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  1. #41
    Deleted
    well have fun farming titanforged CoF then (unless they nerf it)

  2. #42
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    They're nerfing it, they said it in an interview last month. It's a pretty safe assumption that CoF won't be too viable in T21.

    How is the 2pc now with it fixed? I saw you streaming with it and from my personal testing on a dummy last week it seemed kind of weak. The 4pc looked really strong, is it still at the same damage as it was or is it lower now, and does it still cleave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  3. #43
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Doesn't matter. It says "damage increased by..." so if it's 150% (as tooltip says) then it hits for 2.5 times the normal damage, if it's 250% as Archi says then it hits for 3.5 times the normal damage.

    This is nuts for aoe/m+, I'm really looking forward to it !
    Actually it does matter, since 150% multiplicative is less than 150% additive damage.

    Edit: And I don't trust Blizzard with the simple "damage increased by...". In Diablo 3 this can stand for additive or multiplicative.

    And to give credit to Archi: In case we expected it to be 150% multiplicative a 250% dmg increase would be a bug.
    But 150% additive would end up in 250% dmg for Rampage with 4pc T21.
    So I wanted to know if Archi expected it to be additive or multiplicative and what side of the numbers are a bug.
    Because if the 250% on PTR are additive they would come out of nowhere. But Archi didn't say if these numbers experienced on the PTR are additive or multiplicative.
    Last edited by mmoc4d7dc43b7a; 2017-08-02 at 09:03 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiowas View Post
    Actually it does matter, since 150% multiplicative is less than 150% additive damage.

    Edit: And I don't trust Blizzard with the simple "damage increased by...". In Diablo 3 this can stand for additive or multiplicative.

    And to give credit to Archi: In case we expected it to be 150% multiplicative a 250% dmg increase would be a bug.
    But 150% additive would end up in 250% dmg for Rampage with 4pc T21.
    So I wanted to know if Archi expected it to be additive or multiplicative and what side of the numbers are a bug.
    Because if the 250% on PTR are additive they would come out of nowhere. But Archi didn't say if these numbers experienced on the PTR are additive or multiplicative.
    I see what you mean but with this wording (same as Inner Rage) it's additive.
    If they wanted to say multiply damage by 1.5 (so multiplicative) they would have used a wording like "increases damage by 50%" not 150%.

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    I see what you mean but with this wording (same as Inner Rage) it's additive.
    If they wanted to say multiply damage by 1.5 (so multiplicative) they would have used a wording like "increases damage by 50%" not 150%.
    You are probably right.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiowas View Post
    Actually it does matter, since 150% multiplicative is less than 150% additive damage.

    Edit: And I don't trust Blizzard with the simple "damage increased by...". In Diablo 3 this can stand for additive or multiplicative.

    And to give credit to Archi: In case we expected it to be 150% multiplicative a 250% dmg increase would be a bug.
    But 150% additive would end up in 250% dmg for Rampage with 4pc T21.
    So I wanted to know if Archi expected it to be additive or multiplicative and what side of the numbers are a bug.
    Because if the 250% on PTR are additive they would come out of nowhere. But Archi didn't say if these numbers experienced on the PTR are additive or multiplicative.
    When I say it's doing 250%, I mean it's doing 3.5x the damage of Rampage without Outrage (the 4p buff). This would be consistent with similar effects found on tier bonuses and the artifact tree; for example, the talent Inner Rage, which increases RB damage by 150%, multiplies the damage of RB by 2.5. In actuality, the average I see is higher than 250%, more like 260-280%, but I've rounded for the sake of simplicity and because damage range is a thing; I'm not too concerned with the exact number at this stage in the testing process.

    As far as I know, just about all separate sources of damage increase in WoW are multiplicative, while the few additive bonuses are those which directly increase an existing effect (ex: the artifact trait Raging Berserker is additive with Enrage; at 4 points it doesn't multiply your damage while enraged by an extra 1.04%, it simply increases your existing Enrage damage bonus by +4%), as well as effects which increase chance to hit/crit (Furious Slash/Taste for Blood's 15% increased chance to crit is additive). I'm sure there are likely a few other effects which fall outside of this rule, but I expect they'll have differently worded tooltips anyway. The fact that most buffs are multiplicative is actually the reason stacking cooldowns is so extravagantly powerful in the first place; it becomes exponential, and the stronger (or more) cooldowns you have, the higher your burst, and therefore the weaker you need to be outside of cooldowns to remain balanced.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    When I say it's doing 250%, I mean it's doing 3.5x the damage of Rampage without Outrage (the 4p buff). This would be consistent with similar effects found on tier bonuses and the artifact tree; for example, the talent Inner Rage, which increases RB damage by 150%, multiplies the damage of RB by 2.5. In actuality, the average I see is higher than 250%, more like 260-280%, but I've rounded for the sake of simplicity and because damage range is a thing; I'm not too concerned with the exact number at this stage in the testing process.
    That is what I was looking for.
    Thanks.

  8. #48
    Fury 4pc changed to "Rampage is increased by 75% for 8 sec."
    Could be their way of trying to fix the rampage clipping pre battle cry bug if it was still around. I guess this would be about the same damage on average as old bc and maybe sometimes a minor buff when you do clip with rampage at start and some times a little at end of battle cry?

  9. #49
    I feel like the second rampage only fully hits inside battle cry if you got an oathblood proc or odyns glory when you used OF. If you even get a second one.

  10. #50
    With helm and pants you can easily fit 2 but I guess if were going to use the ring than bloodbath can easily fit in two from 3 RB crits between the two rampages. And from hitting the dummy a while I feel like bloodbath will be the way to go next tier generally unless I'm doing something wrong with inner rage.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolwasabi View Post
    Fury 4pc changed to "Rampage is increased by 75% for 8 sec."
    Could be their way of trying to fix the rampage clipping pre battle cry bug if it was still around. I guess this would be about the same damage on average as old bc and maybe sometimes a minor buff when you do clip with rampage at start and some times a little at end of battle cry?
    Doubt that it's intended to fix that minor interaction, so much as it's intended to spread out the tier bonuses burst into multiple hits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolwasabi View Post
    With helm and pants you can easily fit 2 but I guess if were going to use the ring than bloodbath can easily fit in two from 3 RB crits between the two rampages. And from hitting the dummy a while I feel like bloodbath will be the way to go next tier generally unless I'm doing something wrong with inner rage.
    Two Rampages can easily be used during Battle Cry with either Helm or Pants. With both, you can borderline three, though a haste buff will likely be needed to fit everything completely.

  12. #52
    Deleted
    I am still wondering why we favor the pants over the helmet with T21.

    Sure, two out of 5 hits generate more rage than the helmet itself, but with our low critrating it is not guaranteed to hit more than one critical strike.
    And the pants don't generate bonus rage in case we get a critical BT.
    And with the lower BC uptime due to the CoF-replacement I don't see why we should favor the pants.

    But I guess we want to skip as many BTs in the execute phase with T21 and try to maximize the rage gain with rampage and RB?
    So what generates more rage on average? Pants + Ring or Helmet + Ring?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiowas View Post
    I am still wondering why we favor the pants over the helmet with T21.

    Sure, two out of 5 hits generate more rage than the helmet itself, but with our low critrating it is not guaranteed to hit more than one critical strike.
    And the pants don't generate bonus rage in case we get a critical BT.
    And with the lower BC uptime due to the CoF-replacement I don't see why we should favor the pants.

    But I guess we want to skip as many BTs in the execute phase with T21 and try to maximize the rage gain with rampage and RB?
    So what generates more rage on average? Pants + Ring or Helmet + Ring?
    Previously, just because the Tier helm is better itemized than the tier pants.
    After this change, also because the legs greatly enhance the chance of getting a second (rarely third) Rampage inside Battle Cry, which the helm won't do, especially on multi-target.

    Tangentially, with ~20% crit there's a:
    • 67.2% chance of getting at least one tick of Rampage to crit
    • 26.2% chance of at least two ticks critting
    • 5.7% chance of at least three ticks
    • 0.67% chance of at least four ticks
    • 0.032% chance for all five ticks.
    Certainly doesn't sound like much, but it adds up over time.

    Overall, the Legs and Helm are very similar, and it usually does simply come down to the stats. Roughly the same number of Enrage procs come from Rampage as Bloodthirst; when using both the Legs and the Helm, the Helm accounts for ~13% of total rage generation, while the Legs account for about 14%, however, roughly 14% of that rage generated via the Helm is wasted (exceeds the 100 rage cap), while only about 1% of the rage generated from the Legs is (due to chaining Rampage->BC->Rampage).

    Ultimately, you can wear either/or and be completely fine; with T21 or on multi-target, I'll give a slight edge to Legs, due to the aforementioned chaining of Rampage, but it's only just slight.

  14. #54
    Deleted
    Thank you for the reply Archi.

    I didn't think about the obvious potential for wasted rage from BT at all.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Two Rampages can easily be used during Battle Cry with either Helm or Pants. With both, you can borderline three, though a haste buff will likely be needed to fit everything completely.
    If odyn's fury procs rage than its easy but when that doesn't happen 1-3 rampage ticks are likely to fall outside of battle cry even with 36% haste with Inner rage. Unless the idea is to rampage before waiting for 100 rage just to make sure it fits in.

    Some other new interactions would be in most cases less rampage cleave damage during battle cry in aoe situations compared to the old version, and during execute, more buffed rampages could be fit in compared to the old, though I don't know if that is worth doing.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolwasabi View Post
    If odyn's fury procs rage than its easy but when that doesn't happen 1-3 rampage ticks are likely to fall outside of battle cry even with 36% haste with Inner rage. Unless the idea is to rampage before waiting for 100 rage just to make sure it fits in.

    Some other new interactions would be in most cases less rampage cleave damage during battle cry in aoe situations compared to the old version, and during execute, more buffed rampages could be fit in compared to the old, though I don't know if that is worth doing.
    "Easy" is a stretch, it's not even so much about rage generation, since you can truncate the second Rampage, but about time. Fitting 3 Rampage's in completely just isn't going to happen reliably at this stage of gearing for most people. These are the types of things that will be hammered out once we have a better idea of gearing and any other changes which might affect the rotation.

    The change is a nerf all the way around, since the old bonus was actually 280%, not 150%, but even ignoring that, you very quickly reach a point with Juggernaut where it's better to prioritize Execute over the Rampage's tier bonuses during Battle Cry.

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