Why is M+ okay, but Raids can be outdated?

[Keashaa]

Hi,

the main purpose of M+ dungeons is to prevent dungeons from getting outdated and providing an additional end-game content.
So why is it okay that we run the same dungeons over and over and over again while raids are outdated that fast (yeah I know you can be lucky and get a titanforged proc on an EN LFR item). Do some M+, play the Broken Shore for some time and get into ToS LFR and your equip is better than NH Mythic.
Again, why does everyone praise M+? It's fucking repetition! They also made them harder during the expansion so everyone can do the same sh*t again and again.
Why not doing the same with raids? Come on, I want EN+10 with raging, necrotic and tyrannical. So one raid is enough for the addon.

[Deleted]

M+ give people something to do and work on.

Like a racing game you run the lap a thousend times, but you want to have the best stats on that lap so you going to train for it because its a challange.
To keep the engine running perfect gives some people a kick. I think it was a great addon in legion m+

[Leih]

Why not doing the same with raids? Come on, I want EN+10 with raging, necrotic and tyrannical. So one raid is enough for the addon.

They're adding a new dungeon in 7.3 and they added a new one in 7.2. It's not like they're not adding new dungeons.

[Lahis]

They wanted to make dungeons into expansion long content. With raids, there has always been atleast one raid that is relevant. Traditionally dungeons have faded into obscurity really fast once people had gotten their gear from them or raids, after which there was little to no reason to run 5mans at all.

While I am not a big fan of M+, atleast it keeps the dungeon and 5 man content relevant for whole expansion. MoP and WoD challenge modes tried to do that, but they turned into a niche content., with very few players doing them regularly and the rest just doing (or buying) them for once to get the transmog sets.

[thilicen]

Raids are endgame pve progression that takes weeks /months to complete for most guilds. Dungeons are a ways to gear up for said raids and in Legion, offer a competitive means to gearing up over raids entirely. You can't possibly compare these. They are two very different sides to pve endgame.

[VooDsXo]

I think you are comparing different kinds of design here.

Until Legion, 5 mans DID become outdated. Mythic+ is kinda giving the people who wanted to do things that rewards raid-equivalent rewards in a 5 man environment. So you have mythic+ with affixes

I doubt that would work too well with raids, due to so many different possible raid sizes. And really....what is wrong with "just" the four difficulties. Especially on Mythic, people still have something to bang their heads again. I mean..like 11 guilds cleared it so far?

Yea, I think you're referencing expansions too present in your mind. At no point did Vanilla end game dungeons become outdated, at no point did 5 mans really become outdated in BC, and for a long portion of Wotlk dungeons were very very relevant...Cataclysm the dungeons and raiding was so hard kids cried...so like MOP and WOD??? Is this your reference for dungeons becoming outdated?

[ingsve]

Raids take much more work to organize and lead so if for example a guild wanted to take mythic+ raids seriously it would probably interfere to much with their regular raid progression. Mythic+ dungeons is something that can be done much more easily on your own time without as much time investment by as many people.

[Razion]

Maybe M+ of raids could be done. I don't imagine it'd be a very comfortable environment to speed-run in, though. Maybe it could just be based on completion. Maybe it could be focused on just boss fights, and no trash, to help differentiate it more from dungeon M+? And then, do you make rewards equal to dungeon M+ or greater? Would making them higher trivialized the point of dungeon M+? Would 20m M+ Raiding be used as a stepping stone to something 'bigger' than 20m raiding, like 40m raiding... or something else? Would M+ raiding even be 20m, or would it be 40m and scaled up, to make it harder for "class stacking" to be less effective in this competitive mode? Would M+ raiding be something you queue for, in order to help organize that many players (be it 20 or 40)?

It does stand to reason that raid tiers that "aren't the current" do get left behind. Having scaleable tech like in the BT timewalking applied to older raids as well for M+ Timewalking could make for interesting competitions and a lot more variety of content to do, if we're talking purely about quantity of "fresh difficulty" content. Do we then allow ALL content, however old, to be scaleable up to M+ difficulty, or keep it within the current expansion to focus on the setting and current threats and encounters?

Would M+ Raiding have new unique affixes or would it really just reuse all of the same dungeon affixes?
Are the current number of affixes enough, or should there be new sets of affixes for each expansion?

[Lahis]

Yea, I think you're referencing expansions too present in your mind. At no point did Vanilla end game dungeons become outdated,

Vanilla was very different beast. People's gear progression was all over the spectrum. It's also over 10 year old, dead game so it doesn't apply anymore.

at no point did 5 mans really become outdated in BC,

Badge farm kept dungeons (and Karazhan) alive for the expansion, but people eventually outgeared them so in that front they were useless.

and for a long portion of Wotlk dungeons were very very relevant...

Again, mostly just for badge farming.

Cataclysm the dungeons and raiding was so hard kids cried...

Cataclysm demonstrated the problem on introducing new, unscalable dungeons: ZG and ZA made original instances obsolete, leavign us with two 5mans to do, and then 4.3 dungeons made those two obsolete, leaving us with 3 dungeons for 8 months.

so like MOP and WOD??? Is this your reference for dungeons becoming outdated?

MoP and WoD were the expansions where LFR was available for the whole expansion (Cata had only Dragon Soul) and that truly made 5 mans obsolete after the first LFR wing opened. LFR gave better gear and it was just as easy to queue to it as it were to 5mans.

[Deleted]

There are countless issues.

M+ works because dungeons are short. How should a m+ raid look like? One weekly lockout? Should it be flex or fixed size?

Some mechanics scale pretty well with increased difficulty, others dont. You wanna do TOS with 2 hours timer and loot only if you kill KJ? Or do the first bosses as difficult as possible and then leave? What about trash?

Mythic + has big balancing issues. Raiding would become a big mess up. Like people ignoring COEN and kara because they are more difficult. Forcing us to run EVERY raid, so 2 years EN, not like 4-6 months like now.

I could find a lot of problems i didnt mention yet. This coukd destroy the raiding scene.

[Lahis]

There are countless issues.

M+ works because dungeons are short. How should a m+ raid look like? One weekly lockout? Should it be flex or fixed size?

Some mechanics scale pretty well with increased difficulty, others dont. You wanna do TOS with 2 hours timer and loot only if you kill KJ? Or do the first bosses as difficult as possible and then leave? What about trash?

Mythic + has big balancing issues. Raiding would become a big mess up. Like people ignoring COEN and kara because they are more difficult. Forcing us to run EVERY raid, so 2 years EN, not like 4-6 months like now.

I could find a lot of problems i didnt mention yet. This coukd destroy the raiding scene.

Tyrannical, Quaking and Grievous M15 raid sounds peachy.

[Deleted]

Please don't make Raids M+...

I absolutely LOVE dungeon m+ because they are easy to coordinate and provide a good challenge at high enough levels. With the m+ score, they also give a bit of prestige, even for the non-top-world guilds.

But that would not fly at all for raids. I'd rather have new raids that you can progress through until the next raid comes out than running the same raid over and over again after you have already cleared it.

The only time where this MIGHT be an acceptable solution would be end-of-expansion to allow Blizz devs to concentrate on the new expansion while still having somewhat meaningful raid content.

[Ophenia]

Because that totally makes sense that Heimdall and Hyrja destroy your ass in HoV+20 while you faceroll them in ToV, same for Xavius and his shadow

[Deleted]

Because that totally makes sense that Heimdall and Hyrja destroy your ass in HoV+20 while you faceroll them in ToV, same for Xavius and his shadow

You're playing a game with power concessions for gameplay reasons all over the show, and this is the bit that annoys you?

[Deleted]

Because that totally makes sense that Heimdall and Hyrja destroy your ass in HoV+20 while you faceroll them in ToV, same for Xavius and his shadow

ToV can't be facerolled the way NH and EN can.

[Supakitch]

EN, ToV and NH are not outdated or pointless. Non-repeatable content such as raids are BLP boosters. Doing as many lockouts that you can on each difficulty will greatly boost your legendary production; so no, these raids are not pointless. Sure they offer a lower base ilvl, but it has been that way for every expansion except this one where you have the ability to roll that 915 BTI and obtain legendaries. No one is forcing you to spam M+. I don't see the point of this post to be honest. If you think it is repetitive content and not worth your time then don't do it. Yes this statement is overused but it applies here. Why complain about sometging that you don't want to do in the first place?



As for the dungeons and M+. Affixes help keep dungeons fresh so it's not the same experience every time you run it. By now we have all run these dungeons hundreds of times, and while different affixes demand different strategies and gameplay, it still feels a bit lackluster. Timewalking dungeons helps shake things up, giving us different dungeons to do but in the end still feels as repetitive/boring/necessary (for the seal and box). This past weekend I leveled up new characters with friends exclusively through dungeons, so far from Classic to Cata. While I've also done those dungeons hundreds of times, it was refreshing for something different and quite nostalgic as well. Pretty much all of these dungeons are rotting, aside from the ones that drop mounts. Why not add some of these older dungeons into M+ during the Timewalking rotation? It wouldn't have to be all of them, just the 6ish dungeons that we do get when Timewalking is available. I think it would breathe some fresh air into M+ and possibly attract more people to do it but who knows.. it just feels bad seeing so much content be wasted when there is so much potential opportunity. I personally would love to do a M+ Shattered Halls or Nexus. Just my 2 cents.

[david0925]

On top of what everyone has already mentioned, people also like taking a break from progressing in cutting edge raids.

Imagine spending 3-6 months progressing on bosses to finish progression and get things into farm mode (where you take a break for the next patch). Raid+ is going to basically make progression everlasting and that's going to burn out whatever little is left of the mythic raiding community.