Does anyone else HATE Warchief Sylvanas

[Zulkhan]

The plague machinery obviously serves as deterrent for Aethas, just to be sure he never shows his sorry face around.

[thebigman154]

yeah i dont like it much cause voljin barely did any shit as warchief, if he had some development and shit it would be cool but he did not do anything

[Trumpcat]

Because she's not a psychopath or busy mass murdering?

But seeing from the username you're not capable of spotting real psychopaths so just leave it at that.

Or rather, judging by your denial, you are definitely capable of ignoring the brutality of someone you like and ascribe it to someone you don't like. You just ignore the innocents Sylvanas has butchered to fuel her undead ranks and to expand her lands (very clearly said in the story). Instead you'd rather lean towards bashing me on real world politics? Where are your arguments, or in the lack of such you automatically go onto personal attacks? So indeed, let's leave it at that.

[Zulkhan]

You just ignore the innocents Sylvanas has butchered to fuel her undead ranks

Who are those?

and to expand her lands (very clearly said in the story)

It didn't seem to me like Sylvanas expanded much as rather cleansed the Alliance presence out of her kingdom's borders. The only act of expansionism I can think at is the taking of Andorhal but the Alliance wanted that place just as much, despite being way farther from the Plaguelands than the Forsaken are.

[omeomorfismo]

Who are those?



It didn't seem to me like Sylvanas expanded much as rather cleansed the Alliance presence out of her kingdom's borders. The only act of expansionism I can think at is the taking of Andorhal but the Alliance wanted that place just as much, despite being way farther from the Plaguelands than the Forsaken are.

technically andhoral was an attack to clean the zone from the renmant of scourge, then alliance backstabbed forsaken

[Stormdash]

I like Sylvanas, so far though "Warchief Sylvanas" has been a pretty astounding let down. Now, it's true, she is on point in making sure we know that Greymane's forces need a proper rank-breaking at this warden tower, but the pre-patch and launch made it sound like this was her Joseph Campbell hero's journey expansion story, but now it just feels like "I know, let's make Sylvanas Warchief, because Sylvanas".

[Trumpcat]

Who are those?

The population of Hilsbrad Foothills, including ambushing the refugees and slaughtering them. The population of Gilneas - the kingdom she ransacked. She deployed the plague, even the mad Garrosh didn't want her to use it (he was rightfully afraid of it).

It didn't seem to me like Sylvanas expanded much as rather cleansed the Alliance presence out of her kingdom's borders. The only act of expansionism I can think at is the taking of Andorhal but the Alliance wanted that place just as much, despite being way farther from the Plaguelands than the Forsaken are.

She "cleansed the Alliance presence" that's a very smooth way to put it, nevermind all that population was actually native there. I like your wording

Arthas and Garrosh were closer to be actual psychopaths than Sylvanas ever was. Sylvanas is merely (and savagely) fucked up by the ridiculous amount of suffering and trauma she went through.

So we agree Sylvanas is fucked up. In life she fought valiantly and was savagely punished for it. So in turn she goes onto inflicting suffering on others? Does her trauma excuse her for causing the same to others (killing and rising them)? There was no runeblade to suck her soul and no dark whispers to madden her, we can't say she was made to do so, because she wan't.

Arthas had his sanity and soul sucked out in a plot that's been years in the making. Still the lore (mainly the Arthas book, but also in game) has a clear point that the tiny fraction of Arthas' true being kept resisting the Lich King and was the thing that withheld him from unleashing hell upon the world, which in turn allowed us to lead our campaign and defeat him.

As for Garrosh... he is a true Orc who proved twice that Orcs don't need demonic corruption to become rampaging killing machines, just dangle the carrot of conquest, say go and they go. He easily rallied his people not just against the Alliance, but even against their own allies - to the extent Belves were negotiation going back into the Alliance. He then went to Draenor, dangled the carrot of conquest there and suddenly we had the Iron Horde ready to conquer us. "We will never be slaves, but we will be conquerors!" awesome.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The population of Hilsbrad Foothills, including ambushing the refugees and slaughtering them. The population of Gilneas - the kingdom she ransacked. She deployed the plague, even the mad Garrosh didn't want her to use it (he was rightfully afraid of it).

Garrosh was never afraid of the blight, it just went against his plan.

She "cleansed the Alliance presence" that's a very smooth way to put it, nevermind all that population was actually native there. I like your wording

only in a magical fantasy kingdom do you let active members of an enemy faction you are at war with live inside or right next to your borders.

So we agree Sylvanas is fucked up. In life she fought valiantly and was savagely punished for it. So in turn she goes onto inflicting suffering on others? Does her trauma excuse her for causing the same to others (killing and rising them)? There was no runeblade to suck her soul and no dark whispers to madden her, we can't say she was made to do so, because she wan't.

If you read the book you would know dark magic was used on her. Arthas did suck her soul out, chew it up and specifically experimented on her to turn her into the first scourge Banshee

Arthas had his sanity and soul sucked out in a plot that's been years in the making. Still the lore (mainly the Arthas book, but also in game) has a clear point that the tiny fraction of Arthas' true being kept resisting the Lich King and was the thing that withheld him from unleashing hell upon the world, which in turn allowed us to lead our campaign and defeat him.

you bring up the book but are completly wrong about Arthas. He drove out his humanity at the end of the book, that wasn't why we beat him. He wanted us to beat all his forces so he could turn us into powerful deathknights.

As for Garrosh... he is a true Orc who proved twice that Orcs don't need demonic corruption to become rampaging killing machines

you mean where he used altereed visions of the future to convince the orcs that if they didnt act they would all be enslaved? Ignorance isn't an excuse read the Hellscream short story.

He easily rallied his people not just against the Alliance, but even against their own allies - to the extent Belves were negotiation going back into the Alliance. He then went to Draenor, dangled the carrot of conquest there and suddenly we had the Iron Horde ready to conquer us. "We will never be slaves, but we will be conquerors!" awesome.

please actually read up on a subject before making shitty assumptions or opinions that can be disproved after 5 minutes of reading.

[Thage]

Still not as bad as Warchief Potato. I kept waiting for him to declare war on the ocean for not being orcish enough.

[Trumpcat]

The Forsaken don't "butcher innocents to fuel undead ranks".
Don't come in here to spread some random nonsense.

I would ask for links to your accusations but I can already tell you that it's false.

Random nonsense? Do you know the story of Hillsbrad Foothills, Gilneas, have you played the quests pre/post Cataclysm? Should I link youtube videos of questing there, what kind of a response is that?

Go read the summary on the wiki pages to fill in your gaps, if you care about lore. If you don't then why bother arguing or will you deny the story Blizzard wrote for these zones and the events there?
Here about the Forsaken invasion on Hillsbrad: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hillsbrad_Foothills
Here on the Forsaken use of the plague: https://wow.gamepedia.com/New_Plague
Here on Gilneas: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Invasion_of_Gilneas

What else can I do, you are denying the story from happening and I meant to not reply since your previous post attacking me, but here. If the quests and the wiki pages summarizing the story is not good for you, what would be - I doubt Blizzard writers or Chris Metzen would come post saying "the Forsaken invaded those zones and slaughtered everyone and deployed the plague and the only survivors are the ones fled in a crafty exodus campaign." I mean, dude, that's the story, your Forsaken aren't good guys, Sylvanas less so, deal with it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Random nonsense? Do you know the story of Hillsbrad Foothills, Gilneas, have you played the quests pre/post Cataclysm? Should I link youtube videos of questing there, what kind of a response is that?

Go read the summary on the wiki pages to fill in your gaps, if you care about lore. If you don't then why bother arguing or will you deny the story Blizzard wrote for these zones and the events there?
Here about the Forsaken invasion on Hillsbrad: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hillsbrad_Foothills
Here on the Forsaken use of the plague: https://wow.gamepedia.com/New_Plague
Here on Gilneas: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Invasion_of_Gilneas

What else can I do, you are denying the story from happening and I meant to not reply since your previous post attacking me, but here. If the quests and the wiki pages summarizing the story is not good for you, what would be - I doubt Blizzard writers or Chris Metzen would come post saying "the Forsaken invaded those zones and slaughtered everyone and deployed the plague and the only survivors are the ones fled in a crafty exodus campaign." I mean, dude, that's the story, your Forsaken aren't good guys, Sylvanas less so, deal with it.

Hillsbrad isn't innocent, unless you want to really try to argue that fighting forsaken makes you innocent.

linking the article on the blight, really fancy but does nothing for your argument other than that you can use Wowpedia, good job.

What else can I do, you are denying the story from happening and I meant to not reply since your previous post attacking me, but here. If the quests and the wiki pages summarizing the story is not good for you, what would be - I doubt Blizzard writers or Chris Metzen would come post saying "the Forsaken invaded those zones and slaughtered everyone and deployed the plague and the only survivors are the ones fled in a crafty exodus campaign." I mean, dude, that's the story, your Forsaken aren't good guys, Sylvanas less so, deal with it.

The only invasion was into Gilnaes, and it was forced. The Blight is no more evil than the dozens of magical weapons used in wow. But remember, you can fight the forsaken for years, and when you lose you're still innocent /s

[Trumpcat]

Yes, you should link the video OR the quest showing us she kills innocent people just to ress them.


We're not talking about war.
Your claim was that she killed them just to resurrect them as undead.
Stop moving the goalpost.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken_trooper
Forsaken troopers consists of the freshly raised undead created by the necromantic powers of Sylvanas Windrunner's Val'kyr. The Forsaken Trooper serve as basic infantry, and have been raised from the fallen humans on the battlefield. Most recently, this new army "recruited" from the peoples of Silverpine and Hillsbrad.

Hillsbrad isn't innocent, unless you want to really try to argue that fighting forsaken makes you innocent.

linking the article on the blight, really fancy but does nothing for your argument other than that you can use Wowpedia, good job.


The only invasion was into Gilnaes, and it was forced. The Blight is no more evil than the dozens of magical weapons used in wow. But remember, you can fight the forsaken for years, and when you lose you're still innocent /s

What is wrong with linking the articles other than showing the game story contradicts with your made up one? I link the articles which describe the Forsaken invasion on Gilneas AND Hilsbrad and the usage of the undead plague and rising the fallen as new minions for Sylvanas. It's baffling how you even deny the Hillsbrad invasion, when it was literally drenched in the plague. And no, the villages weren't fighting the Forsaken for years in the means you imply - they were defending against them for years and ultimately fell due to the use of the plague. Major difference.

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh didn't want her using the plague in guilneas because he wanted to make a port there, you can't make a base for other horde forces if everything is toxic for then

[Friendlyimmolation]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken_trooper
Forsaken troopers consists of the freshly raised undead created by the necromantic powers of Sylvanas Windrunner's Val'kyr. The Forsaken Trooper serve as basic infantry, and have been raised from the fallen humans on the battlefield. Most recently, this new army "recruited" from the peoples of Silverpine and Hillsbrad.

And yet again your argument is either poorly constructed or you once again are misusing words. An enemy combatant for all purposes is not innocent, the only "innocent" people the forsaken raised were in the starting zone, and like all others are given a choice.

What is wrong with linking the articles other than showing the game story contradicts with your made up one?

If by contradiction you mean your constant misuse of the word invasion. Nothing you posted contradicts anything I said at all. The forsaken have been in hillsbrad since vanilla, they Killed the alliance there with the goal of strengthening their hold, not to raise them. You can't invade land you are already living on. As for Gilnaes yes they did invade, but either you are purposefully forgetting who started it, or just the fact that it was Garrosh's idea is too hard of a fact to remember, not to mention the Forsaken themselves had blight in their possession that was approved for use by the Horde. The blight, the one who injured the Lich King was banned, not weaker strains.

And no, the villages weren't fighting the Forsaken for years in the means you imply - they were defending against them for years and ultimately fell due to the use of the plague. Major difference.

you're right, fighting the forsaken, supporting the stormpikes and alliance no conflict with the alliance whatsoever. Also fighting and defending yourself are not mutually exclusive. And since we don't know who started the fighting in Hillsbrad the argument the forsaken were just defending themselvles from the Alliance holds as just much weight as you

[Ravingmad]

IMO she's awesome. Most Horde Chief are boring (Bairne, VolJin, Gallywix doesnt do anything, Lor'Themar was in the Throne of Thunder invasion but wasnt anything special but a good/wise Ranger). She's just a little Radical, but it fits her background story. Her story is IMO epic, she wanted to kill herself after the defeat of Arthas, then made a pact with the Valkyrs, etc. She always protected Silvermoon, her hometown (thats why they joinded the Horde). She's a badass fighter. And she knows how to make war and protect her people. She's been given the title of Warchief by VolJin, so I think he knew what he was doing, and with the situation I think he choose well.

I actually like her. Given the situation, she was the best suited to lead the horde with the Legion's invasion. I can't wait to see the story that will follow after the reunion of the Windrunner's sisters, and whats gonna come next (politics) after all is done/saved/etc.

[Mehrunes]

My biggest problem with Sylvanas as Warchief is it seems like the only reason she was chosen, and why Vol'jin was replaced was to force the faction conflict. It kinda makes sense if you look at it that way. Any other Horde character probably wouldn't go to war with the Alliance at this point, or it would require something even more contrived than the crap we already got to justify it.

Troll leader under Vol'jin's tenure as Warchief attacked the Alliance in Ashran. And Sylvanas isn't the one who attacked the other faction in Legion.

[Trumpcat]

And yet again your argument is either poorly constructed or you once again are misusing words. An enemy combatant for all purposes is not innocent, the only "innocent" people the forsaken raised were in the starting zone, and like all others are given a choice.


If by contradiction you mean your constant misuse of the word invasion. Nothing you posted contradicts anything I said at all. The forsaken have been in hillsbrad since vanilla, they Killed the alliance there with the goal of strengthening their hold, not to raise them. You can't invade land you are already living on. As for Gilnaes yes they did invade, but either you are purposefully forgetting who started it, or just the fact that it was Garrosh's idea is too hard of a fact to remember, not to mention the Forsaken themselves had blight in their possession that was approved for use by the Horde. The blight, the one who injured the Lich King was banned, not weaker strains.



you're right, fighting the forsaken, supporting the stormpikes and alliance no conflict with the alliance whatsoever. Also fighting and defending yourself are not mutually exclusive. And since we don't know who started the fighting in Hillsbrad the argument the forsaken were just defending themselvles from the Alliance holds as just much weight as you

So all in all, you support and justify the actions of the Forsaken and the employment of biological weapons, a weapon is a weapon. Anything to maintain your point, right?

And no, the articles do contradict with your attempts to put the Forsaken in a good light, as do the quests they summarize, you likely didn't read or straightforwardly ignore or dismiss. We could bring in quotes from quests like the Elixir of Pain, where your beloved monsters relish in the agony and suffering they cause to living beings.

In this story I defend life, fairness and order. You try to make my position invalid while pushing forward the part of the story that has always been written and presented as evil.

My use of words is exact as is my bringing of story facts against your delusions. Your attempts to excuse the Forsaken atrocities are just that - attempts.

[Kapaya]

So far she has done nothing nor has the horde done anything even though her becoming the Warchief was due to the Loa believing she would be needed in the darkest hours. For now it's all been Illidan, Maiev, Velen and Khadgar doing everything, which makes me believe that she'll have a major role in the next expansion which is surely going to deal with Old Gods.

It's a shame that the Horde leaders are just a shitshow right now, literally no one has done anything worthwile except Sylvanas and to some extent Lor'Themar who briefly had a role back in ToT, and Thrall who was the face of the Horde and Warcraft universe was just thrown aside after WoD.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So all in all, you support and justify the actions of the Forsaken and the employment of biological weapons, after all a weapon is a weapon. Anything to maintain your point, right?

to complain about chemical weapons in a game where both sides can call down giant ice storms, fire storms, rip peoples souls out, is hilarious.

And no, the articles do contradict with your attempts to put the Forsaken in a good light, as do the quests they summarize, you likely didn't read or straightforwardly ignore or dismiss. We could bring in quotes from quests like the Elixir of Pain, where your beloved monsters relish in the agony and suffering they cause to living beings.

Yet again you mistake your opinion with fact. None of the old quests in Hillsbrad nor the new one state the Forsaken attacked first, nor did they invade considering they lived there too.

In this story I defend life, fairness and order. You try to make my position invalid while pushing forward the part of the story that has always been written and presented as evil.

thats nice and all, but you can't change the fact that you don't have any proof that the Alliance forces were blameless, nor can you have your cake and eat it too by saying they are innocent, only defending themselves etc. Nor can you say the Forsaken are invaders when they already fucking lived there.

My use of words is exact as is my bringing of story facts against your delusions. Your attempts to excuse the Forsaken atrocities are just that - attempts.

so aside from making it clear you don't actually have any proof you immediately begin dishonest attempts to twist the words to fit your agenda, you have opinons and are entitled to them. But trying to push forth "facts" while posting articles that don't back up anything you have said at all is simply hilarious. The only place the Forsaken invaded was Gilnaes. You can count the Arathi Highlands too but that is as much Alliance as it is Horde territory.

[Mehrunes]

So all in all, you support and justify the actions of the Forsaken and the employment of biological weapons, a weapon is a weapon. Anything to maintain your point, right?

The Blight is a chemical weapon. And it's about as destructive as a bomb. So yeah, a weapon is a weapon.

And no, the articles do contradict with your attempts to put the Forsaken in a good light, as do the quests they summarize, you likely didn't read or straightforwardly ignore or dismiss. We could bring in quotes from quests like the Elixir of Pain, where your beloved monsters relish in the agony and suffering they cause to living beings.

Which specific argument of Friendly does the article about the Blight contradict, exactly?

In this story I defend life, fairness and order. You try to make my position invalid while pushing forward the part of the story that has always been written and presented as evil.

You defend fairness, yet flail around about Forsaken attacking their enemies in the war started by the Alliance. Fascinating.

My use of words is exact as is my bringing of story facts against your delusions. Your attempts to excuse the Forsaken atrocities are just that - attempts.

The same can be said by your amazing narrative of genocide in Gilneas or invasion of Hillsbrad.