World of Casualcraft: "Badass" vs "nolifer"

[Zenfoldor]

Oh god yes. Yees!! Players are bad and they should feel bad, but I'm so good. So good. It's not even hard to be this good, it just looks hard to casual retards.

I had began to think that it was my brain which was so dominant, but after reading this thread I realize there are others like me.

ETA: Not everyone agrees, but you can read the thread in the mage forums. If you want a spec that does well without a hard rotation or high lego requirements, try frost mage.

[WskyDK]

WoW isn't the game to measure your dick with.

[Enkrypt]

Define 'lots'. Because that wasn't true in Vanilla.

Well, if you understand that your experience was limited to what ever server(s) you played on, accepting that your perspective is limited to that, it could be true. I understand that on my server, in my guild, it was not that uncommon for a guild to have cleared BWL. We had multiple tanks with Thunderfury, multiple Shamans with Sulfuras, and more than 75% of our raid team (I actually still have the docs from our website spreadsheet) had full Tier 2.

To correct you, it wasn't true in your experience. BWL was by no means hard to clear towards the end of Vanilla. Hell, there were two whole raids that succeeded it. Now if you had said Naxxramas and AQ40? I'd agree. BWL? Nah.

In your defense, I'll say that this is only from my perspective. The server(s) you played on and tracked may have been complete dogshit in terms of raiding. *shrug*

[Toppy]

Tier 2 wasn't that hard to get. Lots of guilds were clearing BWL at the time. I had the complete set and I was faaaaar from a no-lifer. Tier 3? Yeah, maybe a no-lifer.

I agree, it wasn't completely about skill, because the logistics of getting a 40-man raid together was just soul-crushing, but there was definitely skill involved. Not many guilds had 40 players that were skilled enough to do Naxxramas, despite its short lifespan.

I'd say it was 60% getting the raid together, and 40% execution(skill). I suppose this is highly subjective, depending on the guild you were in, too.

Depends on when you're thinking, it took awhile for guilds to be commonly farming BWL, it didnt become common place until the troll and bug raids (IE: catch up mechanics).

Even then the mechanics were simple and the gameplay simpler. It was almost all gear.

[D4NNYB0Y]

I remember...

You were a child. People who play videogames all day long are not badasses. People who find happiness and success in their real, adult lives are badasses.

Also, action heroes.

[Toppy]

Well, if you understand that your experience was limited to what ever server(s) you played on, accepting that your perspective is limited to that, it could be true. I understand that on my server, in my guild, it was not that uncommon for a guild to have cleared BWL. We had multiple tanks with Thunderfury, multiple Shamans with Sulfuras, and more than 75% of our raid team (I actually still have the docs from our website spreadsheet) had full Tier 2.

To correct you, it wasn't true in your experience. BWL was by no means hard to clear towards the end of Vanilla. Hell, there were two whole raids that succeeded it. Now if you had said Naxxramas and AQ40? I'd agree. BWL? Nah.

In your defense, I'll say that this is only from my perspective. The server(s) you played on and tracked may have been complete dogshit in terms of raiding. *shrug*

"People were raiding BWL a lot at the end of vanilla"

Yeah no shit.

And stop with the passive aggressive "shrug" crap. Don't talk down to people just because you can't tell why progression might be different months after a raid releases.

[Kyanion]

Well, if you understand that your experience was limited to what ever server(s) you played on, accepting that your perspective is limited to that, it could be true.

Except I'm not talking about that. I am talking about what Blizz has said about raid participation in Vanilla. It was lower by percentage of the playerbase than any expansion. Thus, this means the most casuals by percentage was in *gasp* Vanilla.

To correct YOU, you are the one trying to project your personal experiences into this as if it fucking matters.

- - - Updated - - -

"People were raiding BWL a lot at the end of vanilla"

Yeah no shit.

And stop with the passive aggressive "shrug" crap. Don't talk down to people just because you can't tell why progression might be different months after a raid releases.

I mean I get his attempted talking down as if he knows what I did or did not do in Vanilla. It was pretty comical really. The thing was people WEREN'T raiding BWL a lot at the end of vanilla. Most people weren't raiding ANYTHING. Hell I'd say one of the more popular activities in the last few months of Vanilla was people farming honor for max rank weapons to use for TBC.

[vertigo12]

Or better yet forget old world and let's head straight to Outland! Samething happened from BT to WotLK. Forget Outland and head to Northrend!

[Khallid]

Oh man, what a thread.

How do people subjectively judge other people based on their game exploits?

Well... they do it subjectively... duh. If someone has something that you want to have, then he might be badass in comparison to you. If someone has hundreds of pets and mounts and achievements and you happen to not care about any of them, then you will consider them a no-lifer.

The is no objective truth about how people subjectively judge other people.

[Vaerys]

Its time to put this bullshit argument to rest.

I volunteer as tribute on behalf of the damn dirty casual.

Are premades available on PTR?

Or is there any Mythic Raider confident in his account security to lend account info for a test run?

What are we looking for? We're looking for a performance disparity of nearly 700k, in exact gear/talents/AP etc. For those bad at math 1.2m - 500k = 700k.

The indignation on display here suggests a level of motivation that the semi-afk "doesn't give a fuck" guys simply don't have.

[Enkrypt]

"People were raiding BWL a lot at the end of vanilla"

Yeah no shit.

And stop with the passive aggressive "shrug" crap. Don't talk down to people just because you can't tell why progression might be different months after a raid releases.

Okay, guy. You keep pretending to control other people, and I'll keep doing what I want. *shrug* No difference to me, get upset if you're that easily triggered.

Have a blessed day.

Except I'm not talking about that. I am talking about what Blizz has said about raid participation in Vanilla. It was lower by percentage of the playerbase than any expansion. Thus, this means the most casuals by percentage was in *gasp* Vanilla.

To correct YOU, you are the one trying to project your personal experiences into this as if it fucking matters.

Okay, so I can tell you're a little upset, too. You think guilds didn't clear BWL much yet in my experience they did. So it does matter, just as much as your opinion matters, because you've posted nothing else but your anecdotal evidence, too. You never once said you were using Blizzard's data until the post I just quoted. So next time try to explain your point more clearly if you're going to be this frail.

So to correct you a second time, in a discussion of my experience versus your experience, it does fucking matter.

I'm gonna leave you boys to your little heated debate here. Have fun getting angry about video games!

Bye.

[Sansnom]

It's a game for them and thats okay, but even if it's a game, the natural sense of improving should still apply.

To them it is a game. They just want to spend time doing something fun.

To you, it is hobby. You are prepared to dedicate more time to improving your craft.

That is the difference. People are different.

[Enkrypt]

I mean I get his attempted talking down as if he knows what I did or did not do in Vanilla. It was pretty comical really. The thing was people WEREN'T raiding BWL a lot at the end of vanilla. Most people weren't raiding ANYTHING. Hell I'd say one of the more popular activities in the last few months of Vanilla was people farming honor for max rank weapons to use for TBC.

^^ Pure, anecdotal speculation that has no truth or merit. And this guy tells me my experience doesn't matter, yet his is used to back his argument. Wow. The people on this forum are very special. "Most people" this "most people" that... yeah, sure thing. Real hard facts there, friend.

PS: Just couldn't resist this gem of a hypocrite. Trust me, I'm the one over here laughing. You have no idea how comical this is for me.

[MoanaLisa]

I don't do labels like that. There are great players who only play a few hours a week and not-so-great players who play all the time.

As long as everyone is having a good time that's fine. The point of the game is to have fun. As much as some like to stretch their egos about it PVE is not really about that. World of Warcraft isn't some life test of competence. Nor is it a job that you need to necessarily get good at.

[Arnoux]

You whine like a bitch.

Maybe these casuals are very good at their jobs and earn great money. Do you have a great job? Are you better than your collegues? Maybe they have a couple of kids. How many kids do you have to take care of? Maybe none of them and they are the exact same customers as you and have every right to have fun with the service they are paying money for as they wish.

[A dot Ham]

The indignation on display here suggests a level of motivation that the semi-afk "doesn't give a fuck" guys simply don't have.

Touche'

I guess where I start to get defensive, is that certain (not all *because I believe the majority of mythic raiders just don't care what us plebeians are doing*) mythic raiders seem to think that 40+ difference in ilvl means nothing. Or that even a casual LFR player that may be encroaching upon a 910 ilvl would perform at the same level as the mythic player in 910 gear. It isn't the case, as they don't have the same trinkets at set bonuses that the Mythic player was working with at 910.

These are basic allowances or concessions or rationalizations that a person playing/strategizing at the highest level of gameplay should be able to come to. Not to mention that many mythic players are not satisfied with the set bonuses of ToS. Meaning 910 ToS in theory if we are simply going off of player feedback is less desirable than 910 NH, as 910 NH (by reports) has better performance.

I mean you/OP doesn't honestly believe that people like sucking? Nobody jumps into any game and says "I'm gonna be as bad as I can be..." If I could pull 1.2 million dps simply because I will it... then I fucking will it... I WILL IT! I hereby denounce my devotion to the church of suck... and pledge myself to the benevolence of "get gud"

Also lets not pretend like there isn't complete and utter disdain for the unclean casual. I myself decided maybe this was the xpac to get back into organized raiding... only to find that when I asked for help on my dps/rotation I was met with nothing but negativity from THIS community.

I was able to bring up logs from a Mythic player on the same fight, and show that ability for ability I managed to hit the exact number of abilities I was doing half the dps. My shitty barely minimum ilvl lack of decent or appropriate legendaries, I was clearly doing something wrong... and it was up to me to find... or I'm just bad.

[Vaerys]

Touche'

I guess where I start to get defensive, is that certain (not all *because I believe the majority of mythic raiders just don't care what us plebeians are doing*) mythic raiders seem to think that 40+ difference in ilvl means nothing. Or that even a casual LFR player that may be encroaching upon a 910 ilvl would perform at the same level as the mythic player in 910 gear. It isn't the case, as they don't have the same trinkets at set bonuses that the Mythic player was working with at 910.

These are basic allowances or concessions or rationalizations that a person playing/strategizing at the highest level of gameplay should be able to come to. Not to mention that many mythic players are not satisfied with the set bonuses of ToS. Meaning 910 ToS in theory if we are simply going off of player feedback is less desirable than 910 NH, as 910 NH (by reports) has better performance.

I mean you/OP doesn't honestly believe that people like sucking? Nobody jumps into any game and says "I'm gonna be as bad as I can be..." If I could pull 1.2 million dps simply because I will it... then I fucking will it... I WILL IT! I hereby denounce my devotion to the church of suck... and pledge myself to the benevolence of "get gud"

Also lets not pretend like there isn't complete and utter disdain for the unclean casual. I myself decided maybe this was the xpac to get back into organized raiding... only to find that when I asked for help on my dps/rotation I was met with nothing but negativity from THIS community.

I was able to bring up logs from a Mythic player on the same fight, and show that ability for ability I managed to hit the exact number of abilities I was doing half the dps. My shitty barely minimum ilvl lack of decent or appropriate legendaries, I was clearly doing something wrong... and it was up to me to find... or I'm just bad.

Raw DPS is the wrong measure for performance when there is a disparity in gear. When you look at warcraftlogs, if you use the 'by item level' option you will get comparisons to other people with similar gear levels with whom to compare yourself. Sure, this can be skewed by legendary availability, set bonuses, or using uncommonly strong low item level trinkets like Unstable Arcanocrystal or Bloodthirsty Instinct.

Still, though, if you are getting grey parses within your item level bracket without dying, there is probably a serious issue with talent selection, resource management, cooldowns, or inability to execute a rotation while simultaneously handling mechanics. These are the types of things that go chronically unaddressed within the casual raiding community, but which are not tolerated at higher levels of play.

Nobody plays with the intent to be bad, but it is very common for people to be unaware of just how much improvement could be had. And even if they were made aware, such as being trounced on meters by somebody's undergeared alt, they may be unwilling to put forth the effort to optimize performance, even if they have the skill. There are a whole lot of people who do not read forums, don't look at logs, don't sim anything, pick talents that sound cool, and just wear whatever piece is the highest item level. To some of these people, doing more than this is "turning a game into a job"

[Eazy]

When was that, last month?

That comment wins this thread.

OT:
I don't talk with them, when I see that they're struggling but they're trying I'm usually explaining them how to get better. That's all... and I'm mostly raiding with my guild, who are experienced and pretty well players.

[A dot Ham]

Nobody plays with the intent to be bad, but it is very common for people to be unaware of just how much improvement could be had. And even if they were made aware, such as being trounced on meters by somebody's undergeared alt, they may be unwilling to put forth the effort to optimize performance, even if they have the skill. There are a whole lot of people who do not read forums, don't look at logs, don't sim anything, pick talents that sound cool, and just wear whatever piece is the highest item level. To some of these people, doing more than this is "turning a game into a job"

To be fair though... coming from someone who was fairly serious about raiding... has been casual for long time... and has considered committing to a raid regiment.

Those things do take some effort, and if you have limited time to play... the last thing you want to be doing is this kind of maintenance. There are times when I feel simple things like clearing my bags is just a huge chore... I mean jesus christ you kill one mob from a warden WQ, and he drops AP, green boe, purple bop, rep token, and vendor trash... that doesn't include the rewards from completing the WQ. I mean fuck... now I have click the AP to get the points, vendor or AH the boe, check sims to make sure the bop isn't an upgrade, vendor or equip, vendor the trash drop... I just want to play the damn game. So I totally get not wanting to be bothered... and if we are looking at it objectively... they might have a point.

Personally I feel like EVERYTHING you could ever need to perform at the highest level should be made available by blizzard, either in game, or through their website resources. Blizzard should be the first and LAST stop for all things Warcraft... PERIOD. But I've felt like that since vanilla, and its not likely to change now... or ever.

[Kyanion]

Okay, so I can tell you're a little upset, too. You think guilds didn't clear BWL much yet in my experience they did. So it does matter, just as much as your opinion matters, because you've posted nothing else but your anecdotal evidence, too. You never once said you were using Blizzard's data until the post I just quoted. So next time try to explain your point more clearly if you're going to be this frail.

So to correct you a second time, in a discussion of my experience versus your experience, it does fucking matter.

I'm gonna leave you boys to your little heated debate here. Have fun getting angry about video games!

Bye.

Nice attempts at trying to assume I am 'upset' because what I say does not mesh with what you say. Of course there were some guilds that raided and cleared content. It is just no where near as many as you seem to think it is.

But whatever, run along and live in ignorance, I'm fine with that.

- - - Updated - - -

^^ Pure, anecdotal speculation that has no truth or merit. And this guy tells me my experience doesn't matter, yet his is used to back his argument. Wow. The people on this forum are very special. "Most people" this "most people" that... yeah, sure thing. Real hard facts there, friend.

PS: Just couldn't resist this gem of a hypocrite. Trust me, I'm the one over here laughing. You have no idea how comical this is for me.

Well you leaving lasted all of what, 1 post? My game experiences do not matter. Yours do not matter. What DOES matter is what Blizz has stated on the issue. Go look it up if you want, I don't really care.