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  1. #141
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    Good! Except I fear to go into an LFR after that change, knowing how many Donalds from dark legacy comics there will be.

    Speaking of tourists, would be awesome if they would also make flight paths to not be in tourist mode, and faster preferably too. They take unnecessary long routes always and circle around things. A bird path would be better, after all they can fly.

    One good example is flying to argent tournament, the bird flies around the tournament area before landing.

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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Still see ppl doing 250k in 870 gear
    Did they somehow boost everyone while I wasn't looking? 250k in 870 gear is bad, but nowhere near as terrible as you are making it sound, especially with ilvl being inflated by 970 legendaries (which for this fresh player could easily be the BoE and a shit utility one).

    I just checked our mythic Ursoc kill vid, in ~866 gear the average dps was around 330k, that's with full raid buffs and vantus rune on a short DPS check fight with intermittent cleave.

    If someone has 870 gear now, chances are: they are still learning their class, don't have all artifact traits, have shit traits on relics (also could have only 2 relics), shit leggos (if they have 2 at all), shit secondary stats on gear, and they definitely don't have gems/enchants, because why would they spend money on gear they are replacing within 2 days. And in LFR/5mans they sure as hell don't have flask/food/vantus rune. So all in all yeah, 250k in 870 gear isn't all that terrible.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoJ View Post
    You (and many others) seem to misunderstand. Nobody intends to make LFR "hard" just more engaging -- meaning that it should not be possible for more than half of the group to go afk while the remaining poor bastards do all the work. A lot of LFR bosses basically had the same abilities as on normal, however you could completely and totally ignore them. The "new way" is to strip the bosses of meaningless abilities and leave 1 or 2 abilities which you still have to do well -- e.g. go away from boss when he casts X or it will do high damage to you (dare I say kill you?) even on LFR. Personally I think this approach is great and makes most sense.
    Yeah, and it has begun, but in my opinion actually makes things worse. Take Desolate Host on LFR. It's not like DH on normal and above is the pinnacle of encounter design, but on LFR it's probably the most tedious thing in the world. The best part of it on non-LFR is Desolate Host himself, giant skeletal motherfucker constantly dealing huge damage. Remove him from LFR and all you're left with is literally nothing. Target dummies at least have a funny "getting hit" animation.

    Then you get to a boss like Avatar of Sargeras, again, the most fun mechanic (aside of ground going bye bye) is gone. No maiden means no attempted annihilations, no additional element in the fight. I get it, remove it to make it bearable on lfr, even for weaker players who don't know the encounter. There are way better ways to do this tho, like making Maiden always somehow absorbing the energy and still being a part of the encounter. What about Avatar himself? It's a huge, boring target dummy with GIANT health pool for ilvl he provides. Seriously, throw 20 medicore players with ilvl of 860 who this encounter is designed for, and see them hit a brick wall all the time due to soft enrage. This thing takes FOREVER to kill if you aren't getting boosted by some raiders who this should not be designed for.

    The point is, for me the emphasis on LFR shouldn't be on getting rid of abilities, even making them super weak - but making bosses at least die way faster, so if a few guys (or half the raid) die at least the encounter can be done without them easily. This isn't organized raiding, people go there to chill out and kill some fools - and see what all these bosses do and how crazy they are. Remove fun stuff and LFR becomes the most tedious thing in the world.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I get the feeling a lot of people here missed the crux of what they were saying.

    They aren't advocating bringing LFR closer to the point of organised raiding (normal and higher), or forcing players to get work hard to improve their characters in order to succeed. It's about setting the content so that it is engaging for the people doing it.

    LFR should be at the level where the people for whom it was designed feel like they have to pay a bit of attention to what they're doing and apply whatever skill they might have (even if somewhat limited) if they want to win, as opposed to the boss just falling over automatically.

    And I agree. LFR shouldn't be particularly challenging for anyone who wants to participate in it. But that doesn't mean that everyone should be able to sleep their way through it.
    That's how I understood it too. ''Not tourist mode'' doesn't mean ''hard''. It simply means that you actually have a chance of dying if you ignore the big, obvious mechanics. Which you should, even in LFR.

    Albeit I still question the wisdom of removing Desolate Host. Maiden makes more sense, it means that one bad tank doesn't wipe your raid again and again. But for the Host they could just have tuned the damage back and it would have been fine.

    I'm kinda eager to see how LFR KJ ends up being. All of his Normal mechanics are still there, nerfed a lot of course but I wanna see LFR tackle the Armageddons or the darkness phase, or see Felclaws destroy tanks who have no idea what mitigation is.

  5. #145
    Since you do not have voice chat making LFR harder will just mean the groups will wipe over and over again until the stacks climb high enough to push them thru the fight or enough people who are not doing mechanics leave so the group can progress.

    It will not work, but I guess Blizzard is free to try this. Although they have had harder LFR fights before and just ended up nerfing them after getting complaints so I doubt this will work.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Yeah, and it has begun, but in my opinion actually makes things worse. Take Desolate Host on LFR. It's not like DH on normal and above is the pinnacle of encounter design, but on LFR it's probably the most tedious thing in the world. The best part of it on non-LFR is Desolate Host himself, giant skeletal motherfucker constantly dealing huge damage. Remove him from LFR and all you're left with is literally nothing. Target dummies at least have a funny "getting hit" animation.

    Then you get to a boss like Avatar of Sargeras, again, the most fun mechanic (aside of ground going bye bye) is gone. No maiden means no attempted annihilations, no additional element in the fight. I get it, remove it to make it bearable on lfr, even for weaker players who don't know the encounter. There are way better ways to do this tho, like making Maiden always somehow absorbing the energy and still being a part of the encounter. What about Avatar himself? It's a huge, boring target dummy with GIANT health pool for ilvl he provides. Seriously, throw 20 medicore players with ilvl of 860 who this encounter is designed for, and see them hit a brick wall all the time due to soft enrage. This thing takes FOREVER to kill if you aren't getting boosted by some raiders who this should not be designed for.

    The point is, for me the emphasis on LFR shouldn't be on getting rid of abilities, even making them super weak - but making bosses at least die way faster, so if a few guys (or half the raid) die at least the encounter can be done without them easily. This isn't organized raiding, people go there to chill out and kill some fools - and see what all these bosses do and how crazy they are. Remove fun stuff and LFR becomes the most tedious thing in the world.
    1) Using desolate host as an example in this discussion is pointless... You are right of course, however Blizzard admitted that they went overboard with removing things with that one (in latest dev Q&A).

    2) Avatar is THE perfect example of a LFR tuned dps check. While the boss doesn't really have any extremely dangerous abilities (the few he has are mediocre) it forces you to focus on damage, otherwise you will die. It may be one of the few LFR bosses where I actually wiped (twice) -- and even all the kills I've been to were pretty close to (essentially last platform remaining).

    3) So you are essentially proposing to keep the bosses as target dummies with extremely watered down abilities, just with smaller effective hp (be it by lowering the real HP, boosting the damage by a buff, or whatever else will have the same effect). I don't agree with this... different people different opinions, I guess

  7. #147
    There should only be 1 raid difficulty, like in wrath naxx/uld with hardmodes
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    Anyway stop being such an ass fucktard.
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    Would you kindly go fuck yourself?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Remove 'em, idgaf. LFR is a poor use of resources. Nice fake quote, though.
    How much resources do you think is required for LFR? And are yo sure the people used to script the LFR encounters are the same as the ones doing regular / hc / mythic versions? Dunno... LFR seems like the perfect thing to throw at an intern / junior game designer / whatever they call people with less experience -- since it essentially means taking full encounters, getting familiar with them, and trimming it down to easier level. It certainly doesn't look like a feature which requires substantial effort -- on the other side it is a popular feature which caters to many customers so practically a developers dream (because don't fool yourself, LFR is popular among the player base -- although mmoc is not the type of website were this would be the case). Just my two cents on this topic as somebody with sw engineering background (not gaming though).

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinexve View Post
    There should only be 1 raid difficulty, like in wrath naxx/uld with hardmodes
    These "should" comments are always incomplete. You need to connect it to some goal, rather than just leaving the comment hanging in midair like that.

    As in, "To destroy the game, there should only be 1 raid difficulty..."
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyelessCrow View Post
    That's probably the point.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Normal & LFR get merged, the queue will exist still. but you will get benefits like an extra piece of loot that drops on top of the already scaling loot pieces based on how many people you have for forming your own group & zoning into the instance instead.

    My own thoughts on how things could be.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2017-08-08 at 02:22 AM.
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  11. #151
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    I have allways said LFR should be a training mode

    The bosses have more health but do less damage.

    For example you enter Nighthold first wing of "training mode"
    you are paired with all the other players

    the bosses mechanics take much longer, and on your screen you are shown a raid warning

    -so along comes his focus blast, the screen then warns you "Move from focus blast when it is aimed at you" after beating the boss three times without being hit by focus blast you are rewarded a select peice of gear from said boss.

    -Along comes his adds, it then says "aoe down the adds to reduce damage to the tank" by killing 100 scorpions you then get another select peice of gear

    -Along comes his knockback "Move behind a pillar to avoid being knocked back into more mobs" Again, killing the boss twice without having this effect you, will grant you a select peice of gear.
    so on with other mechanics


    LFR should train players to raid, and teach them the mechanics, make the bosses take abit longer to kill, make the mechanics happen slower but be easier to see, and teach players how to deal with them.
    Then reward them for good habits

    This way instead of teaching players bad habits of ignoring mechanics and raids being easy, they are learning how to raid, being rewarded for doing it well, and learn the mechanics of the boss, for when they decide to pug normal if they do.
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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakozjubr View Post
    Without a doubt. Because humanity becomes more lazy and entitled with each passing year.
    I run lfr because I have other shit to do now, I used to run hard/Normal until I graduated and got a job. I'm sorry if me wanting to continue raiding during the time slot I have available is "lazy" and "entitled".

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoJ View Post
    You (and many others) seem to misunderstand. Nobody intends to make LFR "hard" just more engaging -- meaning that it should not be possible for more than half of the group to go afk while the remaining poor bastards do all the work. A lot of LFR bosses basically had the same abilities as on normal, however you could completely and totally ignore them. The "new way" is to strip the bosses of meaningless abilities and leave 1 or 2 abilities which you still have to do well -- e.g. go away from boss when he casts X or it will do high damage to you (dare I say kill you?) even on LFR. Personally I think this approach is great and makes most sense.
    "more engaging " end up horrible in lfr - we seen it on garalon we seen it on durumu / lei shen we seen it on nazrgim (was it 7 or 8 waves of nerfs and people were still wiping there because ravagers) etc

    engaging mechanics simply dont work in there beacuase its intended audience dont want to do mechanics - they will be as happy with just nuking boss while around them nice graphic effect explode but they can ignore it.

    its not lfr audience who complains about lfr - its just a few very ld dick who have no buisness even being in lfr but do this to troll people because their lives are utter pathetic shit.

    blizzard is just dumb to redo their own mistakes - there was huge blue post at the end of mop about how mechanics in lfr simply dont work so they have no other choice to make them meaningless - and now they again are destined to fail to appease few douchebags on internet.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyreRT View Post
    Or just Normal, and Heroic.
    Yeah, normal and heroic with match maker queues. There is absolutely 0 reason to maintain this "go to the raid to get in the raid" other than to maintain the status quo with a minority of a minority among raiders, already a minority.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Selvarion View Post
    I run lfr because I have other shit to do now, I used to run hard/Normal until I graduated and got a job. I'm sorry if me wanting to continue raiding during the time slot I have available is "lazy" and "entitled".
    Don't worry, he's probably from vaniller and worked for every purple he ever got /s

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That's how I understood it too. ''Not tourist mode'' doesn't mean ''hard''. It simply means that you actually have a chance of dying if you ignore the big, obvious mechanics. Which you should, even in LFR.

    Albeit I still question the wisdom of removing Desolate Host. Maiden makes more sense, it means that one bad tank doesn't wipe your raid again and again. But for the Host they could just have tuned the damage back and it would have been fine.

    I'm kinda eager to see how LFR KJ ends up being. All of his Normal mechanics are still there, nerfed a lot of course but I wanna see LFR tackle the Armageddons or the darkness phase, or see Felclaws destroy tanks who have no idea what mitigation is.
    The problem is almost never avoiding the big obvious mechanics, but the small almost second nature mechanics that eventually overwhelm the party.

    And frankly, people who run LFR don't see death as "progression". I guess that's the huge disconnect between old guard raiders and LFR players. Some people don't want to die even a few times just to get through a fucking LFR boss, when they could be doing a 5 man for near equivalent (or better) gear. Not to mention half the time the 5 mans they release end up having more story and lore than their accompanying raids.
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  15. #155
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I have allways said LFR should be a training mode

    The bosses have more health but do less damage.

    For example you enter Nighthold first wing of "training mode"
    you are paired with all the other players

    the bosses mechanics take much longer, and on your screen you are shown a raid warning

    -so along comes his focus blast, the screen then warns you "Move from focus blast when it is aimed at you" after beating the boss three times without being hit by focus blast you are rewarded a select peice of gear from said boss.

    -Along comes his adds, it then says "aoe down the adds to reduce damage to the tank" by killing 100 scorpions you then get another select peice of gear

    -Along comes his knockback "Move behind a pillar to avoid being knocked back into more mobs" Again, killing the boss twice without having this effect you, will grant you a select peice of gear.
    so on with other mechanics


    LFR should train players to raid, and teach them the mechanics, make the bosses take abit longer to kill, make the mechanics happen slower but be easier to see, and teach players how to deal with them.
    Then reward them for good habits

    This way instead of teaching players bad habits of ignoring mechanics and raids being easy, they are learning how to raid, being rewarded for doing it well, and learn the mechanics of the boss, for when they decide to pug normal if they do.
    One problem with that assumption: Majority of LFR players don't want to "graduate" into higher difficulties.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khallid View Post
    LFR being too easy is not really an issue. There's harder difficulties already.

    Making LFR harder won't increase the skill of the LFR playerbase. It will only make them wipe a lot more. People will complain a lot more.
    Do you think steamrollimg easy content makes a better player then? Most of why LFR players suck is because they have virtually no reason to care about the mechanics. The laziness will disperse if they are forced to adapt to harder content and actually learn the mechanics to get the purples.
    Last edited by thilicen; 2017-08-08 at 06:58 AM.

  17. #157
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    You're a broken record man. You make a thread about this topic once/month, pretending like LFR is the pinnacle of progression.

    They should get rid of LFR, which by itself will incentivize players to try getting into Normal runs by actually playing their class the way it should be played and by doing mechanics. The majority of LFR players have no clue what they are doing whatsoever, and LFR doesn't punish them for it, it even reinforces their antisocial habits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeepsneeft View Post
    Either go full tourist with NPC's doing most of the damage or make it a lot more like normal.
    You mean...like normal? As in: just join a Normal run? I'm reaching here mate, but making LFR more like Normal is kind of useless.

    Remove WF/TF and Legendary BLP from LFR and have it share a lockout with Normal or Heroic, this way the LFR scrubs can join their kind in the clown fiesta it's supposed to be and we can stop having these discussions.
    Last edited by mmoc112630d291; 2017-08-08 at 07:28 AM.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'm kinda eager to see how LFR KJ ends up being. All of his Normal mechanics are still there, nerfed a lot of course but I wanna see LFR tackle the Armageddons or the darkness phase, or see Felclaws destroy tanks who have no idea what mitigation is.
    I think many KJ mechanics are perfect for LFR tweaks because they are well suited to a partial success. LFR needs to work in such a way that some of the members of the group need to get it right to ensure success, but that no single member can screw the raid by making a mistake (no matter how big).

    Armageddon: Make it so that some of them have to be soaked in LFR. If 2 or 3 land the raid can survive. If they all land it will wipe the raid;
    Felclaws: Should be easy enough for tanks to survive as long as they swap. If dps want to stack on the tank, they should not survive more than 1 or 2 attacks;
    Rupturing Singularity: Knocking idiots off the platform is fine;
    Focussed Dreadflame: Should kill players if no one stacks. As long as 5+ players stack it should be fine

    Darkness Phase: Keep it as is, but with low damage to the players. As long as some players find Illidan then it should be fine

    Obelisks: Keep the damage low enough to survive easily - or remove altogether.
    Darkness of a Thousand Souls + Tear rift can stay the same, just with more leeway for surviving. Players who stand constantly in the rift should die eventually, and players who don't use the rift during Darkness of a Thousand Souls should start to die off as the fight nears the end.

  19. #159
    "There is no longer a desire to make Raid Finder a tourist mode."

    Meanwhile

    "Hey guys let's remove Maiden from Avatar's encounter lol"

    "Hey guys let's remove meteors (whatever they are called) from Goroth, such an incredible spell to deal with"

    I've gone from Mythic Raider (up to BlackHand) to Casual (since Legion), and I was astonished to note that there were A LOT of mechanics magically appearing in Normal (or disappearing in LFR, who cares).

    I'm looking forward Kil'Jaeden LFR consisting in a huge bulletsponge with no Armageddon or any transition phase, then I'll reread this Blizz statement. For the lulz.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myz View Post
    They should get rid of LFR, which by itself will incentivize players to try getting into Normal runs by actually playing their class the way it should be played and by doing mechanics.
    I'll your own words here: "You're a broken record"

    There is absolutely reason to believe that the removal of LFR would result in more players doing normal. The evidence (ie history) suggests that without LFR, raiding will simply remain an activity in which most players never participate. If anything I believe LFR actually encourages greater particaption in proper raiding because LFR gives people a taste of what real raiding can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myz View Post
    The majority of LFR players have no clue what they are doing whatsoever, and LFR doesn't punish them for it, it even reinforces their antisocial habits.
    Honestly, this is bullshit. I have done quite a bit of LFR and it is my experience that most people in LFR know more or less what they're doing. For example: Skipping trash before Cenarius actually happens sometimes because most players will go around. And even when trash is pulled it's usually only 1 or 2 players who do so. In other words 90% of the players know what they're doing.

    Also, most of the time people ignore mechanics in LFR it's not because they don't know how to do them, but because they know it doesn't matter, so they'd rather focus on doing maximum dps to finish the fight faster.

    The people who screw up/afk in LFR are in the minority. Sure, that doesn't mean most are great raiders, but they are mostly more than up to the task of what LFR requires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myz View Post
    Remove WF/TF and Legendary BLP from LFR and have it share a lockout with Normal or Heroic, this way the LFR scrubs can join their kind in the clown fiesta it's supposed to be and we can stop having these discussions.
    Terrible suggestions all around. I suggest you simply ignore LFR. Clearly you have no need to do it, so leave it to those who care while you get on doing the thing you enjoy doing

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