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  1. #1

    Darmok and Jalad

    Was rewatching the Tamarian episode of Star Trek TNG and have to say I can't imagine trying to communicate with a race that communicates the way the Tamarians do. Just imagine a race that speaks entirely by allegory and metaphore. Would you be able to communicate with them if you didn't know what they were doing?

    Kom graun, oso na graun op. Kom folau, oso na gyon op.

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  2. #2
    Deleted
    Darmok and Jalad at mmo-champion. When the trolls fell down.

  3. #3
    Half* of internet communication these days is by reference and meme exchange anyhow. You're already halfway there.


    *exaggeration

  4. #4
    I don't get the video....

    River darmok. What???

  5. #5
    In reality a language like this would not work at all.

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    If you know their stories, sure... we could use the Iliad in a similar manner.
    Achilles & Agamemnon at Thetis, his gifts are many, her wit is sharp.
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    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    In reality a language like this would not work at all.
    This: unless someone SAW the referenced situation occur, they would have no way at all to give it context to everyone else... Thus the effect of their language on picard would have also been the effect of it on the rest of their people, complete confusion.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

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    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I think in pictures (mostly)... this would be similar, but using similar concepts (or images of an action) to convey an idea... for instance:




    What does this image convey to you? Education? Philosophy? A School? It could be all of that depending on the context of why this was brought up.
    Pictures show you a situation, saying "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" without telling anyone what happened there doesn't work... You are telling us 2 people present in the image, and where the image takes place, but not anything at all about who they are or what they are doing in said image or anything about the named location... The names of 2 character we are unfamiliar with and the name of a location we are unfamiliar with tells us nothing.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-08-04 at 05:05 PM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  9. #9
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Right, which is why knowing the fable, situation, or seeing it would be helpful... in the show he made tangential references to the current situation. (the beast, etc)
    which requires people to know those references, or know references to those references, etc, which requires you to ramble on for hours and hours trying to find a starting reference they know, instead of just being able to describe the context of the first one in a couple of seconds. They have no way to just describe a situation to someone, like any reasonable language would have.


    That language would have never come to be, it is too complicated to be realistically viable... It would be actually many times more efficient if everyone just drew pictures.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Half* of internet communication these days is by reference and meme exchange anyhow. You're already halfway there.


    *exaggeration
    This. Memes can with a single image or gif carry complex thoughts understandable by most us yet would be totally incomprehensible by people from other times.

  11. #11
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    This. Memes can with a single image or gif carry complex thoughts understandable by most us yet would be totally incomprehensible by people from other times.
    Images describe things in detail. Showing us a picture of Darmok and Jalad doing whatever they did at Tanagra would do something, the image can show context, saying 2 names and a location doesn't give any context. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra is just the title of a painting, without that painting it has no meaning.

    Text based memes are comprehensible to us is because they can be reasonably described to introduce them to new people. Without being able to give them context, which we can, they would be meaningless even to us. The Star Wars Prequel memes for example, someone who has never see the movies, or maybe only once a long time ago can easily be explained the context behind them because we have a complete language to do so with. The "Darmok and Jalad" people have no complete language to explain the context of that statement with, and so it would be meaningless to anyone who didn't witness it.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-08-04 at 06:36 PM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  12. #12
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    Donald Trump and Twitter, in the White House. When the words lose covfefe.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Images describe things in detail. Showing us a picture of Darmok and Jalad doing whatever they did at Tanagra would do something, the image can show context, saying 2 names and a location doesn't give any context. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra is just the title of a painting, without that painting it has no meaning.

    Text based memes are comprehensible to us is because they can be reasonably described to introduce them to new people. Without being able to give them context, which we can, they would be meaningless even to us. The Star Wars Prequel memes for example, someone who has never see the movies, or maybe only once a long time ago can easily be explained the context behind them because we have a complete language to do so with. The "Darmok and Jalad" people have no complete language to explain the context of that statement with, and so it would be meaningless to anyone who didn't witness it.
    What if you turn an image based meme into a text based one?

    Willy Wonka leaning on his hand.

    Brian, wearing sweater.

    Henry and Tommy at the bar.

  15. #15
    We communicate like that quite a bit. Even in that episode they give examples. I believe the one that Troi used was "Juliet on her Balcony."

    I think the language boiled down to just the reference of it, but how would you give someone instructions? How would you teach in school? Someone above me had it right. The language would never be feasable in real life, but it did make for an amazing episode of Star Trek. Darmok is my second favorite TNG episode.
    Quote Originally Posted by blobbydan View Post
    We're all doomed. Let these retards shuffle the chairs on the titanic. They can die in a safe space if they want to... Whatever. What a miserable joke this life is. I can't wait until it's all finally over and I can return to the sweet oblivion of the void.

  16. #16
    Detailed analysis of it here -> https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...s-fell/372107/

    I watched it a few weeks ago and googled for some linguistic study on the topic and found the above.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  17. #17
    Deleted
    i never took that episode as about talking in references, i always took it as a take on how a real conversation with an alien would go once you could translate some of their language. language is about more then just translating words, it's also about the speakers morality, history, culture, etc.

    e.g. "how are you?" is a common greeting/conversation starter for us, but for a different society it might be consider rude to ask that, or based on their culture/philosophy the question might have an different meaning. obviously star trek couldn't do that kind of stuff since their universal translators compensate for that, so they had to stretch the concept to an extreme.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincayra View Post
    We communicate like that quite a bit. Even in that episode they give examples. I believe the one that Troi used was "Juliet on her Balcony."

    I think the language boiled down to just the reference of it, but how would you give someone instructions? How would you teach in school? Someone above me had it right. The language would never be feasable in real life, but it did make for an amazing episode of Star Trek. Darmok is my second favorite TNG episode.
    It did mention in the episode that the federation had like 5 other encounters with them in the past 100 years but was never able to communicate with them. I'm not sure they would've figured out had they not taken the captain to the surface.
    Kom graun, oso na graun op. Kom folau, oso na gyon op.

    #IStandWithGinaCarano

  19. #19
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fincayra View Post
    We communicate like that quite a bit. Even in that episode they give examples. I believe the one that Troi used was "Juliet on her Balcony."

    I think the language boiled down to just the reference of it, but how would you give someone instructions? How would you teach in school? Someone above me had it right. The language would never be feasable in real life, but it did make for an amazing episode of Star Trek. Darmok is my second favorite TNG episode.
    It was handwaved in the episode by saying the Tamaranian brain was very different from other humanoids, particularly in the language center. Of course in real life that's accurate, no language could work that way and still be able to describe advanced concepts.

  20. #20
    That sort of language would be completely impractical...even more so for a species that's anywhere close to interstellar travel.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2017-08-05 at 02:34 AM.

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