There is no longer a desire to make Raid Finder a tourist mode.

[Deleted]

I would not really care about LFR difficulty IF they stopped the fucking "forcing" mechanisms... At least they have already stopped AP being an incentive. If they also removed the augment runes, the Legendary BLP and made Boss missions count all already killed bosses for any given raid ID, then they could do whatever they wanted with LFR because I would never ever do them again.

This by itself would already make LFR more difficult because people would not be carried by overgeared mythic / heroic raiders any more.

But I guess then the LFR crowd would suddenly realize that those that they constantly bash as "Elitists" are actually 95% of what makes their LFR experience as it is...

[Mlz]

Terrible suggestions all around. I suggest you simply ignore LFR. Clearly you have no need to do it, so leave it to those who care while you get on doing the thing you enjoy doing

I don't think LFR should be removed but the whole TF/WF crap does leave a bad taste in my mouth at least. I did LFR on my main the other week to help someone with gearing (we share the same loot) and I got an upgrade while being 920+ ilvl equipped myself. It felt so bad.

[Deleted]

The people who screw up/afk in LFR are in the minority. Sure, that doesn't mean most are great raiders, but they are mostly more than up to the task of what LFR requires.

Yeah... I'd disagree with this. I so hope they try it some time: Take away all incentives for overgeared people to join LFR and then see how "up to the task" those are that actually ONLY do LFR...

[Zuben]

MoP had a sweet spot they ruined in WoD. Glad to see the message finally got through.

[FelPlague]

One problem with that assumption: Majority of LFR players don't want to "graduate" into higher difficulties.

then it changes nothing, they can still use it to see the content, it effects them in no different way
but those who want to get better can use it to train them

[kamuimac]

MoP had a sweet spot they ruined in WoD. Glad to see the message finally got through.

ye and its because it was in "sweet spot" they madeat the end of mop elaborate blue wall about why and how they will change lfr because it was filing due to being to difficult .

im sure turning it 180 degrees will end up as good as removing tier sets only to put them back expansion later and admiting removing it was a mistake

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then it changes nothing, they can still use it to see the content, it effects them in no different way
but those who want to get better can use it to train them

those who want to get better should gtfo of lfr and do normal which is exackly a mode for those who "want to get better" - those people have no buisness in lfr

[FelPlague]

ye and its because it was in "sweet spot" they madeat the end of mop elaborate blue wall about why and how they will change lfr because it was filing due to being to difficult .

im sure turning it 180 degrees will end up as good as removing tier sets only to put them back expansion later and admiting removing it was a mistake

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[/B]

those who want to get better should gtfo of lfr and do normal which is exackly a mode for those who "want to get better" - those people have no buisness in lfr

Except moving into Normal without knowing the mechanics can be hostile, one fuckup and your out, high ilvl requirments in most groups, and why would we not want to better train our noobies?

[Raelbo]

I don't think LFR should be removed but the whole TF/WF crap does leave a bad taste in my mouth at least. I did LFR on my main the other week to help someone with gearing (we share the same loot) and I got an upgrade while being 920+ ilvl equipped myself. It felt so bad.

Why did it feel so bad? Surely getting gear upgrades is a good thing? Certainly I would never feel bad about getting a gear upgrade from LFR - I'd simply consider such things as part of the bigger picture. Sometimes you get lucky, other times you get unlucky. A 920 item from LFR is karma for all those times you didn't get the piece of gear you wanted from another format.

All that being said, there have been very few times this expansion that even one of my slots has had an LFR piece (and I don't even raid mythic so it's not like my gear is super-awesome).

Honestly, I cannot understand the reason why some "real" raiders have an issue with WF/TF in LFR (actually that's not entirely, I do understand the reason, I just don't agree with the reasoning). So what if there is a small chance that, as a mythic raider, you can potentially get a small upgrade from LFR? There are still many, many better ways of achieving gear upgrades without touching LFR.

If you have time after your mythic progression, go do heroic. If you still have time, go do normal. If you still have time, do some mythic+. These will all yield better gear, more AP, more chances at legendaries. And even if you have done all these things for the week, it still doesn't compel you to do LFR. Sure, LFR is probably the next best option from what remains, but even so, activities like world quests (especially the emissary), regular mythic dungeons, hell even your first random heroic for the day, all give you chances at gear/AP/chance at legendaries that are not that much worse than LFR. And if you've done everything else and the only thing left to do is LFR, then IMO be thankful that LFR is there at all....

[Mlz]

Why did it feel so bad? Surely getting gear upgrades is a good thing? Certainly I would never feel bad about getting a gear upgrade from LFR - I'd simply consider such things as part of the bigger picture. Sometimes you get lucky, other times you get unlucky. A 920 item from LFR is karma for all those times you didn't get the piece of gear you wanted from another format.

All that being said, there have been very few times this expansion that even one of my slots has had an LFR piece (and I don't even raid mythic so it's not like my gear is super-awesome).

Honestly, I cannot understand the reason why some "real" raiders have an issue with WF/TF in LFR (actually that's not entirely, I do understand the reason, I just don't agree with the reasoning). So what if there is a small chance that, as a mythic raider, you can potentially get a small upgrade from LFR? There are still many, many better ways of achieving gear upgrades without touching LFR.

If you have time after your mythic progression, go do heroic. If you still have time, go do normal. If you still have time, do some mythic+. These will all yield better gear, more AP, more chances at legendaries. And even if you have done all these things for the week, it still doesn't compel you to do LFR. Sure, LFR is probably the next best option from what remains, but even so, activities like world quests (especially the emissary), regular mythic dungeons, hell even your first random heroic for the day, all give you chances at gear/AP/chance at legendaries that are not that much worse than LFR. And if you've done everything else and the only thing left to do is LFR, then IMO be thankful that LFR is there at all....

Tier/trinkets from ToS are better than the vast majority of gear you can get from elsewhere. I've always disliked the huge amount of WF/TF, regardless of difficulty. I like being able to at least semi-complete my gear, I truly don't find getting random upgrades from random content very exciting, it also increased gear inflation and causes those 'need 930+ for 10+ M' groups that people whine about. Also, I don't raid mythic and I haven't even done ToS HC to be fair so even if LFR gear upgrades by a small amount, chances are that it's better than the stuff I have from normal currently. I just feel such mixing of difficulties and rewards weird - also, why do LFR (or any difficulty) players even need gear that greatly exceeds the needs of the content they are doing? Even in SoO when the raid was out for absolutely ages and people farmed it till their eyes were bleeding I knew absolutely ZERO people with full set of WF gear. People time to time bring up that there's only a small chance for an upgrade but I'd say it's not that small at all - I myself am an example and I've seen plenty of people getting majorly TF/WF items while doing trivial content.

TLDR; it feels like it's not a game where progress=reward but rather a lottery where having smaller bets gives you only a slightly smaller chance to win (but still a chance to win as much as someone who bets 10x as much as you).

[Twdft]

Tier/trinkets from ToS are better than the vast majority of gear you can get from elsewhere.

I only raid HC and feel there is nothing whatsoever that compells me to set foot into LfR. Normal mode was cleared the very first reset, average ilvl from HC Nighthold was already high enough to disenchant most of normal ToS gear so why go LfR two weeks later? Missing 4set or some low ilvl trinket doesn't stop anyone from progressing HC. And if your mythic progress is hindered by not having LfR items I don't even know what to say.

The time it takes to do LfR after all other methods of gear improvement available just isn't worth it at all. I don't even do it on Alts.

[beelgers]

TLDR; it feels like it's not a game where progress=reward but rather a lottery where having smaller bets gives you only a slightly smaller chance to win (but still a chance to win as much as someone who bets 10x as much as you).

This is an excellent analogy and really clarifies for me the reasons I hate the loot system in Legion.

[Raelbo]

Tier/trinkets from ToS are better than the vast majority of gear you can get from elsewhere. I've always disliked the huge amount of WF/TF, regardless of difficulty. I like being able to at least semi-complete my gear, I truly don't find getting random upgrades from random content very exciting, it also increased gear inflation and causes those 'need 930+ for 10+ M' groups that people whine about. Also, I don't raid mythic and I haven't even done ToS HC to be fair so even if LFR gear upgrades by a small amount, chances are that it's better than the stuff I have from normal currently. I just feel such mixing of difficulties and rewards weird - also, why do LFR (or any difficulty) players even need gear that greatly exceeds the needs of the content they are doing? Even in SoO when the raid was out for absolutely ages and people farmed it till their eyes were bleeding I knew absolutely ZERO people with full set of WF gear. People time to time bring up that there's only a small chance for an upgrade but I'd say it's not that small at all - I myself am an example and I've seen plenty of people getting majorly TF/WF items while doing trivial content.

TLDR; it feels like it's not a game where progress=reward but rather a lottery where having smaller bets gives you only a slightly smaller chance to win (but still a chance to win as much as someone who bets 10x as much as you).

Me, I also don't raid mythic. I am very much a casual player. We tend to clear heroic at a slower rate than the LFR bosses come out. And like I already said, I've maybe had about 2 LFR items that have made it into my equipped gear since the start of Legion, and even those haven't tended to remain for very long before being replaced with normal or heroic items. Not saying it's impossible, of course it's possible, but it's just unlikely to make a very big difference.

Also, as a player who isn't doing mythic raiding, there is no *need* for getting BiS trinkets/tier items. It's a nice-to-have. Sure by all means use LFR to get it if you want to, but you should not feel obliged to go there. If it's a grudge decision to go farm LFR then you're doing it wrong. Rather leave it alone and do something you enjoy more.

And yes, I get that maybe for you it feels like doing LFR is a good bet for getting good gear, but then I would argue that your perceptions are biased towards what is actually unrealistic. The reality is that LFR gear isn't going to make much of a difference for anyone raiding higher difficulty levels, and certainly not nearly enough to "force" anyone who doesn't want to be there to do it...

[mysticx]

Except moving into Normal without knowing the mechanics can be hostile, one fuckup and your out, high ilvl requirments in most groups, and why would we not want to better train our noobies?

Well, training newcomers is one of those "Not in my back yard"-things, everybody agrees that the game needs more skilled players, but nobody wants the inconvenience of having to teach anybody, that's why a lot of people stick to LfR: You can pretty much jump in there and figure things out as you go along, only a few counterintuitive mechanics (Jumping into the pit at maiden when you have "unstable soul") aside, it's all pretty obvious at first glance, and you don't get some random brat yelling at you over voice chat how you're ruining "His raid", sure there's the text chat, but that's easier to ignore :P

[Osmeric]

Do you think steamrollimg easy content makes a better player then? Most of why LFR players suck is because they have virtually no reason to care about the mechanics. The laziness will disperse if they are forced to adapt to harder content and actually learn the mechanics to get the purples.

Hint: it's not the purpose of LFR to make "better players".

[Donald Hellscream]

Thats great as long as it isn't like Garalon, that boss was a living nightmare in LFR.

[ablib]

I only "raid" LFR, and this is a welcome change for me. I miss having some sense of difficulty in LFR...and I'm as casual as you can get. Cata and MoP difficulty was best. Stood in the wrong place on Spine of Deathwing? Off you go. Can't do the Durumu maze? You die. To me it was fun getting 10 stacks of determination when a Raid Finder wing was released. It gave me a sense of progression that I haven't had since I quit actual raiding.

[Katchii]

If they got rid of LFR and made Normal mode queueable I wouldn't have a problem. I like the brainless hit a button, get into raid, ability that LFR provides and don't care about higher difficulties but I do want there to be SOME kind of effort involved in getting a clear. It should feel somewhat meaningful. Ever since playing FFXIV I've never understood why LFR has to be braindead easy. Every kind of content in FFXIV is queueable in a random group. The highest difficulty isn't queuable as a random match making type thing at first, you have to have a premade full group, but it eventually gets there. The normal mode fights are tuned well and are easy as long as everyone pays attention and knows how to play their job.

Why can't LFR be the same way? But honestly, why can't normal just be queueable?

[Twdft]

But honestly, why can't normal just be queueable?

Because it would then suffer from people trolling and afk'ing just as LfR is now.

[Jtbrig7390]

If they got rid of LFR and made Normal mode queueable I wouldn't have a problem. I like the brainless hit a button, get into raid, ability that LFR provides and don't care about higher difficulties but I do want there to be SOME kind of effort involved in getting a clear. It should feel somewhat meaningful. Ever since playing FFXIV I've never understood why LFR has to be braindead easy. Every kind of content in FFXIV is queueable in a random group. The highest difficulty isn't queuable as a random match making type thing at first, you have to have a premade full group, but it eventually gets there. The normal mode fights are tuned well and are easy as long as everyone pays attention and knows how to play their job.

Why can't LFR be the same way? But honestly, why can't normal just be queueable?

Well said and I 100% agree.

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Because it would then suffer from people trolling and afk'ing just as LfR is now.

Then kick those people...

If u afk/troll in FFXIV's queable raids you get removed.

[Raelbo]

I only "raid" LFR, and this is a welcome change for me. I miss having some sense of difficulty in LFR...and I'm as casual as you can get. Cata and MoP difficulty was best. Stood in the wrong place on Spine of Deathwing? Off you go. Can't do the Durumu maze? You die. To me it was fun getting 10 stacks of determination when a Raid Finder wing was released. It gave me a sense of progression that I haven't had since I quit actual raiding.

Durumu LFR was awesome

I have very fond memories of beating him several times with 5 or 6 of us having to really play well to finish off the last 30%. That being said, I also remember a few times where there weren't enough of us able to execute the maze phase to be able to kill the boss, and eventually winning by having enough stacks of determination to nuke him before the maze...

I would overall that Durumu was not a great example of how LFR should be done because that particular mechanic was beyond what most LFR raiders could handle, or be expected to learn within the LFR environment. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with fatal LFR mechanics, but they need to be easy enough to avoid.

Good examples of appropriate LFR "death mechanics":

• Standing in Gul'dan's Fel Efflux for the full duration
• Getting hit by Elerethe when she comes down from her web
• Falling into the felwater when Krosus breaks the bridge

Good examples of inappropriate LFR "death mechanics":

• Arcentic Rings one-shotting people - it should take some serious effort to killed by those in LFR
• Nythendra's breath one shotting you (as long as you move out of it before the end, most players should survive this in LFR)
• Krosus's beam (in LFR this mechanic should be there to give the healers something to do. If too many fail on the beam then people might start dying simply due to healers not being able to keep up)
• Krosus's Orb of Destruction (don't punish the raid for one person's fail...)

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Why can't LFR be the same way? But honestly, why can't normal just be queueable?

Queueable and challenging content are mutually exclusive. LFR only works because it can be reliably completed by people in the 30th percentile.