1. #18541
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    In Kings landing you have civilians there you only had soldiers.

    - - - Updated - - -


    You clearly never tried to hit something small and moving with a bow
    That is very much true. But I am assuming those archers have?

  2. #18542
    By the way, why the hell Daenerys burned the wagons when she had a line of soldiers right next to it? It's not like she in desperate need of soldiers, but grains on the other hand...

    The whole Westeros is short of it, so why burn it in the first place? I could understand if the went there with a small force and the main goal was to deprive Lannister forces of food, but she went all in, so I assume she wanted to plunder.

  3. #18543
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by toxicrusader View Post
    By the way, why the hell Daenerys burned the wagons when she had a line of soldiers right next to it? It's not like she in desperate need of soldiers, but grains on the other hand...

    The whole Westeros is short of it, so why burn it in the first place? I could understand if the went there with a small force and the main goal was to deprive Lannister forces of food, but she went all in, so I assume she wanted to plunder.
    I don't think she was able to take it with her all the way home

  4. #18544
    Quote Originally Posted by toxicrusader View Post
    By the way, why the hell Daenerys burned the wagons when she had a line of soldiers right next to it? It's not like she in desperate need of soldiers, but grains on the other hand...

    The whole Westeros is short of it, so why burn it in the first place? I could understand if the went there with a small force and the main goal was to deprive Lannister forces of food, but she went all in, so I assume she wanted to plunder.
    The dothraki don't need it, they just need grazing land, the unsullied are on their own, so she has no one to feed the with the highgarden supply, if she didn't burn it jamie would have tried to get the caravan moving through the gates of Kl as long as the lannister line held, denying Cersei was more important than trying to take it.

  5. #18545
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Widow View Post
    The way I see it both sides will starve now, but Cerseis side more

    But then again Dany has control of Highgarden again so her troops will be able to get food, right?
    From what Jamie was saying they were taking damn near all of it leaving little or nothing for the people.

  6. #18546
    Quote Originally Posted by Nupomaniac View Post
    I don't think she was able to take it with her all the way home
    Well, dothraki and their horses needed ships to cross the bay, right? I think they could make room for basically a resouce that its lack could cause them to lose the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikegreenfire View Post
    The dothraki don't need it, they just need grazing land, the unsullied are on their own, so she has no one to feed the with the highgarden supply, if she didn't burn it jamie would have tried to get the caravan moving through the gates of Kl as long as the lannister line held, denying Cersei was more important than trying to take it.
    While it might have worked back in the day when they roamed the grass sea, okay, nut now they are on a complete strange land and with enemies surrounding them, I don't think they would have freedom to run across the land and gather the resources they need to sustain the horde. And the Unsullied are pretty much the royal army, her most prized and loyal defendants... She would not let them on their own. But the "hurry up´and burn it before they cash in the grains" makes sense, I think.

  7. #18547
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Widow View Post
    The way I see it both sides will starve now, but Cerseis side more

    But then again Dany has control of Highgarden again so her troops will be able to get food, right?
    The dothraki don't need it, just grazing land, the reach will continue producing quite well.

    a4187021Master Rooseman 75 points 2 years ago
    I don't know how far east Winter reaches, but GRRM has addressed how much of Westeros is usually covered in this SSM:
    Surely, the import of grain from the South alone can't cover the North's needs. And, by the way, does it snow in the South during the winter?
    Yes, some times, in some places. The Mountains of the Moon get quite a lot of snow, the Vale and the riverlands and the west rather less, but some. King's Landing gets snow infrequently, the Storm Lands and the Reach rarely, Oldtown and Dorne almost never.
    Even in winter it rarely snows in the reach, so it will continue to have relatively good harvests.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by toxicrusader View Post
    Well, dothraki and their horses needed ships to cross the bay, right? I think they could make room for basically a resouce that its lack could cause them to lose the war.



    While it might have worked back in the day when they roamed the grass sea, okay, nut now they are on a complete strange land and with enemies surrounding them, I don't think they would have freedom to run across the land and gather the resources they need to sustain the horde. And the Unsullied are pretty much the royal army, her most prized and loyal defendants... She would not let them on their own. But the "hurry up´and burn it before they cash in the grains" makes sense, I think.
    Enimes don't surround them, they vastly outnumber cersei no one could stop the horde when it went out to graze, not the local lords, not cersei. They would sit in their astles and hope the dothraki move on.

    The unsullied are on their own, stuck on the western part of the westerlands with the greyjoy death fleet patrolling dany cant risk sending ships across continent. they would have to take what they could form the local lords and peasants, while they march back.
    Last edited by Ilikegreenfire; 2017-08-07 at 07:20 AM.

  8. #18548
    This is the first episode of the season I liked more than I disliked, and it wasn't for the battle scene.

    Dislikes first:
    1) I'm at the point where I just have to ignore/write off the complete change in character for Jaime/Cersei/Randyll Tarly/the Iron Bank. To me, it's all explained by D&D needing Dany to have a formidable foe and some sort of tension on the other side of the battle, and they didn't know how to do it. At the end of last season, Cersei was stark raving mad, Jaime was seriously put off by her and blamed her for Tommen's death, the Tyrells and their bannermen all hated the Lannisters for, well, blowing up all the Tyrells, and the Iron Bank wouldn't have touched Cersei with a 10 foot pole.

    2) The logistics of the battle, but a bunch of you covered that already. This is the most forgivable of the flaws of the episode because it was well produced and, because, fuck, I lost all hope in battles in this series once Ramsay and his band of Twenty Goodmen starting wrecking havoc across the lands and Euron showed up exactly where he needed to every time because they're total badasses and badasses are apparently precogs.

    3) So, does Arya recognize Littlefinger from her time at Harrenhal as Tywin's serving girl? More importantly, does LF recognize her? AFAIK, LF never really knew the Stark girls when they were in KL, which is why the scene with Tywin could happen without her being recognized. But is he suddenly afraid that Tywin's serving girl is now out in the open as Arya Stark? I think it's a given she knows he's a fishy piece of shit, but is it possible the master planner has let this little detail slip him? It'll be a truly ignominious end for him in that case. It wasn't clear at all in the episode, but both characters do have a reason to potentially play it close to the vest.

    The best parts of the episode, in reverse order:

    3) The Starks reuniting again, and seeing how broken/different they all are. It makes you question in the moment if any of them have actually "survived" this ordeal, and are still what it means to be Stark. Surely Ned and Cat would be heartbroken at what they've become.

    2) The tension from hearing the Dothraki screamers on the horizon. That was well played, and I imagine what it really must have been like facing a Hun horde or Apaches on the warpath.

    1) Bran, out of nowhere, saying "Chaos is a ladder," and stopping Littlefinger dead in his tracks. Literally got chills, which is something the show hasn't done for me in a few seasons. Ironically, it did so by hearkening back to the glory days of Master Plan Littlefinger in earlier seasons. That was the best line in the early seasons that wasn't lifted straight from the books.

  9. #18549
    I wonder when GRRM writes the final books, does he have to follow the TV shows at all? I'm kind of hoping not because I think GRRM would do a much better job of writing than D&D, the current screen writers of the TV shows.
    .

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  10. #18550
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This is the first episode of the season I liked more than I disliked, and it wasn't for the battle scene.

    Dislikes first:
    1) I'm at the point where I just have to ignore/write off the complete change in character for Jaime/Cersei/Randyll Tarly/the Iron Bank. To me, it's all explained by D&D needing Dany to have a formidable foe and some sort of tension on the other side of the battle, and they didn't know how to do it. At the end of last season, Cersei was stark raving mad, Jaime was seriously put off by her and blamed her for Tommen's death, the Tyrells and their bannermen all hated the Lannisters for, well, blowing up all the Tyrells, and the Iron Bank wouldn't have touched Cersei with a 10 foot pole.

    2) The logistics of the battle, but a bunch of you covered that already. This is the most forgivable of the flaws of the episode because it was well produced and, because, fuck, I lost all hope in battles in this series once Ramsay and his band of Twenty Goodmen starting wrecking havoc across the lands and Euron showed up exactly where he needed to every time because they're total badasses and badasses are apparently precogs.

    3) So, does Arya recognize Littlefinger from her time at Harrenhal as Tywin's serving girl? More importantly, does LF recognize her? AFAIK, LF never really knew the Stark girls when they were in KL, which is why the scene with Tywin could happen without her being recognized. But is he suddenly afraid that Tywin's serving girl is now out in the open as Arya Stark? I think it's a given she knows he's a fishy piece of shit, but is it possible the master planner has let this little detail slip him? It'll be a truly ignominious end for him in that case. It wasn't clear at all in the episode, but both characters do have a reason to potentially play it close to the vest.

    The best parts of the episode, in reverse order:

    3) The Starks reuniting again, and seeing how broken/different they all are. It makes you question in the moment if any of them have actually "survived" this ordeal, and are still what it means to be Stark. Surely Ned and Cat would be heartbroken at what they've become.

    2) The tension from hearing the Dothraki screamers on the horizon. That was well played, and I imagine what it really must have been like facing a Hun horde or Apaches on the warpath.

    1) Bran, out of nowhere, saying "Chaos is a ladder," and stopping Littlefinger dead in his tracks. Literally got chills, which is something the show hasn't done for me in a few seasons. Ironically, it did so by hearkening back to the glory days of Master Plan Littlefinger in earlier seasons. That was the best line in the early seasons that wasn't lifted straight from the books.
    Jaime/Cersei/Randyll Tarly/the Iron Bank havent hade afe have a complete change in character, or at least one that that wasn't properly set up what are you talking about? Cersei is sill crazy as seen by pretty much the entity of her scenes in episode 3 minus the iron bank guy, Jamie is still pissed with her hence not wanting to have sex in ep 3, she is just the only person he had left. Tarly is a raciest Olenna was an old women with no living heirs who allayed with in his mind the worst race of barbarians in the world, as was offered ot become lord of the reach, it would have been off character for him to stay loyal.

    What logistical flaws, elaborate on this please.

    Of course Arya recognizes littlefinger, she even brings him up by name asking what he is doing there, and of course he recognizes her. Brann's chaos is a ladder line means he has been looking into him, his days are numbered. He will probably tell Arya exactly how Lf betrayed ned and that's how Arya will kill him.
    Last edited by Ilikegreenfire; 2017-08-07 at 08:08 AM.

  11. #18551
    I mean, you just spout things, you can't argue with someone who just says things with no backup.

    1) Cersei has been outright cunning this season. This isn't the markings of a madwoman. Last season she BLEW UP THE SEPT OF BAELOR, which is stark raving mad because it should have had dire consequences on her rule immediately and achieved no goal that she couldn't have already achieved in an actual cunning manner, but conveniently that crime had no consequences.

    2) Jaime's whole arc last season was about growing apart from Cersei, and now suddenly he's defending her position at every turn and fighting all her battles - and you point to one line where he says "No" to having sex as a sign of him still growing apart from her?

    3) Tarly has never been a racist, in either book or show, except in the one episode where suddenly he's a racist and is willing to betray the Tyrells over it. His main beef was with Sam not being what he thought a Lordly man should be. He doesn't take exception to Gilly being Sam's woman (because Lords have mistresses all the time), but he takes exception to the idea that his son would sleep with "The Enemy" ie a wildling. He couldn't give a shit about the other billion wildlings south of the Wall now, just the one that brings dishonor to his family name via his son. Then, on top of that, his banner Lord was slaughtered, wholesale, along with hundreds of innocents. Then, on top of that, the Targaryens come back to fight against the Lannisters, whom they have hated traditionally and now have reason to hate anew, and Tarly........brings dishonor to his name by turning coat? You're implying there's some sort of sense of "Westerosi" pride in this universe that has to be protected, but the whole point of this show is that these seven Great Houses are continuously fractured and fighting against each other.

    4) The Iron Bank rejected Davos/Stannis for bullshit reasons. It was on Robert's ass all the time even though he had a relatively peaceful reign for about a decade. Everything the bank has done (and I'm talking in the show, forget its anti-slavery beliefs in the books) has been conservative and risk adverse. Cersei is a huge risk. Why would they take that risk? Why would they associate themselves with Euron Greyjoy by proxy, who is the antithesis of the civilized banking world, and is essentially a pirate and risk to free trade in Westeros?

    5) Everyone else discussed the logistical flaws of the battle. For one, flying a dragon straight at a ballista is stupid. Dany not wearing some sort of armor is stupid. Drogon not wearing some sort of armor is stupid. Charging a shield wall is stupid. Bronn having 3 uninterrupted shots on a ballista on a battlefield his side is getting demolished on is stupid. Bronn coming out of nowhere to tackle Jaime is ridiculous, as is the deep lake right next to the road?

    I mean, I'm a fan of the show, but you seem to have left all critical thought at the door, and you've shown it numerous times.

  12. #18552
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    Quote Originally Posted by toxicrusader View Post
    By the way, why the hell Daenerys burned the wagons when she had a line of soldiers right next to it? It's not like she in desperate need of soldiers, but grains on the other hand...
    Coz inbetween those line her Dothraki where fighting? there is a high chance she will burn them aswell, she let let dothraki fight most of the soldiers and burned all the "spoils of war" herself.

    Also some people in this thread think way to far in details its fucking funny and entertaining at the same time, sometimes you just have to accept things like they are and not think to much into it.
    Last edited by Vestig3; 2017-08-07 at 08:43 AM.
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  13. #18553
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    How is it more humane for Dany to attack a large army and destroy the largest grain supply in Westeros than it is for her to fly to the Red Keep and kill Cersei?
    Killing soldiers (who's job is to fight) is part of the plan

    Killing civilians however is not. The fastest way to make yourself the enemy is by killing the innocent.

  14. #18554
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    She paid off the entire debt in a single payment, which means that the Iron Bank can no longer rack up interest payments, they even mention this in the episode. And once again, not thievery when you take it from your dead enemies.
    Except the Tyrels were not her enemies. They were her allies. She made them her enemies when she blew up almost their entire family. This should show the bank that she's an unreliable person that backstabs allies left and right, and not exactly the most reliable partner to expect profits.

    Besides even though she's paying her debt, their method of payment is inherently unsustainable. With the Reach raided of its wealth, Cersei almost certainly could never pay off such a debt again, and there's no readily available means for them to generate more wealth over a longer period since winter is coming. Furthermore, they previously showed disdain for this method of debt servicing. How exactly is it more profitable for them to side with Cersei? Winning or not, she's not gonna be able to keep this up in the long term, even if everything goes right for her (Which is way too optimistic considering Daenerys has dragons, and that's all it took to conquer the entire continent a few centuries ago)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Now that I had the chance to re-watch the battle in more detail, it occurs to me that there was a stroke of genius in the tactics used by Daenerys and her army.

    Common military doctrine dictates that air attacks are wasted against dispersed ground troops. Ideally you want your enemies to cluster together, to take out large chunks of them at once with each strafing pass. But Cavalry (Like the Dothraki) are very good against dispersed infantry, or routing masses.

    Therefore, their plan was to force the Lannister army into tight formation, creating a shield wall to face the Dothraki, and then unleash Drogon. The result is a pretty nasty choice for the the Lannister army: staying put in formation and be burned to cinders,or dispersing to avoid the same, which means becoming easy pickings for the Dothraki......
    Last edited by Derah; 2017-08-07 at 09:10 AM.

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  15. #18555
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I mean, you just spout things, you can't argue with someone who just says things with no backup.

    1) Cersei has been outright cunning this season. This isn't the markings of a madwoman. Last season she BLEW UP THE SEPT OF BAELOR, which is stark raving mad because it should have had dire consequences on her rule immediately and achieved no goal that she couldn't have already achieved in an actual cunning manner, but conveniently that crime had no consequences.

    2) Jaime's whole arc last season was about growing apart from Cersei, and now suddenly he's defending her position at every turn and fighting all her battles - and you point to one line where he says "No" to having sex as a sign of him still growing apart from her?

    3) Tarly has never been a racist, in either book or show, except in the one episode where suddenly he's a racist and is willing to betray the Tyrells over it. His main beef was with Sam not being what he thought a Lordly man should be. He doesn't take exception to Gilly being Sam's woman (because Lords have mistresses all the time), but he takes exception to the idea that his son would sleep with "The Enemy" ie a wildling. He couldn't give a shit about the other billion wildlings south of the Wall now, just the one that brings dishonor to his family name via his son. Then, on top of that, his banner Lord was slaughtered, wholesale, along with hundreds of innocents. Then, on top of that, the Targaryens come back to fight against the Lannisters, whom they have hated traditionally and now have reason to hate anew, and Tarly........brings dishonor to his name by turning coat? You're implying there's some sort of sense of "Westerosi" pride in this universe that has to be protected, but the whole point of this show is that these seven Great Houses are continuously fractured and fighting against each other.

    4) The Iron Bank rejected Davos/Stannis for bullshit reasons. It was on Robert's ass all the time even though he had a relatively peaceful reign for about a decade. Everything the bank has done (and I'm talking in the show, forget its anti-slavery beliefs in the books) has been conservative and risk adverse. Cersei is a huge risk. Why would they take that risk? Why would they associate themselves with Euron Greyjoy by proxy, who is the antithesis of the civilized banking world, and is essentially a pirate and risk to free trade in Westeros?

    5) Everyone else discussed the logistical flaws of the battle. For one, flying a dragon straight at a ballista is stupid. Dany not wearing some sort of armor is stupid. Drogon not wearing some sort of armor is stupid. Charging a shield wall is stupid. Bronn having 3 uninterrupted shots on a ballista on a battlefield his side is getting demolished on is stupid. Bronn coming out of nowhere to tackle Jaime is ridiculous, as is the deep lake right next to the road?

    I mean, I'm a fan of the show, but you seem to have left all critical thought at the door, and you've shown it numerous times.
    You can be crazy and cunning...... they aren't mutually exclusive... Blowing up the sept is both crazy and cunning.
    Episode 3 clearly shows she is crazy she nearly creams herself when euron delivers the sand snakes, she mentions she doesn't sleep and spends he nights plotting the deaths of her enemies. The entire dungeon scene is pure crazy

    He is still growing apart from her, but she is the only person he has, This is jamie, mr imma fuck you over our dead sons corpse when you say no, saying no, he is growing apart, he actually leaves in episode 7 after reconciling with tyrion in episode 5

    Tarly is a raciest in the show, it is an established fact I mean, you just spout things, you can't argue with someone who just says things with no backup when they are in direct contradiction to what the show established. Tarly is a racist and was offered to become the lord of the reach. It would have been odd for him not to take the Lannisters offer. And ya when the Dothraki horde is at your shores its going to make the racist lords of weterose band together with who is opposing them. Tarly is sworn both to the Tyrells and the Iron throne, technically the Iron throne supersedes the Tyrell's anyway agauin olenna is an old women with no issue, their is an uncertain future in supporting her.

    Because their only other option is Dany, who would never ever fucking pay them.

    Dany flew strait at the balista to blow it up you even see drgons mouth ignite dany didn't call dracarys fast enough.

    Dany with no armor is dumb but she left immediately, from the beach, she hasn't gotten around to having a suit made, its not like she was planing on going on a trip ending in a battle. Drogon has armor, its his scales, dragons don't need additional armor it would just be a hindrance while in flight, i mean he shrugged of a death balista hit and he is only like 5 their scales get tougher with age. again i think you are missing the fact that it was an impromptu trip.

    The lannister line was super fucking thing, normally charging a shield wall is dumb yes, but when it is spread that thin its not that bad of an idea, dany also opend up a gap in the line, charging the front of the wall helps the dothraki who got in through he gap wreak havoc as it hold the lannister men still.

    The balisita was every lannister mans only chance of survival, they would defend it with their lives.

    The balista was toast, Jamie is his meal ticket, he just lost his gold, of couse he would go hunt him down and make sure he lived.

    Alot of people on the net like to hate circle jerk the show because it makes them feel smarter, but when someone disagrees when them or points out flaws in their argument they decend into personal insults, kind of sad.

  16. #18556
    All this bickering and nitpicking over details and flaws is so fucking pointless. I mean there are a billion unrealistic things about the series. It's a god damn fantasy series with dragons and zombies and people are bitching about the realism of a battle scene....
    Especially in this phase of the show, in which all the storylines and the survivng major characters are coming together in some sort of giant clash, the writers can't possibly please everyone and pay attention to all those little things that might not hold up to scrutiny.
    I'm not saying they should throw all logic out of the window, I am saying the audience is going to have to accept a certain level of silliness and simply enjoy the ride for what it is. All things considered I think they're doing an awesome job so far.
    Last edited by deepr; 2017-08-07 at 09:57 AM.

  17. #18557
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    What was the point in burning the loot? The fight was already over when the dragon appeared. Surely that could have been used to raise an even bigger army.

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  18. #18558
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuja View Post
    What was the point in burning the loot? The fight was already over when the dragon appeared. Surely that could have been used to raise an even bigger army.
    Iirc Tarly said the gold was already inside kings landing, only the food got burned, given the only food the dothraki need is their horses and all their horses need is grazing lands, dany had no reason not to burn the caravans.

  19. #18559
    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    Except the Tyrels were not her enemies. They were her allies. She made them her enemies when she blew up almost their entire family. This should show the bank that she's an unreliable person that backstabs allies left and right, and not exactly the most reliable partner to expect profits.
    How is that true? Officially, she was locked up in the Red Keep and was only let out of prison (after a walk of shame, anyway) as a courtesy to then-king Tommen, to await her trial in better conditions. For all she knew, High Sparrow cooperated with the Tyrells, or at least she predicted that he would be leaning toward the Tyrells during the trial. She could only lose. She had high ambitions and she knew Tyrells would be obstacles. They weren't allies. Tyrells didn't think Cersei is their ally and Cersei knew Tyrells are her enemies.

    It's different for the Iron Bank, since it's not bound to any lands and faction fighting as Tyrells were. It is specifically explained that the Iron Bank believes that Dany wouldn't pay it off, and its influence is so great that it could easily destabilize Westeros again if Cersei didn't want to pay up after she defeated Dany. The Iron Bank is the embodiment of the same establishment that Dany wants to destroy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    Besides even though she's paying her debt, their method of payment is inherently unsustainable. With the Reach raided of its wealth, Cersei almost certainly could never pay off such a debt again, and there's no readily available means for them to generate more wealth over a longer period since winter is coming. Furthermore, they previously showed disdain for this method of debt servicing. How exactly is it more profitable for them to side with Cersei? Winning or not, she's not gonna be able to keep this up in the long term, even if everything goes right for her (Which is way too optimistic considering Daenerys has dragons, and that's all it took to conquer the entire continent a few centuries ago)
    It is a trust issue. Cersei is in dire need of gold to field more armies, build up defenses (both vs dragons and normal armies) and food stores for the winter, but the first thing she uses the huge gold boost from Highgarden is paying off the Iron Bank. It is a clear message that even if she doesn't start paying off the new debt right away, she will after things settle down. But even if the crown doesn't, the Iron Bank can still heavily invest in rebuilding Westeros and reap the benefits after. On the other side you have Dany the Wheel Breaker, who is far more unpredictable than supposedly mad Cersei and already incurred losses for the Iron Bank in Essos, and may not want Iron Bank in Westeros.

    You're right that she won't be able to keep up raiding and sacking rich enemy castles, but she won't have to. She needed to raid Highgarden to get rid of the Tyrells and secure the south, get its gold and food supplies. For all we know, Euron Greyjoy may be on his way (though probably isn't) to Sunspear to sack it and get Cersei another fill of enemy gold. Dorne is probably out of the picture in any case - Martells are all gone, Sand Snakes are gone, there are no clear successors which means it will stay out of the war in the best scenario for it, or it will have a civil war (things are much more tense in Dorne in the books). Dany pretty much says the she lost Dorne after losing the Sand Snakes. So the south is secured for Cersei, the Riverlands are secured, Casterly Rock alone is lost but the Unsullied have no ships and no way of getting back to Dragonstone, and the rest of Westerlands are still under Lannister control. Dany only has dragons and the Dothraki. She is losing as it is. Now that Cersei will have knowledge that dragons can be killed, she will mass produce ballistae and put them on KL walls, and if Dany fields her Dothraki again and Lannisters move out against them, they will be well-prepared to fight dragons. Of course there will be some plot devices to either get Dany to move North or to weaken Cersei's position, but right now it's clear who's winning.
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  20. #18560
    Deleted
    I wonder if Ed survived that final battle.

    Feelsbad man.

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