the sun and nature magic

[Piamonte]

Actually, it is believe based. The Naaru, through Velen's prophecies, knew that the Blood Knights would strongly believe on the Light again. That's why M'uru sacrificed himself.

And ditch the "pls be serious" if you want to debate lore.

the blood elves alredy had a story with the light, is not new to them, you said it yourself and that was the whole point, blood elves can be paladins but they have a really good expplanation, first they used the light back in warcraft 3 and second they are expert in absorbing magic and Muru offfered himself to be the blood elve´s source of light magic

i say be serious because you are playing with semantics and trying to pass it as an argument, i wont answer to you again because there is no point in it

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Tauren priests learned to use the Light practically out of nowhere.

i meant aside from taurens....

[Deleted]

the blood elves alredy had a story with the light, is not new to them, you said it yourself and that was the whole point, blood elves can be paladins but they have a really good expplanation, first they used the light back in warcraft 3 and second they are expert in absorbing magic and Muru offfered himself to be the blood elve´s source of light magic

Only Lady Liadrin had a direct connection with the Light, the majority of the Blood Knights were former Royal Guards.

[Al Gorefiend]

Blood Knights set the precedent that any race can be a Paladin if they siphon a Naaru. Whatever headcanon people want to use to justify it being unique to BE is incorrect. A goblin can walk into the Sunwell, scoop up some holy magic and suddenly Paladin.

It's funny because that's literally exactly what Blizzard used to justify Horde paladins. Sunwalkers shit on Paladin lore not even a fraction of what BEs did.

[Piamonte]

Blood Knights set the precedent that any race can be a Paladin if they siphon a Naaru. Whatever headcanon people want to use to justify it being unique to BE is incorrect. A goblin can walk into the Sunwell, scoop up some holy magic and suddenly Paladin.

It's funny because that's literally exactly what Blizzard used to justify Horde paladins. Sunwalkers shit on Paladin lore not even a fraction of what BEs did.

incorrect why??? care to explain??

agreed on the tauren thing though

[Fyersing]

incorrect why??? care to explain??

agreed on the tauren thing though

I've always interpreted things like this:



This understanding would then allow for anything that traditionally falls into the "nature" category to theoretically be capable of utilizing something that resembles either Arcane or Holy. This is semi-corroborated by the description of how the Emerald Dream was created in Chronicle I.

[huth]

Doesn't fit with the Chronicle at all. Light and Void are the primordial powers everything else was generated from. Arcane is on the same level as Nature, Death and Fel.

It's more of a two circle venn diagram with the overlap of Light and Void being the WarCraft multiverse.

[Deleted]

This understanding would then allow for anything that traditionally falls into the "nature" category to theoretically be capable of utilizing something that resembles either Arcane or Holy. This is semi-corroborated by the description of how the Emerald Dream was created in Chronicle I.

Like huth said, Arcane is also a down tier related to Light and Void. And there is no "unknown", Light and Void are like water and oil and its mixing created everything (including the Fel).

[chr2]

Kudos to Wildmoon for having the patience to keep coming back to this.

care to give an example?? a good example about other races learning to wield quickly a type of magic they dont suppose to??

I wanna start out by saying the Holy Light =/= the Light (the first being a religion, the second a cosmic force).

Here's an example for you: Zabra Hexx, a jungle troll without any previous connection to the Light, took up residence in the Scarlet Monastery and quickly learned to wield the Light by reading the books he found there. Whether Zabra adopted the religion of the Holy Light, or simply applied what he learned to his own beliefs, we do not know.

In fact troll priests in general are a great argument here; they wield the Light yet they believe in the Loa which means that either a) their faith in the Loa resonated with the Light, allowing them to use it, or b) Zabra taught all would-be-priest members of the Darkspear tribe (which he has never been stated to be part of) how to wield it in a very short amount of time.

Additionally, night elf priests do not believe in the Holy Light either, but rather they gain their powers from their faith in Elune. Now, say you're right about the moon and sun being sources of arcane and nature energies respectively. Elune is a lunar deity and is associated with one of Azeroth's moon, yet night elf priests do not use arcane magic (that very practice had been forbidden since the WotA).
So, look at it like this: Tauren paladins/priests' belief in the sun allows them to wield the Light, similar to how night elf priests' belief in the moon allows them to wield the Light.

[Piamonte]

Kudos to Wildmoon for having the patience to keep coming back to this.



I wanna start out by saying the Holy Light =/= the Light (the first being a religion, the second a cosmic force).

Here's an example for you: Zabra Hexx, a jungle troll without any previous connection to the Light, took up residence in the Scarlet Monastery and quickly learned to wield the Light by reading the books he found there. Whether Zabra adopted the religion of the Holy Light, or simply applied what he learned to his own beliefs, we do not know.

In fact troll priests in general are a great argument here; they wield the Light yet they believe in the Loa which means that either a) their faith in the Loa resonated with the Light, allowing them to use it, or b) Zabra taught all would-be-priest members of the Darkspear tribe (which he has never been stated to be part of) how to wield it in a very short amount of time.

Additionally, night elf priests do not believe in the Holy Light either, but rather they gain their powers from their faith in Elune. Now, say you're right about the moon and sun being sources of arcane and nature energies respectively. Elune is a lunar deity and is associated with one of Azeroth's moon, yet night elf priests do not use arcane magic (that very practice had been forbidden since the WotA).
So, look at it like this: Tauren paladins/priests' belief in the sun allows them to wield the Light, similar to how night elf priests' belief in the moon allows them to wield the Light.

night elfs priests use arcane magic given to them by Elune, it has always been like this, they using light magic in the game is just gameplay (its the same for troll priests). I dont know how you reconcile the fact that night elves loathe the use of arcane magic with the fact that the priests of Elune have always been using arcane magic from the start, but this has always been canon since warcraft 3, may be its how you got the power, in the case of the priests, they asks for the power to Elune, if Elune sees that they are worthy she gives them power which is different from a mage that can abuse his magic abilities and call the attention of demons.

I read about Zabrak and it only says that he learned to use the light, nothing else, it does not say if he was good at it and now he is using shadow magic instead of Light magic, so as i said, im still waiting for a good example of a race (not just an individual) quickly learning to use magic they dont suppose to.


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I've always interpreted things like this:



This understanding would then allow for anything that traditionally falls into the "nature" category to theoretically be capable of utilizing something that resembles either Arcane or Holy. This is semi-corroborated by the description of how the Emerald Dream was created in Chronicle I.

while other people are right and chronicles debunks this, i find this very interesting because i have always thought there is ar elation between arcane magic and nature magic, after all they are right next to each other in the chronicles magic chart, and guess what, at the other side of nature magic its the light, so may be you are right, when you combine light and arcane you get nature magic

[huth]

Blizzard clarified shortly after Chronicle 1 was released that placement on the chart is completely nonindicative of relationships.

[Piamonte]

Blizzard clarified shortly after Chronicle 1 was released that placement on the chart is completely nonindicative of relationships.

source pls

[Fyersing]

Doesn't fit with the Chronicle at all. Light and Void are the primordial powers everything else was generated from. Arcane is on the same level as Nature, Death and Fel.

As someone else has already posited, we can't accept the Cosmology Chart provided by Chronicle I as being indicative of anything, because Blizzard themselves has already said that the position of the relevant groups is entirely arbitrary. The only truth we can glean from the pages are going to be found within the text itself -- which, interestingly enough, specifically states that in the beginning there was Light... only Light.

The absence of Light, as it slowly moved across the astral universe, is what created the Void. This is important because it shows that something can be created without needing to share any qualities with the thing that created it.

An additional point of interest is that the Chronicle I tells us that Aman'thul, one of the first beings in the physical universe, "possessed a natural affinity for the latent magic in the universe". The word latent, at least according to the OED, meaning "(of a quality or state) existing but not yet developed or manifest; hidden or concealed". It could certainly be that all things arcane-based are ultimately a combination of Light/Void, but as Chronicle I implicitly explains that it's possible for one substance to create another, without it being necessary for the new substance to share compositional elements with the original substance, it must then also be possible that the "latent magic in the universe" refers to a third, compositionally unique substance.

It's more of a two circle venn diagram with the overlap of Light and Void being the WarCraft multiverse.

As I said, certainly a possibility -- but as we already know/suspect that anything deemed to be "Nature", magically speaking, is some combination of Arcane and Light, it seems unlikely that this duality is the case.

[Piamonte]

As someone else has already posited, we can't accept the Cosmology Chart provided by Chronicle I as being indicative of anything, because Blizzard themselves has already said that the position of the relevant groups is entirely arbitrary. The only truth we can glean from the pages are going to be found within the text itself -- which, interestingly enough, specifically states that in the beginning there was Light... only Light.

The absence of Light, as it slowly moved across the astral universe, is what created the Void. This is important because it shows that something can be created without needing to share any qualities with the thing that created it.

An additional point of interest is that the Chronicle I tells us that Aman'thul, one of the first beings in the physical universe, "possessed a natural affinity for the latent magic in the universe". The word latent, at least according to the OED, meaning "(of a quality or state) existing but not yet developed or manifest; hidden or concealed". It could certainly be that all things arcane-based are ultimately a combination of Light/Void, but as Chronicle I implicitly explains that it's possible for one substance to create another, without it being necessary for the new substance to share compositional elements with the original substance, it must then also be possible that the "latent magic in the universe" refers to a third, compositionally unique substance.



As I said, certainly a possibility -- but as we already know/suspect that anything deemed to be "Nature", magically speaking, is some combination of Arcane and Light, it seems unlikely that this duality is the case.

Amanthul uses time magic, thats the latent magic you are referring to, its obvious

Nature magic, could be a combination of arcane and light magic

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with all this discussion about nature magic being the combination of Light magic and arcane, i remembered that in the op i wrote that the sun could be a source of a more pure nature magic closer to the Light.. Our sun is a star that allows our plants to grow. In the warcraft universe stars are related to arcane magic, so may be the sun in the warcraft universe was a star (made of arcane magic) which got infused by the light and it became a source of nature magic that allows or helps the plants of Azeroth in their growth.

Just some last minute ramblings i wanted to add :P

[huth]

Actually, all Druid "Star" spells are Astral, which is a Nature/Arcane combination school. Have fun with that one.

As someone else has already posited, we can't accept the Cosmology Chart provided by Chronicle I as being indicative of anything, because Blizzard themselves has already said that the position of the relevant groups is entirely arbitrary. The only truth we can glean from the pages are going to be found within the text itself -- which, interestingly enough, specifically states that in the beginning there was Light... only Light.

The absence of Light, as it slowly moved across the astral universe, is what created the Void. This is important because it shows that something can be created without needing to share any qualities with the thing that created it.

And the Chronicle then goes on to explain that everything else was created from Light and Void clashing. Including Arcane and Nature, the physical world etc.

I.e. the WarCraft multiverse is the overlap of Light and Void.

It's not simply a possibility. It's outright stated.

[Fyersing]

Amanthul uses time magic, thats the latent magic you are referring to, its obvious

Not only is that assertion far from obvious, it's also simply untrue.

When we're talking about magic, you have to understand that distinction between types and schools. A type specifically refers to magic that has it's own unique source (i.e. Light, Void, Arcane, Fel and possibly "Nature"), which can be drawn from by individuals; whereas schools refer to a specialized usage that can be achieved by some, or even all, of the existing types.

The magical manipulation of time is a school of magic, not a type; which is why radically different groups of magical practitioners (Bronze Dragonflight, Gul'dan w/ Fel, Elisande w/ Arcane) can all achieve nearly identical results.

Nature magic, could be a combination of arcane and light magic

Seems most probable.

Actually, all Druid "Star" spells are Astral, which is a Nature/Arcane combination school. Have fun with that one.

This doesn't really challenge what I suggested, though, namely that anything categorically placed within the umbrella of "Nature" might fall somewhere between Arcane and Holy. If we were to generally understand "Nature" as being 50% Arcane and 50% Light, then anything later described as being an even mixture of "Nature" and Arcane is simply a convoluted way of saying it's 75% Arcane and 25% Light.

A lot like how telling people your dog is a Labradoodle x Labrador Retriever mix -- it sounds interesting, but really what you're saying is that the dog is 75% Labrador Retriever and 25% Poodle.

And the Chronicle then goes on to explain that everything else was created from Light and Void clashing. Including Arcane and Nature, the physical world etc.

You've missed the point, entirely.

The fact that one substance (Light) was capable of creating an additional substance (Void), without the latter sharing virtually any compositional similarities at all with the former, lends itself to the notion that their clashing would be capable of exactly the same thing; additionally, if your dichotomy was the correct one, theoretically there wouldn't be an enormous distinction in how Mages and Paladins (or Priests, and Warlocks) work at all and this isn't at all what we see in-game or in the literature. Everything points to both Arcane and Fel being completely unique, standalone substances. Them being a result of Light/Void colliding doesn't really change that.

It's not simply a possibility. It's outright stated.

It's stated that Light/Void colliding is what created the universe, it's not stated that everything in the universe is composed entirely of Light/Void to varying degrees. Those are two very different things -- when you take a bit of hydrogen and a bit of oxygen, both uniquely structured particles, and combine them in a specific way you get something entirely distinct from either parent particle: water.

[Wildmoon]

Just go to the chronicle. Light,Shadow,Life,Disorder,Order and Death are the cosmic forces working behind the whole thing and there are respective types of magic derived from them. Nautre magic comes from the force of Life. Arcane comes from the force of order. There's no such a thing as light+arcane=nature. It will save people a lot of trouble if you just go read the chronicle carefully.

Also there are blue posts stating that tauren paladins use holy light posted by Aquamonkey in another thread to confirm on the subject if all the evidences and reasoning I have given are not enough for you.

[Piamonte]

Just go to the chronicle. Light,Shadow,Life,Disorder,Order and Death are the cosmic forces working behind the whole thing and there are respective types of magic derived from them. Nautre magic comes from the force of Life. Arcane comes from the force of order. There's no such a thing as light+arcane=nature. It will save people a lot of trouble if you just go read the chronicle carefully.

Also there are blue posts stating that tauren paladins use holy light posted by Aquamonkey in another thread to confirm on the subject if all the evidences and reasoning I have given are not enough for you.

dude, im not stating anything, its just a random thought i had

i read what aquamonkey posted and it says game-wise, whcih means gameplay, but anyway, go read the tauren lore or the sunwalker lore and you´ll see that it doesnt make sense for them to be paladins, one of the first sunwalkers was a druid, i mean, c´mon!!!

[Wildmoon]

dude, im not stating anything, its just a random thought i had

i read what aquamonkey posted and it says game-wise, whcih means gameplay, but anyway, go read the tauren lore or the sunwalker lore and you´ll see that it doesnt make sense for them to be paladins, one of the first sunwalkers was a druid, i mean, c´mon!!!

What kind of logic is that? Illidan was a mage. He is a demon hunter. Malfurion was trained in arcane art. He is now a druid.

"Both priests and paladins can wield the Holy Light. However, not all wield it through the same means (e.g., Elune, An'she)" What part of this is not clear? It also does not matter if for game-related reasons they have been made so because they are now. Blizzard wanted to make taurens paladin. They did it. Being paladin means you are using the light one way or another. Faith in An'she is just one of many means.

[Piamonte]

What kind of logic is that? Illidan was a mage. He is a demon hunter. Malfurion was trained in arcane art. He is now a druid.

"Both priests and paladins can wield the Holy Light. However, not all wield it through the same means (e.g., Elune, An'she)" What part of this is not clear? It also does not matter if for game-related reasons they have been made so because they are now. Blizzard wanted to make taurens paladin. They did it. Being paladin means you are using the light one way or another. Faith in An'she is just one of many means.

dont mind the whole: light + arcane= nature, its just a last thought i had that makes sense to me considering that blizzard hasnt eally explained how each type of magic is form other tan saying they appeared after the universe was created

I´m tired of arguing about the sunwalkers with you, there is so much lore that supports sunwalkers being something akin to sun druids than there is to support them being paladins. The only reason they are paladins is because Blizzard needed to give taurens a new class

The tweet you cited is incomplete, later it says: "for game-related reasons.."

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Actually, all Druid "Star" spells are Astral, which is a Nature/Arcane combination school. Have fun with that one.

Source on this pls, if stars are nature + arcane, then the sun could be nature + light, which is something similar to what i said in the op

[huth]

It's right in the tooltip. And it's star spells, not stars themselves. In fact, we have not been given any indication that the actual stars are anything more than big plasma balls.

Seems most probable.

Not really. There's only you two believing it, and there is no support for it anywhere. It's not even shown that mixing magic in this way is even possible, or that Life, Order and Light are related in such a way that this would be possible. It isn't enough that the Chronicle doesn't contradict you. There is no such thing as a proof by non-contradiction.

Also, both Gul'dan and Elisande got their access to time magic from the Eye of Aman'thul, while the Bronze Flight was empowered by Aman'thul himself. Time affecting magic in general is associated with Arcane magic.