they're shoving them into the cop cars.

[Bdatik]

Once they are found guilty in court of law then you can put them in jail and have the inmates beat them up and rape them for you.

No, you can't.

[LaserSharkDFB]

I love these threads. They're awesome for getting the people with no morals or humanity to out themselves.

[GreenJesus]

No, you can't.

You don't actively do it.. it just.. happens.

[Gatsbybutters]

What happened to due process? Criminals aren't guilty until found guilty.

- - - Updated - - -




You mean like this?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...at-wrong-house

I feel like it's every week anymore. The people we pay to protect break into someone's house and shoot them dead because someone mixed up a number.
I don't even give them a reason at this point, it's too fucking dangerous. Police think I'm being an ass when they pull me over and I have my hands up, bitch I don't care about you or what you think, just don't shoot me for no reason.

[Masark]

The police (not Sting) respond

Police after Trump speech: We don't tolerate 'roughing up' prisoners
Period. Full Stop

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pol...rxR?li=BBnbcA1

That statement rings rather hollow after hearing the cops cheering trump's statements.

[Orbitus]

Once they are found guilty in court of law then you can put them in jail and have the inmates beat them up and rape them for you.

And if you don't break up the fights and raping, then you are still having cruel and unusual punishment. Which is still against the constitution. Especially if you ask inmates to do it. Not only will you probably set the inmate free, the corrections officer will be the one in jail and the inmate will walk out rich.

[announced]

to be fair i think was just directing this at thugs or BLM supporters. Honestly I dislike police brutality but sometimes suspects decide to fight and police aren't always that forgiving.

[Orbitus]

to be fair i think was just directing this at thugs or BLM supporters. Honestly I dislike police brutality but sometimes suspects decide to fight and police aren't always that forgiving.

And even then, it is illegal. Just because they are "thugs" or "BLM supporters" doesn't mean their rights end when they get arrested.