WoW is becoming more Pay To Win than ever with the next patch.

[Deleted]

Captain here. Pay 2 win MEANS you can only get ACCESS to the BEST GEAR (or services) by using REAL MONEY from somekind of shop, AND NOT AVAIBLE FROM ANY OTHER SOURCES. For this game examples: mythic+, craftings, raids.Other example: Ingame you can get a max 1000 ilvl items, but in the shop u can get 1100 ilvl items. But this game still drop the very best gear from mythic raids, or from anywhere if rng God favors you, without spending a penny for gears. Flies away.

[Arnoux]

Captain here. Pay 2 win MEANS you can only get ACCESS to the BEST GEAR (or services) by using REAL MONEY from somekind of shop, AND NOT AVAIBLE FROM ANY OTHER SOURCES. For this game examples: mythic+, craftings, raids.Other example: Ingame you can get a max 1000 ilvl items, but in the shop u can get 1100 ilvl items. But this game still drop the very best gear from mythic raids, or from anywhere if rng God favors you, without spending a penny for gears. Flies away.

No. It means that if you open your wallet then you get ahead of others.

However the whole point of the post is not what pay to win means. I don't understand why people have to talk about the definition of pay to win, when we are certainly not talking about the definition. Make your own thread and explain to other what do you think about the definition of pay to win and don't fill my thread with off topic.

[TheDeeGee]

Where does one buy a brain with Skills and Common Sense?

Cuz i believe you still need that to Raid Mythic, not just Gear alone.

[mickybrighteyes]

Last time was not the same as I have said in my first post. With 7.2.5 release, Blizzard introduced the ilvl 900 crafted gear. It was good for alt catchup, but people would be able to obtain 930 from mythic raid.

This time no raid will open. This 935 crafted gear should happen in 7.3.5 when new tier hits, not in 7.3.

wait... isn't the current gear from mythic raid still above 930?

[gushDH]

1st if you really believe a guild with people geared from buying items will be able to even bring mythic KJ to 80%, you have no idea.

2nd I am pretty sure there won't be many players who will pay 300 euros to just have a chance to get in a mythic guild. The guild officers will notice that they have only crafted items and no previous experience, and instantly decline the applicant. It's not only what you have, it's what you have done, too.

3rd it's nice to have new stuff coming to wow in any way.

[Zatachi]

Since the beginning of WoW there are people who played the AH and have plenty of gold, so buying things with gold is as old as WoW (actually older but you get the point)

So we all knew it! WoW was P2W from the beginning!

Also, buying a WoW-Token to sell it for gold is not generating new gold its shoving it from one player to another.

But hey, we learned in this thread that dolphins arent whales so i guess WoW is P2W? ;P

[Rorke]

lmao the amount of damage control in this thread is hilarious and sad at the same time.

If only the community back in 2008 saw this thread now lol.

Players across all games have been conditioned by these corporations that p2w is only when the game offers you an exclusive advantage lol. Oh how the goalposts of this argument has changed over the years.

[arel00]

No. It means that if you open your wallet then you get ahead of others.

However the whole point of the post is not what pay to win means. I don't understand why people have to talk about the definition of pay to win, when we are certainly not talking about the definition. Make your own thread and explain to other what do you think about the definition of pay to win and don't fill my thread with off topic.

First of all, "if you open your wallet" is bullshit. There are plenty of players with millions of gold in bank that have absolutely no need to spend real money to get more. The speed of sale for the WoW tokens, despite their price, should tell you enough.
Second, you can stack up Obliterum right now, when we still have plenty of time before the patch, so you are ready when 7.3 hits. Primal Sargerite is a BoP material, so you will not buy that, merely farm it. Start preparing, and you'll have enough Obliterum when the patch goes live that every single PS you get is an upgrade straight away.
You can't BE faster than that, because for every 935 item that hits the AH someone would have been farming the Sargerite for it, you do it yourself and the rate is pretty much the same. If you want a shortcut, buy a couple items and do the rest yourself. Still done plenty of time before the raid hits.

So, you're complaining that people that can prepare ahead of time now collecting in game gold by normally farming and/or stacking Obliterum and such, will have an advantage over those that do not? Looks like everything's in order. It looks like you have no clue how to farm and thus think paying cash is the only way to get things.

[Rorke]

P2W is when you are able to use real money to acquire anything in game. Whether its a character boost or cosmetic items it doesn't matter what it is. Any form of progression acquired from paying real money is P2W.

This thread is so sad. Idk how some of you can vote Democrat while at the same time defend these P2W practices and act like there's nothing wrong with a character boosts or mounts behind a paywall.

It's funny how the same people who defend this will be the same ones telling anyone that's opposed to the artifact grind that "grinding is a part of MMO's deal with it" yet they're totally fine with people paying money to skip part of the gear treadmill for faster progression.

Lmao. Whatever though.

[Eleccybubb]

P2W is when you are able to use real money to acquire anything in game. Whether its a character boost or cosmetic items it doesn't matter what it is. Any form of progression acquired from paying real money is P2W.

This thread is so sad. Idk how some of you can vote Democrat while at the same time defend these P2W practices and act like there's nothing wrong with a character boosts or mounts behind a paywall.

It's funny how the same people who defend this will be the same ones telling anyone that's opposed to the artifact grind that "grinding is a part of MMO's deal with it" yet they're totally fine with people paying money to skip part of the gear treadmill for faster progression.

Lmao. Whatever though.

Uhm what am I winning with a cosmetic item? Ironically those pets are actually worse than some ingame ones for battling.

https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pets/top-twenty/

Only one listed from the store is Lil Ragnaros and that is at number 8. The 7 before it are easy as hell to farm in game. Unborn Valkyr takes a tiny bit of effort from what I recall.

Yeah that isn't pay to win at all. Forgive me though for not taking you seriously when you start comparing politics to pay to win that isn't even in the game. If you seriously believe cosmetic items somehow give an advantage then that is just hilarious. And as I said I won't waste my time with you.

Also 100 boost is not pay to win. If it was 110 with bis gear, 9/9 mythic and free Gladiator with gear then yeah that would be pay to win. 100 boost wasn't even P2W when it was current in WoD since 640 gear didn't really get you anywhere.

Oh and not opposed to the artifact grind just think it could have been handled a lot better. Specifically Concordance should have just been 1 trait and there should have been more minor ones imo.

[Rorke]

Uhm what am I winning with a cosmetic item? Ironically those pets are actually worse than some ingame ones for battling.

https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pets/top-twenty/

Only one listed from the store is Lil Ragnaros and that is at number 8. The 7 before it are easy as hell to farm in game. Unborn Valkyr takes a tiny bit of effort from what I recall.

Yeah that isn't pay to win at all. Forgive me though for not taking you seriously when you start comparing politics to pay to win that isn't even in the game.

Also 100 boost is not pay to win. If it was 110 with bis gear, 9/9 mythic and free Gladiator with gear then yeah that would be pay to win.

Oh and not opposed to the artifact grind just think it could have been handled a lot better. Specifically Concordance should have just been 1 trait and there should have been more minor ones imo.

Cosmetic items are part of character progression. It doesn't matter if they're not increasing your power level. What matters is that your in game character is acquiring items he/she wouldn't have received without the use of your real money (something that doesn't exist in the game world).

Blizzard has done an excellent job conditioning the community into this. First it was the store mounts, then the class boosts, then the tokens. They just chipped and chipped away at the community until the community built a tolerance level to it where they now defend the abusive system that before was regarded as a gaming sin.

[Eleccybubb]

Cosmetic items are part of character progression. It doesn't matter if they're not increasing your power level. What matters is that your in game character is acquiring items he/she wouldn't have received without the use of your real money (something that doesn't exist in the game world).

Blizzard has done an excellent job conditioning the community into this. First it was the store mounts, then the class boosts, then the tokens. They just chipped and chipped away at the community until the community built a tolerance level to it where they now defend the abusive system that before was regarded as a gaming sin.

Well you can actually acquire those pets without spending real money.

Buy WoW token for gold.

Convert it to £17 of Battle.net Balance.

One pet. Would be two if they hadn't jacked up services by 20% but eh inflation.

And gold has never been easier to make. So no not pay to win. If you are having trouble making gold then there are plenty of guides. I make at least 20-40k a day depending on how bothered I can be. Mix of Enchanting, Jewelcrafting, Blacksmithing and Obliterating some crap crafts. Oh and Alchemy.

[Shammyrock]

People having a lot of gold via whatever method to buy BoE/crafting mats/whatever is not PTW

[Rorke]

Well you can actually acquire those pets without spending real money.

Buy WoW token for gold.

Convert it to £17 of Battle.net Balance.

One pet. Would be two if they hadn't jacked up services by 20% but eh inflation.

And gold has never been easier to make. So no not pay to win. If you are having trouble making gold then there are plenty of guides. I make at least 20-40k a day depending on how bothered I can be. Mix of Enchanting, Jewelcrafting, Blacksmithing and Obliterating some crap crafts. Oh and Alchemy.

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter if you can acquire pets or gear in game when the payment option exists. The fact that you can pay real money to Blizzard to ignore game mechanics is by definition P2W because your character is WINNING without actually completing the original in game challenge/grind to achieve it.

I can spend 100 dollars worth of Call of Duty points to get dozens of boxes that would've taken the other player that didn't buy any points weeks. I'm progressing faster by spending money. I'm winning by spending money.

Casual Joe that slaves at his 60hr a week job decides to spend 500 bucks worth of tokens to buy gear/carries is P2W. It doesn't matter if the money he spent pays off and nets him the best gear or not. What matters is that he is able to buy in game currency with real money to have MORE ECONOMIC power in game over his friends/fellow players that didn't spend the money and are stuck playing the game and grinding mass hours to be on par with him.

Joe is WINNING by doing this. He's bypassing the entire part of the game to propel himself over others. He's putting himself in a better situation where if the P2W option didn't exist he'd either grind like everyone else or be completely behind in terms of economic and numerical power.

The only people who win from this kind of system are the casuals that don't want to waste their time with the game and rather spend money to earn power and the Hardcore Raiders that stockpile mass amounts of gold thanks to the new market of casual joes out there.

Everyone else though is completely screwed by the system.

[shadowmatrix]

lmao the amount of damage control in this thread is hilarious and sad at the same time.

If only the community back in 2008 saw this thread now lol.

Players across all games have been conditioned by these corporations that p2w is only when the game offers you an exclusive advantage lol. Oh how the goalposts of this argument has changed over the years.

The goal posts didn't change, its just that some people seem to be playing on the kiddie field. People want to call anything and everything pay to win but that wont work considering we still have P2W games cluttering up the F2P market. We didn't forget anything, we just refuse to acknowledge people trying to kick off from the 50 yard line.

[Deleted]

935 is avarage ilvl of mythic raiders right now so maybe u use 1 item with thi obliterum maybe not if u are mythic raider.

If u are not a mythic raider u dont need this, if u want and u dont need u can pay with gold seems legit too me for a thing u dont need

[Charge me Doctor]

That won't happen because "donating" in wow doesn't magically create more gold. If you plan to buy out all reagents from economy - good luck.

If anything, people like these will drop the cost of token, which is good in my book

[Koward]

Cosmetic items are part of character progression. It doesn't matter if they're not increasing your power level. What matters is that your in game character is acquiring items he/she wouldn't have received without the use of your real money (something that doesn't exist in the game world).

Blizzard has done an excellent job conditioning the community into this. First it was the store mounts, then the class boosts, then the tokens. They just chipped and chipped away at the community until the community built a tolerance level to it where they now defend the abusive system that before was regarded as a gaming sin.

You are correct about that, many people are just used to stores now.
We see on this thread the main argument of the opposite side is just the counter definition. One side says "Pay2Win == Real money buy things in the game" (the textbook definition) and the other say "Pay2Win == Real money buy things you can't get otherwise".

Of course there is also the topic of what is cosmetic and what is not. I remember when mounts as a whole were not considered cosmetic, they were a proper objective you had to spend ingame time for. Then they became easier to get, mount skins became more cosmetic as you could get any you wanted. That made the Algalon-like flying horse that appeared in the store easier to swallow as getting a mount was not an hard objective.

I think one feel the P2W side of the game when seeing paying money helps to progress towards an objective himself wants to achieve.
The guy wanting a lot of gold will complain we can now buy gold from Blizzard.
The one who seeks better gear and higher ilvl will complain you can buy gear with gold since gold can be bought.

People who don't care about gear or gold won't understand why anyone is complaining.

Also, remember the difference between goldsellers and Blizzard. Blizzard makes the rules, goldsellers cheat. And rules are what make a game.

[arel00]

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter if you can acquire pets or gear in game when the payment option exists. The fact that you can pay real money to Blizzard to ignore game mechanics is by definition P2W because your character is WINNING without actually completing the original in game challenge/grind to achieve it.

I can spend 100 dollars worth of Call of Duty points to get dozens of boxes that would've taken the other player that didn't buy any points weeks. I'm progressing faster by spending money. I'm winning by spending money.

Casual Joe that slaves at his 60hr a week job decides to spend 500 bucks worth of tokens to buy gear/carries is P2W. It doesn't matter if the money he spent pays off and nets him the best gear or not. What matters is that he is able to buy in game currency with real money to have MORE ECONOMIC power in game over his friends/fellow players that didn't spend the money and are stuck playing the game and grinding mass hours to be on par with him.

Joe is WINNING by doing this. He's bypassing the entire part of the game to propel himself over others. He's putting himself in a better situation where if the P2W option didn't exist he'd either grind like everyone else or be completely behind in terms of economic and numerical power.

The only people who win from this kind of system are the casuals that don't want to waste their time with the game and rather spend money to earn power and the Hardcore Raiders that stockpile mass amounts of gold thanks to the new market of casual joes out there.

Everyone else though is completely screwed by the system.

Yeah, let's try to pretend guilds selling raid slots hasn't been happening since 2004. A pay-to-win game is a different thing: it's game where you can ONLY pay real money to get stuff you simply can't have otherwise. Everything you can buy with money in WoW, you can buy by playing - the token-to-balance conversion has actually helped in this regard, since now you can also get the store items for free, just by stacking in game gold.
You screaming at something doesn't make it different. WoW is not a pay-to-win game, no advantage is reserved to real money transactions that you can't otherwise get with gold, and any and all boosts you can grab with cash have always existed, and always will, as long as people offer boosts, leveling, raid slots, etc, independently of Blizzard's wishes.

[Deleted]

No. It means that if you open your wallet then you get ahead of others.

However the whole point of the post is not what pay to win means. I don't understand why people have to talk about the definition of pay to win, when we are certainly not talking about the definition. Make your own thread and explain to other what do you think about the definition of pay to win and don't fill my thread with off topic.

You are an idiot, check some real pay to win mmo rpg, and check it with WoW. Maybe then you will able to see the difference. You are telling if I open my wallet I will have advantage over others. In what way? What I get that I become so op? Most guilds already with 935+ i lvl gears.

Your understanding about p2w is bullshit