Enhancement Tier 20 4piece

[Deleted]

Do you use the tier 20 4p in single target?

I personally kept 2 piece from t19 for so long and still refrain from switching into full 4 set with crash lightning bonus, mainly because I'm not sure how to manage the stacks.

Do you hold onto them until 15? If so how do you maintain the crit buff? If we cast crash lightning on CD then the stacks never get too high to deal meaningful damage, especially in single target.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Akurenia]

Don't care about the stacks in ST. 2pc is refreshed after SS in the priority list. For aoe you might want to save the 4pc stacks but otherwise it's not really important.

[Deleted]

But if stacks not important then how exactly is 4 piece an upgrade over t19 2 set bonus in single target.... I have exactly same ilvl pieces with tier 20

[coprax]

I personally kept 2 piece from t19 for so long and still refrain from switching into full 4 set with crash lightning bonus, mainly because I'm not sure how to manage the stacks.

You don't manage the stacks Just like the flametongue stacks, they just exist and add extra damage but don't change your rotation.
In single target you just keep up the crit buff, which means you cast it every 15 seconds or so.

[Deleted]

But if stacks not important then how exactly is 4 piece an upgrade over t19 2 set bonus in single target.... I have exactly same ilvl pieces with tier 20

I don't remember the exact increase in ST damage for the two sets, but depending on your SS accumulation to increase the T20 4set, it is still a boost compared to no set. I would suggest you sim your two sets to see the difference in the two. In my case, I do not have ideal T20 ilvl set yet. So I am running 2xT19 + 2xT20 for ST fights and a 4set T20 for AoE/Cleave burst.
It can be very gear specific (as many scenarios are) - so best suggestion to see for yourself would be to try to sim it.

I have the simulation craft addon. Hit /simc ingame copy/paste that output, go to raidbots.com, select the gear compare function and and select the items you want to review.
If you are running a glove+EOTN combo, it would most likely be the same trait setup. Hit calculate, and it will show you what ideally comes out on top and an estimate on the difference between the two in the ST scenario.

//Betjent

[EasymodeX]

Do you hold onto them until 15? If so how do you maintain the crit buff?

I have TMW set up so that if I hit 14 stacks OR the crit buff is going to drop next GCD then my Crash Lightning button highlights.

When the button flashes I prioritize it (against my other flashing buttons).

Under normal circumstances this means I never overcap 4pc stacks, I never drop the crit buff, and I end up using Crash every 15-ish seconds.

When I'm getting Ascendance procs then I will typically hit 15 stacks before the crit buff expires. If I have shit for procs during normal low-Maelstrom timeframes, I will typically refresh the crit buff long before I hit 15 stacks.

So it goes.

[Enkrypt]

I started using 4pc last week and I noticed about a 10K DPS upgrade over my non-tier pieces. I was reluctant to start using because of the same concerns you have. I was unsure how to manage it. On fights like KJ, Mistress, Harjatan, Host, etc... with a fairly constant flow of adds, I noticed substantial DPS increases. On a fight like Avatar it felt bad, though. I'd suggest using a simulation to help determine what's better for ST or 3-4 add fights. It's the only real way to know.

I'd say go with it and start familiarizing yourself with weaving it in. I do, admittedly, try to build stacks up for when the adds spawn. Not all the way to 15, but I tried to maximize it without losing the crit buff.

[rakanishu13]

If you are using crash lightning every 15 secs (to keep the buff) then how on earth are you netting 15 stacks ? Thats 1 SS a sec there. You are either the luckiest shaman in azeroth when it comes to proccing storm bringer and have endless maelstrom! Do you also have a full set of Mythic Titanically Warforged Ubber gear too? Im reporting you farseer, thats just against enhancement shaman regulation where we are bound to be unlucky sad shaman.

His shaman would explain where all my stormbringer procs are going.

[Deleted]

Thanks all for sharing your expeince.

My issue with simming myself is basically, simcraft/raidbots and askmrrobot telling a different story every time.

There always seems to be a discrepancy in sim results and i get really confused in the end.

For example AMR favours haste heavy items, raidbots seems to like mastery heavy items more.
Again AMR seems to like Earth Spike more, raidbots shows ascendance more on par with little dps difference

[Ribesal]

Getting 15 stacks before the buff expires isn't that rare, especially during ascendance.
One of our artifact traits let stormstrike multistrike, and these multistrikes give stacks, too.
It even happens regular to me that Lashing Flames reaches 99 Stacks before i have to use Lava Lash again.
( I don't use Hot Hand, because i still don't have Akainu's... )

[Deleted]

Thanks all for sharing your expeince.

My issue with simming myself is basically, simcraft/raidbots and askmrrobot telling a different story every time.

There always seems to be a discrepancy in sim results and i get really confused in the end.

For example AMR favours haste heavy items, raidbots seems to like mastery heavy items more.
Again AMR seems to like Earth Spike more, raidbots shows ascendance more on par with little dps difference

AskMrRobot is just useless. The results are just wrong and pure guessing from other profiles.

Raidbots/Simcraft for your OWN character is much closer.

And there are no stacks to manage, i track the stacks and they barely ever reach 15 stacks within 15sec. Only with BL + Ascebdabce + proc luck it is possible.

[EasymodeX]

If you are using crash lightning every 15 secs (to keep the buff) then how on earth are you netting 15 stacks ? Thats 1 SS a sec there.

I have 51% passive haste, and when Bloodlust et al are up with Ascendance things get fast. Also, I suspect you get 2 procs when both mainhand and offhand crit. But that's anecdotal speculation.


Edit:

Yeah for that other poster who mentioned Lashing Flames, I'm going to have to modify my TMW to include that now that I actually hit 99 stacks unexpectedly with SH Ascendance procs.

[Zoopercat]

@Khagalat - have you run a custom gearing strategy on AMR yet? That will give you gear results tailored totally to your character. If you haven't yet, here is a guide (but pick 'gearing strategy' for the sim type instead of 'beta v2' like the picture shows). http://i.imgur.com/wBitmQb.jpg

I can also run it for you if you give me your character name and realm.

Lastly, as for simming things, we spend a lot of time make sure it is as accurate as possible. One of our recent set of tests shows that our sims match top players (indicating that spells and rotations are correct and reflecting what top players can do in game): http://blog.askmrrobot.com/simulations-match-real-logs

[grazan]

I'm just not sure if Simc/Raidbots is simming the T20 4pc correctly. I have two 915 T20 items, and 2 T19 items (895+S and 900). If I raidbots sim with T20 915 4 peice, its still 20-30k behind my double 2pc setup.

[Deleted]

@Khagalat - have you run a custom gearing strategy on AMR yet? That will give you gear results tailored totally to your character. If you haven't yet, here is a guide (but pick 'gearing strategy' for the sim type instead of 'beta v2' like the picture shows). http://i.imgur.com/wBitmQb.jpg

I can also run it for you if you give me your character name and realm.

Lastly, as for simming things, we spend a lot of time make sure it is as accurate as possible. One of our recent set of tests shows that our sims match top players (indicating that spells and rotations are correct and reflecting what top players can do in game): http://blog.askmrrobot.com/simulations-match-real-logs

@Zoopercat unfortunately i am not that good at simming to do a custom gearing strategy Would you be able to do it for me by any chance please?
My character is Khagalat-Silvermoon

I use legendary hands and eye of the twisting nether ring legendary. I want to know couple of things
a) Is keeping 2 piece from tier 19 better (Together with 2 set from t20 )- use 920 cloak and 905 shoulders from tier 19 instead of what i have on now for single target. Keep my helm and legs from t20 on for t20 2p bonus. (this is one discrepancy AMR shows full tier 20 - 4p higher)
b) I obtained the talent ring (Soul of the farseer) which gives tempest talent, If I take overcharge as secondary talent and use this instead of eye of the twisting nether ring, do i get an increase?
c) My neck I have Chain of Scorched bones on 915 which gives haste, I have a mastery neck 930 Brysngamen Torc of Helheim, I'm confused which one is better. (Another discrepancy AMR seems to like haste items more)
d) Lvl 100 talents, is ascendance or earthspike higher. (Theres a bigger difference between these talents on AMR)

[Rusah]

@Khagalat - have you run a custom gearing strategy on AMR yet? That will give you gear results tailored totally to your character. If you haven't yet, here is a guide (but pick 'gearing strategy' for the sim type instead of 'beta v2' like the picture shows). http://i.imgur.com/wBitmQb.jpg

I can also run it for you if you give me your character name and realm.

Lastly, as for simming things, we spend a lot of time make sure it is as accurate as possible. One of our recent set of tests shows that our sims match top players (indicating that spells and rotations are correct and reflecting what top players can do in game): http://blog.askmrrobot.com/simulations-match-real-logs

The AMR engine (for Enhancement at least) has many critical inaccuracies that do not line up with game mechanics.

Some examples (there are MANY):

1 - Doom Wolves white attacks are not scaling with player haste.
2 - Frost Wolves are not proc'ing the frost buff from Eye of the Twisting Nether
3 - Stormstrike (And Windstrike) Stormflurries are not being treated as full copies of their abilities and as such are significantly underestimated.

There's an even bigger laundry list of problems beyond this I've identified with the AMR engine. I personally have zero confidence in the accuracy of your tool, considering we're approaching a full year into Legion with basic enhancement mechanics being flat out wrong. I don't think that any of your gearing strategies or stat weights can be considered accurate when the underlying systems that generate them are incorrect.

Despite the engine missing huge chunks of damage, AMR still manages to be roughly 5-6% ahead of Simcraft in DPS (which is most definitely accurate to in-game mechanics) so there are most assuredly other significant damage estimation problems.


And this isn't even beginning to get into the rotational issues.

[Swol]

I don't believe that you have "many" examples of "critical" inaccuracies in the AMR simulator for enhancement.

Lets first look at the three you mentioned.

1.) You claim that doom wolves white attacks are not scaling with player haste in AMR. This is a false statement.

It takes 10 seconds to do a test to confirm if this is the case or not. Simulate a character with bloodlust enabled, and then disabled. If the spirit wolf auto attacks were not scaling with haste, the white hits would be the same.
With bloodlust (93.0-94.3 white hits):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...d3b9388756ecd3
Without bloodlust (84.2 - 84.6 white hits):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...ab07dffc9ea414

And, here is the implementation:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory...t&version=live

It is clear that spirit wolf auto attacks are scaling with haste.

Now, to be fair, I can understand why you would have thought that AMR doesn't do enough auto attacks with the spirit wolves if you are used to looking at SimC results. SimC's implementation of Spirit Wolves has been incorrect for all of Legion, despite the fact that I have pointed this out to the devs on multiple occasions. SimC is using the wrong attack speed for the spirit wolves. AMR matches the game, SimC does not. And further on that point, the doom wolves use their special attack too often in SimC. AMR matches the game, SimC does not.

2.) Chill of the Twisting Nether not proc'ing from Doom Wolf frost spell. This one actually is a bug in the AMR simulator. I was not aware that pets would proc it. I can add that in no problem. (Already fixed at the time of this post.)

3.) "Stormstrike (And Windstrike) Stormflurries are not being treated as full copies of their abilities and as such are significantly underestimated."

Well, they are treated as "full copies". They benefit from all the same damage multipliers, proc all the same attacks, etc. You would have to offer some more specific information on what you believe might be wrong. Just looking through log outputs, the damage is doing what would be expected, and it matches logs.

As far as why AMR simulates to higher damage than SimC... that's a tough question to figure out. I have done detailed comparisons and found a few of the SimC bugs, but not all of the differences:
1.) Spirit Wolves (and Doom Wolves), as I mentioned above. This just makes the problem worse, though, since that would reduce SimC damage even further.
2.) Flametongue Attack. In SimC this is doing far too little damage. This alone is accounting for about 2.5% of the missing damage in SimC.

Most other things look similar, but it is very hard to compare stormstrike and windstrike damage between the two simulators. Comparing to logs, it looks like the number of Stormstrike and Windstrike uses in SimC isn't matching up with what we're seeing in-game quite right. I still have to do more investigation when I have time.

And you mentioned "rotational issue". It is true that I use/recommend a slightly different rotation than SimC. I have translated the SimC rotation into AMR to do detailed comparisons. My rotation does the same amount of damage, or, slightly more in some cases. Here is an example using the character I was testing on above:
AMR Default (1373.0k DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...bfe89951e43031
SimC APL (1371.3k DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...84ed0e03b4aa96

Since the damage sources other than stormstrike are all spread out so much, this leaves a certain degree of wiggle room in the enhancement rotation compared to other specs. Prioritizing one spell a little more than another can cause DPS-neutral changes. This is just one example, of course, but I have tested in the rotations against many different characters.

Bugs are inevitable in both simulators. I am always grateful when people find them before I do and point them out, and I am always on the hunt for them.

[Zoopercat]

@Khagalat - I can't find that character on Silvermoon (US or EU). Does it have special characters in the name, by chance? If you wouldn't mind, link me to your character on AMR or the armory. It's possible I haven't had enough coffee today and it's a human error.

[Rusah]

**huge quote**

I've got a list of items for you to look into - I'd be happy to discuss over Discord PMs or something if you'd like to move it to there. You can find me easily on Earthshrine.

[Deleted]

@Khagalat - I can't find that character on Silvermoon (US or EU). Does it have special characters in the name, by chance? If you wouldn't mind, link me to your character on AMR or the armory. It's possible I haven't had enough coffee today and it's a human error.

Hello my armory link is https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...rmoon/khagalat

Thanks so much