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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by spanishninja View Post
    comparing social norms of men and women and relating them in a biological context is not the same thing as debating about whether Jews or blacks are people, and you know this.
    The most charitable interpretation of the "men are genetically better at 'systems,' women are genetically better at 'people'" line of argument is that women who go into "systems-related" fields should be treated as exceptions to that rule unless proven otherwise, by them, to the satisfaction of their male peers. This, in itself, is sexist gatekeeping. To say nothing of the fact that this is built upon on a pretty shoddy interpretation of the underlying research, and to say nothing of the fact that this is built upon a pretty shoddy interpretation of the characterological prerequisites for success in corporate engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by spanishninja View Post
    More accurately, the author offers up these biological differences as POSSIBLE non-bias reasons that contribute to the overall gender disparity in tech.
    There's a reason why the "Just Asking Questions" line of defense for assertions made through specious reasoning is commonly abbreviated as "JAQing Off." Such rhetorical masturbation is designed to cloak an agenda, with real implications for real people, as some innocuous abstraction that no one should ever feel the need to get huffy about. It's like when Sam Harris protests "Hey I just want to talk about ideas" after arguing for religious profiling at border crossings and airports. He's not "just talking about ideas," he's talking about policy that guides a specific set of actions.

    As I said, this isn't some anodyne discussion of biology; this is a political manifesto, laying out political demands that ought to be met by the institution in question (Google) that would have material implications on the people who work there; specifically, that demand can be summarized as "stop committing so many resources to recruiting women, because <BIOTRUTHS> show that its probably wasted, and commit more resources toward recruiting people of my own ideological cohort." The rationale proceeds from that demand - it is the cart pulled by the horse - and not the other way around.

  2. #202
    It is really sad that no one actually read the memo. If you read it, you would realize it wasn't as bad as the (you guessed it) "liberal and progressive" news puts it. In fact, he embraced individuals, the company, and diversity, but not the way google forces its way towards it instead of naturally. Regardless of what you think of it, it was well written.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    Just a FYI for the millionth time. The 1st amendment (freedom of speech) and every other amendment only protects people from stuff the GOVERNMENT does to you. Google is not affiliated with the government.
    Maybe in the US, but elsewhere can be different. Here in Australia free speech is banned due to the discrimination act. People can sue you for hurt feelings.

  4. #204
    "Freedom of speech" does not force employers to employ people.

    Particularly not those whose regressive views, published on company time, go public and generate bad PR for the company. Not to mention violating their policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    The employee complained that conservatives were either ignored or ridiculed, that there is a liberal bias and that women are biologically unsuitable for certain technical roles.
    This will get you super duper fired at any job I've ever had.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Maybe in the US, but elsewhere can be different. Here in Australia free speech is banned due to the discrimination act. People can sue you for hurt feelings.
    Australia does not have an equivalent of the Bill of Rights, so we have no equivalent of the First Amendment. Free speech is protected via case law.

    Even countries that do have a Bill of Rights often have anti-discrimination laws though.

    And none of this is relevant to the actions of a private company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  5. #205
    The fact he was fired proves, in some points, that he was absolutely right.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Zubacz View Post
    I can't believe so many people on mmo-c criticise the guy's memo. You may argue, that Google as a private company can do anything it wants, but actually defending their equity policies? Wow... Looking at the skill of the players in game I knew the playerbase in dumb as fuck nowadays, but I never expected it to be as bad.
    I don't understand why people can't make the distinction between criticizing something for legally violating freedom of speech and criticizing a company for having a bad policy that you think they should change.

  7. #207
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    The ex-Googler who destroyed this dude and his "manifesto" pretty much covered it.
    Yeah, that hits the nail rather squarely on the head.

    This point specifically is one of the few points that I was referring to in my previous post in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yonatan Zunger
    One very important true statement which this manifesto makes is that male gender roles remain highly inflexible, and that this is a bug, not a feature. In fact, I suspect that this is the core bug which prompted everything else within this manifesto to be written. But the rest of the manifesto is basically about optimizing around the existence of this bug! Don’t optimize your bugs; fix them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysho View Post
    Correct. So Google has stated loudly that they do not adopt the same values that the Nation where they exist was founded upon. Which is their right as a private employer. But it certainly speaks volumes about Google's management.


    Well, they actually do, but, with a but.


    From Googles Director of Groupthink


    "Part of building an open, inclusive environment means fostering a culture in which those with alternative views, including different political views, feel safe sharing their opinions. But that discourse needs to work alongside the principles of equal employment found in our Code of Conduct, policies, and anti-discrimination laws. "

  9. #209
    Scarab Lord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    The ex-Googler who destroyed this dude and his "manifesto" pretty much covered it.
    Man, that pretty much sums it up. And just like this guy said, they promptly fired his dumb ass for creating a hostile work environment by claiming more than one third of his colleagues are exceptions or incompetent without any real factual evidence other than "muh toxic, society degrading beliefs are shunned."

    It's no wonder he's become such a poster child for conservatives. His snowflake level makes Trump look more and more reasonable.
    Last edited by Manabomb; 2017-08-08 at 07:00 AM.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    The ex-Googler who destroyed this dude and his "manifesto" pretty much covered it.
    The nugget in this blog that I found interesting was that people should punch him in the face. This phrase seems to be trendy amongst spaghetti-armed liberals who a. would never have the balls to actually punch someone. and b. If they did, it would do as much damage as a brisk breeze.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysho View Post
    The nugget in this blog that I found interesting was that people should punch him in the face. This phrase seems to be trendy amongst spaghetti-armed liberals who a. would never have the balls to actually punch someone. and b. If they did, it would do as much damage as a brisk breeze.
    Yeah, except that isn't what was written. You're flat out lying now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    The ex-Googler who destroyed this dude and his "manifesto" pretty much covered it.
    He doesn't back up anything he says in that article. I just have to take his word for it that the memo is wrong about what gender is (which he doesn't give a reason for why that is), that engineering is all about empathy and cooperation (without explaining how so) and that somehow the memo hurt people without going into detail how it did that.

    The guy writing that sounds like a typical bay area careerist liberal with a stick up his ass who wants to get some positive attention for writing a fluff piece where he blows his former employer.
    Last edited by Deletedaccount1; 2017-08-08 at 07:03 AM.

  13. #213
    Well that's interesting. Couple of hours ago I did a google image search for James Damore and there was a whole page of photos. Just did another search now and all the images are gone. Looks like the Ministry of Truth (Google) are airbrushing him out of history.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    He doesn't back up anything he says in that article. I just have to take his word for it that the memo is wrong about what gender is (which he give a reason for why that is), that engineering is all about empathy and cooperation (without explaining how so) and that somehow the memo hurt people without going into detail how it did that.

    That guy writing that sounds like a typical bay area careerist liberal with a stick up his ass who wants to get some positive attention for writing a fluff piece where he blows his former employer.
    Did you even read it? At this point you're basically skimming half the page and claiming you dislike someone for half their words. Also, epic bay area insult. Next you're going to make some clever punsult about Oregon being the beaver state, yeah? ./predictable.
    Last edited by Manabomb; 2017-08-08 at 07:06 AM.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  15. #215
    Fun fact, today I had discussions with the IT department about two projects I'm working on, in both cases the technical designer was female. And they're both really good, the kind of people you make sure you get to know so that you can get proper answers to technical questions and get shit DONE.

    This is in no way unusual or remarkable. I work in a fairly technical role and the gender split is pretty even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    The ex-Googler who destroyed this dude and his "manifesto" pretty much covered it.
    That was a good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ysho View Post
    The nugget in this blog that I found interesting was that people should punch him in the face. This phrase seems to be trendy amongst spaghetti-armed liberals who a. would never have the balls to actually punch someone. and b. If they did, it would do as much damage as a brisk breeze.
    If it makes you feel better, I promise that if you ever present such a manifesto to me I will happily punch you in the face.

    You're welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  16. #216
    Scarab Lord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysho View Post
    The nugget in this blog that I found interesting was that people should punch him in the face. This phrase seems to be trendy amongst spaghetti-armed liberals who a. would never have the balls to actually punch someone. and b. If they did, it would do as much damage as a brisk breeze.
    What he said is that doing something like that would put the individual at serious risk for something like that to happen. But I mean, twist the words if you want if that means I get to believe Trump fucks his daughter.

    See, taking words out of context is fun.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Did you even read it? At this point you're basically skimming half the page and claiming you dislike someone for half their words.
    I read the entire thing and if you somehow think he backs up any of the things I just mentioned feel free to quote it in this thread. But you can't do that because the author didn't do that.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Did you even read it? At this point you're basically skimming half the page and claiming you dislike someone for half their words.
    I mean, people did the same with the memo, so are you really that surprised?

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    The ex-Googler who destroyed this dude and his "manifesto" pretty much covered it.
    Is this guy talking about social engineering, because i know lots of engineers and he's way off the mark with this comment:

    Essentially, engineering is all about cooperation, collaboration, and empathy for both your colleagues and your customers.
    Engineers I know will tell you it's all about facts and figures.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't understand why people can't make the distinction between criticizing something for legally violating freedom of speech and criticizing a company for having a bad policy that you think they should change.
    You can criticise a company for having an inclusive policy if you like.

    I imagine it'd be at about King Cnut levels of efficacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

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