Need some help with Sub (with logs)

[Deleted]

Hello,
yesterday I have done HC ToS run as Sub rogue (Natalee)

here are logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/n6L37C9VWAMNmtQ2

any ideas what I'm doing wrong as my brackets are very crap?

thx for help.

[Deleted]

Hello,
yesterday I have done HC ToS run as Sub rogue (Natalee)

here are logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/n6L37C9VWAMNmtQ2

any ideas what I'm doing wrong as my brackets are very crap?

thx for help.

I had a quick look throughout your logs. Your opener seems to be completely random, which already costs you a lot dps in the beginning. You should open up your fights as follows:

Shadowblades prepull -> SS -> NB -> ShD -> SS -> SoD -> SS -> Evi -> SS -> Vanish/SS/Stopattack macro so you dont break stealth immediately -> DfA -> spam your ShD button to activate it before you land -> SS-> SS -> Evi -> SS

Use GB to get to 5+CP's quickly to refresh NB after your opener. You dont seem to understand how to properly play the DfA build, do you? Sometimes you use DfA, then dance after that you pop SoD, sometimes theres no SoD at all. It all looks pretty weird. The principles of Sub are very easy. You have a pretty strong burst combo, which is SoD/DfA/ShD and you want to always use all together. With T20's 4P the cooldown of SoD almost lines up perfectly with DfA. So you basically delay SoD, you wait for everything to come off cooldown, you get CP's up (5+) and you start pooling and then you go fo the whole combo at once SoD/DfA and spam yoour ShD key -> SS -> SS -> Evi -> SS. You always make sure you have NB up for at least ~ 7 seconds when you go for your burst. You never want to refresh NB while you are dancing thats why preparation is the key to success. Outside your burst window you chill your balls by backstabbing, trying to get NB up as soon as you will be ready to dance again.

Sub's principles are easy but its hard to master cause it needs a predictive playstyle while you need a perfect overview of your raid environment. In your log i basically found every mistake i described above. You dont play your burst combo like you always should, you refreshed NB during ShD, you used Vanish totally random. Line it up with your burst combo, generate 3CP's, use a Vanish/SS/Stopattack macro and then go for the whole SoD/DfA/ShD combo followed by SS SS EVI SS.

Try not to cap energy, use a weakaura for Shadow Techniques to improve your CP management which helps you to reduce the waste of CP's. You will get a feeling after a while when it is sometimes possible to use the second ShD charge after your burst combo to make it all fit into SoD window. This depends on timings, mechanics, boss duration, cooldowns etc.. But all this is how to master a spec. First step for you would be to master the basics. Get your opener straight, get your DfA combo straight and you will see an immense increase for your dps at your item lvl. When you get a good feeling and get famliar with that spec, you will automatically start to master it by paying more attention to Sub's core mechanics.

[BlaxBgon]

use a weakaura for Shadow Techniques

Where can I find one of these?
The only one in wagio looks like shit

[Deleted]

Where can I find one of these?
The only one in wagio looks like shit

Which one do you mean? This one is the most common: https://wago.io/4kKe362Nf

I use a simple one that only shows me numbers.

[Deleted]

@Aurellio

Txh for adv

[BlaxBgon]

[/url]

I use a simple one that only shows me numbers.

Can you share the number one please

edit: nvm I found it, its called ShT on wagio for anyone wondering

[cafecito820]

@Aurellio - Thanks for the in-depth reply. I have read the Icy Veins guide several times, and although it explains everything you just did, it never really puts it all together succinctly like this.

[tawnos42]

I had a quick look throughout your logs. Your opener seems to be completely random, which already costs you a lot dps in the beginning. You should open up your fights as follows:

Shadowblades prepull -> SS -> NB -> ShD -> SS -> SoD -> SS -> Evi -> SS -> Vanish/SS/Stopattack macro so you dont break stealth immediately -> DfA -> spam your ShD button to activate it before you land -> SS-> SS -> Evi -> SS

Use GB to get to 5+CP's quickly to refresh NB after your opener. You dont seem to understand how to properly play the DfA build, do you? Sometimes you use DfA, then dance after that you pop SoD, sometimes theres no SoD at all. It all looks pretty weird. The principles of Sub are very easy. You have a pretty strong burst combo, which is SoD/DfA/ShD and you want to always use all together. With T20's 4P the cooldown of SoD almost lines up perfectly with DfA. So you basically delay SoD, you wait for everything to come off cooldown, you get CP's up (5+) and you start pooling and then you go fo the whole combo at once SoD/DfA and spam yoour ShD key -> SS -> SS -> Evi -> SS. You always make sure you have NB up for at least ~ 7 seconds when you go for your burst. You never want to refresh NB while you are dancing thats why preparation is the key to success. Outside your burst window you chill your balls by backstabbing, trying to get NB up as soon as you will be ready to dance again.

Sub's principles are easy but its hard to master cause it needs a predictive playstyle while you need a perfect overview of your raid environment. In your log i basically found every mistake i described above. You dont play your burst combo like you always should, you refreshed NB during ShD, you used Vanish totally random. Line it up with your burst combo, generate 3CP's, use a Vanish/SS/Stopattack macro and then go for the whole SoD/DfA/ShD combo followed by SS SS EVI SS.

Try not to cap energy, use a weakaura for Shadow Techniques to improve your CP management which helps you to reduce the waste of CP's. You will get a feeling after a while when it is sometimes possible to use the second ShD charge after your burst combo to make it all fit into SoD window. This depends on timings, mechanics, boss duration, cooldowns etc.. But all this is how to master a spec. First step for you would be to master the basics. Get your opener straight, get your DfA combo straight and you will see an immense increase for your dps at your item lvl. When you get a good feeling and get famliar with that spec, you will automatically start to master it by paying more attention to Sub's core mechanics.

What would the opener be if not using shoulders and how do you use vanish in that case? Just anytime after dfa/dance ends and before symbols is over?

Also I frequently am in a situation where its either energy cap or delay symbols ( 5 combo points, ~90 energy, 4-5 seconds left on symbols refresh and no shadowblades to help with CP gen ). I struggle between whether to just let energy cap for a couple of seconds or fire off an evisc and rebuild back combo points. In that ( in my experience extremely common ) type of situation which is the lesser evil between energy capping or delaying the symbols/dfa/dance burst a few seconds while you rebuild energy/cp?

Also, I have been trying to still play with t19 2p but without that it also seems like there would very frequently be situations going into the dfa/dance combo where your only choices would be to severely overclip nightblade (refreshing well before it hits pandemic range) or risk it falling off. I still have the sin mentality that nightblade is like rupture and it can never fall off but maybe thats the way to go in those situations is to just let it fall off for a while after dfa/dance is over until CPs can be rebuilt. Or is it better just to overclip it in the leadup time to dfa/dance ?

[Deleted]

What would the opener be if not using shoulders and how do you use vanish in that case? Just anytime after dfa/dance ends and before symbols is over?

Also I frequently am in a situation where its either energy cap or delay symbols ( 5 combo points, ~90 energy, 4-5 seconds left on symbols refresh and no shadowblades to help with CP gen ). I struggle between whether to just let energy cap for a couple of seconds or fire off an evisc and rebuild back combo points. In that ( in my experience extremely common ) type of situation which is the lesser evil between energy capping or delaying the symbols/dfa/dance burst a few seconds while you rebuild energy/cp?

Also, I have been trying to still play with t19 2p but without that it also seems like there would very frequently be situations going into the dfa/dance combo where your only choices would be to severely overclip nightblade (refreshing well before it hits pandemic range) or risk it falling off. I still have the sin mentality that nightblade is like rupture and it can never fall off but maybe thats the way to go in those situations is to just let it fall off for a while after dfa/dance is over until CPs can be rebuilt. Or is it better just to overclip it in the leadup time to dfa/dance ?

I have honestly never thought about an opener without shoulders since i have never played Sub without. Its basically two extra shadowstrikes which you get after Vanish assuming you use the Vanish / SS / Stopattack macro. I reckon it would be ideal to use it when you have an empowered NB and SoD up to buff your extra shodowstrikes.

The situatuons you describe are exactly those i mentioned above when it comes to mastering Sub. I'd say it is pretty much situatuon-dependent. If you have an empowered NB up and a finality evi, i'd rather cap energy and go for the whole burst combo right after SoD comes off cooldown given that NB has at least ~ 6-7 seconds and you dont waste cp's througn shadow techniques. Best case would be if you got your 6th CP through Shadow Techniques within the 4 seconds waiting for SoD. The general rules is that you never want to cap energy cause it is a waste of dps but this is the tricky part about Sub. What i am wondering about i cant confirm that i get in such situations frequently.

I am not using the T19 2P which makes the usage of NB much smoother but how i handle NB is always to make sure you have at least 6-7 seconds left when you go for your burst combo. When NB drops after my burst i use backstab to get it back up asap. It is very important that your burst combo is buffed since backstab doesnt do so much dmg anyways and u can afford to let NB drop.