Do you think a stat squish is needed?

[slickwilly]

Why exactly is a stat squish needed? How would you implement it?

You divide by 1000. Pretty simple.

[Echocho]

Care to explain why? Remember that iLvls won't change anyway.

How can you know that? They could change it so that every prior iLvl is now 1/2 an iLvl.

[Deleted]

Yes it is badly needed because right now numbers mean diddly squat. What's the difference in doing 3million and 4 million damage seriously? The numbers get so big it doesn't even matter any more. Hundreds and thousands the sweet spot , once we start hitting 5 digits it's gg and numbers can fuck right off. For me now there's not much reason to have numbers visible at all any more. I don't have them on my unit frames (just a %) and don't see dmg any more, it's just distracting.

I want the spells to hit for numbers in the 100s and have a HUGE crit break >1k.

[Volardelis]

Wasn't a very good one. (why so serious)

Only noobs who didn't get it say it was bad.

[huth]

You divide by 1000. Pretty simple.

You'd need to get to level 40 or so to get above 1 health then. Doesn't work. I don't think people would appreciate having to play rocket tag for the first 40 levels of the game.

How can you know that? They could change it so that every prior iLvl is now 1/2 an iLvl.

They didn't do it the first time, and it wouldn't serve any real purpose.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes it is badly needed because right now numbers mean diddly squat. What's the difference in doing 3million and 4 million damage seriously? The numbers get so big it doesn't even matter any more. Hundreds and thousands the sweet spot , once we start hitting 5 digits it's gg and numbers can fuck right off. For me now there's not much reason to have numbers visible at all any more. I don't have them on my unit frames (just a %) and don't see dmg any more, it's just distracting.

So you think a squish is badly needed even though it would have no effect on you?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Only noobs who didn't get it say it was bad.

I see YOU didnt get the joke this time. My heart is so broken. /winkieface (why so serious)

[Thage]

The only reason it was necessary last time is because WoW was limited by 32-bit systems at the time. The Garrosh fight reset his HP every phase because they literally couldn't program in a bigger number without breaking the game on 32-bit systems, but still needed the fight to be challenging for the target demographic in each difficulty (and quickly melting his health bar in Phases 1 and 2 wouldn't make for much of a fight, even on LFR). WoW doesn't officially support 32-bit systems anymore, so they're not as constrained with numbers as they were.

That being said, I would like to see things get squished down eventually. Perhaps every 2-3 expansions, smooth out the item level curve in previous expansions so it feels more linear and even while leveling up while keeping the feeling of notable power increases at endgame. But it isn't really a must-have situation like it was between MoP and WoD, just a 'I think this would feel better from a gameplay perspective' thing.

[TheVaryag]

With talk of the next expansion starting to float around do you think another stat squish is needed?

If so please explain how and why you think it would work.

I mean, what's the average HP level of you and the mobs you're attacking? Lets use Broken Shore for this example, and this Is post-patch where they fixed that Implementation of mobs scaling to ilevel, and by fix I mean removed and will hopefully never do that again unless they want to see WoW burn.

We have roughly: 2 mil, 886k HP (My own char, roughly 870 ilevel)
Mobs have roughly: 900k-2 mil HP depending on the mob (Broken Shore mobs)

And I'll use another game and It's expansions as an example, SW:TOR In this case just cause I'm more familiar with It, top level there was 50, then after 4 expansions we're lvl 70. (Which makes me like the Idea of WoW expansions giving us 5 levels, but not really, to be explained below)

We have roughly: 111k HP (Using my own char as an example ofc, rating 234 gear for the most part, swtor's version of ilevel, sith assassin)
Mobs have roughly: 25k HP (That's In SWTOR's latest patch daily zone, Iokath and the mobs die fairly quickly, 3-5 hits, also remember SWTOR does scaling In many places which Is really bad, but not In the case of endgame areas, which Is good)

Don't get me wrong, I hate SW:TOR a lot, the PvEing Is non existant, no new raids come out as frequently as WoW's raids, dungeons the same deal, we're just re-using older dungeons for the most part. Just imagine If we had Timewalking -always- and that was your endgame, Mythic Timewalking the same old dungeons we had during the first few expansions, so that'd be mostly 1-60 dungeons, yeah pretty bad. Even PvPing Is not that better, but I do mostly PvPing and RPing there myself, as free 2 play naturally, It's the worst F2P model In the world but cause I was a sub for so long, I don't need much else and can stay F2P)


You see the difference In HP? Please correct me If I'm wrong, wasn't our top HP In TBC like 10k? Or like 9k? And that was for tanks I believe, do correct me It's been 10 years after all.

SWTOR had 4 expansions, most of which pretty bad ones, especially the last two ones which might as well have been a separate game, aka KOTOR 3 and It'd have been much better as a singleplayer game unattached to SWTOR, we're up to level 70 now.

WoW has had 6 expansions, with the current being Legion, we're up to level 110 now

In swtor we kept the numbers pretty low, and somehow It still worked didn't It? So I feel that proves WoW doesn't need to bring the numbers up to a million that's just obsurd, some of my enjoyment from SW:TOR comes from the numbers being that low, knowing I'm doing 2 mil crit In WoW just feels... whatever. But knowing I'm doing like 12k crit In SW:TOR feels trully amazing, as the number Isn't that high. Once the numbers reach like 250k+ It starts to feel boring, like the numbers and stats dont' matter and that's one of WoW's current problems.

Now to explain what I mentioned above, why SW:TOR had 5 levels per expansion and seems to have worked fine (With numbers, the expansions are completely bullship to be honest in other aspects but that's not the point here) whilst WoW gave us 10 levels at first, then 5 levels and again 10 levels In the past two expansions, not really being sure which to do It seems.

In one way, that's better as we get to experience the leveling zones more lower, soak In the lands, the quests and the lore. However, In WoW cataclysm first Introduced 5 new levels, It felt fine. I felt like we still experienced the zones perfectly well, the quests got better than In TBC and Wrath, obviously. Despite me hating Cataclysm expansion In general, the quests did Improve significantly. I still enjoyed my time In Uldum commanding those cat-whatever creatures, In like an RTS-style quest, and then flying with that Tomb Raider guy in the back of a bi-plane, shooting down Incoming guys with a targetting reticule, which obviously wasn't that precice but you know, MMO. I liked the quests there than anywhere else In the 80-85 cataclysm zones.

So If the experience Is the same, and even better when given 5 levels per expansion, why not do that? I mean leveling Is half the fun, It should be anyway, and Blizzard have forgotten that, leveling Is just like a barrier to entry Into the endgame, thinking endgame -is- the game, which It's not. Leveling Is part of the fun, but It's been made so uninteresting In Legion and just the latest expansions people hate It, but I remember as leveling being something great.

So I feel they should make leveling more Interesting, again, not have It be like a "Well you gotta level and THEN the game begins" like no, let the zones have 5 levels, and that will also give the advantage of not ever meeting mobs that are too high level for you, as you'll always meet mobs roughly the same level as you.

[huth]

I mean, what's the average HP level of you and the mobs you're attacking? Lets use Broken Shore for this example, and this Is post-patch where they fixed that Implementation of mobs scaling to ilevel, and by fix I mean removed and will hopefully never do that again unless they want to see WoW burn.

They only removed the damage scaling. The health scaling is still there, and clearly subtle enough that you don't immediately notice.

[anveena]

No. They need to do away with itemlevel inflation. Go back to when you gained 100 itemlevels over the course of an expansion.

[Kelathos]

No, it sucked the first time and it'll suck the next time. Stop being so scared of big damage numbers.

At 25x growth per expansion, the current rate of climb looks like this:

6.X: 100 thousand dps
7.X: 2.5 million dps
8.X: 62 million dps
9.X: 1.5 BILLION dps

It's going to be a problem.

[Trumpcat]

We are dealing in millions and billions again, a stat squish is very needed. But it should be handled much smarter than last time when the number inflation and bad ratios caught up in just one expansion.

We have rings and necks now with thousands of stat rating, but due to insane ratios and caps the 3000 Mastery and 2000 Crit ring you just got from Kil'jaden could be so bad for you that you are seeing better results with your 1500 Haste, 1800 Vers ring from the previous raid tier. (Made up numbers, just to illustrate the point)

Getting gear with such a high useful/useless volatility is unrewarding as is seeing your frames unable to contain the boss health.

[Otaka]

No, breaks more than it solves, makes you feel like they nerfed you for a good week or more after, and more than anything, its not needed.

Sure when they had numbers issues back in MoP it was, but they bypassed that, no where near that ceiling now. If you don't like 3,000,000 there's way's to change it to 3M or 3000k if you really feel like it.

That has nothing to do with the problem the game has.... it doesnt matter what we see, but the more numbers there are ingame the processors and servers and addons and everything that uses those numbers to calculate are getting bogged down because of the amount of numbers they have to process.

Stat squish is done to reduce the strain on hardware, if it isnt done then the servers will lag significantly more in large scale engagements like they used to back in vanilla when the technology wasnt as advanced. The servers back then were not capable of calculating hundreds of players in the same area so it resulted in huge lag... AQ40 opening was a good example.
These days however if we had the same numbers as back then with the server tech blizz has now, AQ40 opening would not be a problem lagwise.

Its only blizzard's own fault for needing stat squish... they could just go up in stats in a relative manner but instead they chose to do it in an explosive manner which is stupid.
Compare health numbers: vanilla max level average 3k+, tbc 10k+, wotlk 25k+, cataclysm 150k+, pandaria 500k+, wod 1m+, legion 3m+
something like that... cant be sure of cata and pandaria since its been a while and didnt really care anymore about numbers at that point since they were so ridiculous.

A better way of doing those numbers would have been: 3k+, 10k+, 20k+, 40k+, 60k+, 80k+, 100k+. See? looks alot better and in the end you never need a squish and the world pvp would be much better since you arent at a 90% disadvantage in health (if being ganked)... a level 100 has like less health than what a 110 can crit on average, and thats absolutely stupid, it makes ganking easier than it has ever been before.

The good part about the good old days was that if you ganged up on a higher level person as a group of lowbies you could take them down... but then again these days everyone has selfheals so it wouldnt be possible even with better numbers. (and the problem is the same with ilevel, a group of 850 ilevel players cant take down a 950 ilevel person... its just not going to happen, the 950 guy will rekt them quite easily... thats one reason why pvp these days is template-based)

I remember being a level 55 warrior killing 35-40 level people around SM at some point in my life and one time they ganged up on me and it was 1v5 and they actually took me down with teamwork, healing and kiting and dpsing... was funny, but memories like these do not exist anymore and will never exist again.

[Sansnom]

With talk of the next expansion starting to float around do you think another stat squish is needed?

If so please explain how and why you think it would work.

Yes. Numbers gets way to high.

But that is not the main problem. Blizzard needs to scale the level better otherwise it would just repeat itself. Again.

[Nurvus]

We don't need another stat squish.
We need the first and only stat squish to affect all content, forever.
Stats shouldn't grow exponentially like they do after 90. It serves no real purpose. Acquiring gear isn't any more "fun" because of exponential stat growth.
Lots of mechanics clash with exponential stat growth, specially zone scaling in Legion that makes world pvp while leveling absolutely disgusting.

[Aeula]

At 25x growth per expansion, the current rate of climb looks like this:

6.X: 100 thousand dps
7.X: 2.5 million dps
8.X: 62 million dps
9.X: 1.5 BILLION dps

It's going to be a problem.

Not if the engine can handle it.

[Beckers]

Except the whole lag issue across like a hundred or so servers using 6-9 digit numbers instead 4-6 digit numbers, also bosses with almost 5b health is getting a bit ridiculous.

I do like the real progression feel instead of permanently being in a vacuum and never extending to the 10b stage, but the cons outweigh the pros if we just keep letting numbers get higher.

Or, y'know, Blizzard could upgrade the server blades and stop spilling coffee on them.

Why does boss health number bother you? Who cares? As long as you have a group woth enough DPS to bring it to 0, why bother thinking about the actual number itself..

[SinR]

the item level gains between expansions up to MOP needs to be cut back to a much more linear curve without so many sudden leaps up. couple that with an item stat squish AND the aforementioned item level squish between MOP/Warlords and Warlords/Legion and the system can survive a few more expansions, barring Blizzard fucking it up again and going full retard with stats AGAIN.

[kendro1200]

the item level gains between expansions up to MOP needs to be cut back to a much more linear curve without so many sudden leaps up. couple that with an item stat squish AND the aforementioned item level squish between MOP/Warlords and Warlords/Legion and the system can survive a few more expansions, barring Blizzard fucking it up again and going full retard with stats AGAIN.

The problem is that Blizzard's current WoW team has no idea on how to do meaningful progression inside an expansion without absurd stat growth, that has gotten worse as the game goes on, because they keep removing various interacting stats. Not to mention their need to invalidate an entire expansion of progress within a few levels in the following expansion. Vanilla to BC handled item levels and character progression very well. Those who were lucky enough to get a substantial mix of T3 and some T2 if not full T3, were starting Kara in that gear.
Personal preference wise, I actually prefer not getting upgrades every couple of levels when leveling up in an expansion. I hate having to look through the gear every couple of hours and trying to figure out if the new piece of gear is an upgrade or not, or debating when it is worth it to keep a set bonus. I like just sharding/vendoring the quest gear and then start considering new gear when I'm at the level cap.

[Deleted]

So you think a squish is badly needed even though it would have no effect on you?

Why wouldn't it have an effect on me? It would have a big effect because suddenly numbers would matter again and I could pay attention to them instead of ignoring them.