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  1. #21
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-angeL View Post
    thats not what i wanted to at all. I wanted to illustrate that you could have the pre sundering architecture (aka stone mason architecture) and still get a natureish look and vibe without living inside trees or wooden houses. And I think todays Azsuna is a good example for this, even though it probably looked a lot more like Suramar City back in the day.
    Night elves don't want to build big stone cities anymore. They live more modestly, and down-to-earth.

  2. #22
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-angeL View Post
    Just to get my facts straight, I thought the nightelves evolved from trolls about 15,000 years ago and the Sundering happened 10,000 years ago, meaning the nightelves live in northern Kalimdor for at least twice as long as their kaldorei empire lasted.

    Every night elven influenced zone on the Broken Isles has at least one temple of the moon and this somewhat confuses me, because on Kalimdor there are only 3 zones with temples which were suggested to be destroyed during the Sundering and only one that is still being used, which was just recently built. I mean the one in Darnassus.

    I always figured the Sisterhood’s importance rose after the Sundering, since the high priestress now leads the night elves, so why is there not a single temple of the moon on nightelven territory after the Sundering?

    And why do they have barely any proper settlements if they had twice the time they had to build their grand empire? Why aren’t there more houses styled like those in Suramar or Azsuna if basicly the same people live there?
    Darnassus has quite a large Temple of the Moon, made out of masonry in the same fashion of the ancient Night Elven temple-complexes such as Eldarath, Eldre'thalas, and Seradane. The Sisterhood of the Moon seemed to be quite important even before the Sundering, as well; the ancient Night Elven society seemed to be organized into a rough tripod of socially influential groups such as the Highborne (headed by the Queen), the Sisterhood (headed by its current High Priestess) and the Moon Guard (headed by its commanding officer). These groups were largely autonomous but still had fealty to the reigning monarch such as Queen Azshara - their relative autonomy was what permitted them to stand against Azshara when she changed her loyalty to the Legion.

    As for settlements after the Sundering, the Night Elven society became largely stagnant during the Long Vigil as their society became ruled by the Druids and the Priesthood of Elune. Being immortal and bound to the World Tree in a pact of protection (and penance) the Night Elves did not expand nor seek to reconstitute their ancient empire. They remained in Kalimdor and largely confined to Hyjal, the Sentinels and Priestesses maintaining their vigil over the World Tree and Azeroth as a whole while the Druids slumbered in the Emerald Dream and assisted Ysera. Circumstances were such that the far-flung remnants of the empire such as Suramar or Eldre'thalas were also confined - the shield serving the role for Suramar and the Pylons (and Immol'thar) doing much the same for Eldre'thalas.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  3. #23
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-angeL View Post
    thats not what i wanted to at all. I wanted to illustrate that you could have the pre sundering architecture (aka stone mason architecture) and still get a natureish look and vibe without living inside trees or wooden houses. And I think todays Azsuna is a good example for this, even though it probably looked a lot more like Suramar City back in the day.
    Well, as long you're willing to let weeds infestate your buildings than yes, I suppose?

    Point is, that's not "natureish" at all. It's stone buildings suffering the obvious effects of abandonment. If you actually want to build a civilization strongly tied to nature than you come up with buildings that effectively mesh up with it. The Azsuna buildings weren't built with such mindset in mind and not a single blade of grass would have grown on them as long people lived within them. That would be true even if modern Night Elves lived there. Pretty sure we'll never see Darnassus reduced in similar conditions until the day Night Elves will not live there anymore.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    I think immortality, plus a sizable number of males being sleeping for ages, made the kaldorei stop increasing their numbers. They started from scratch after the sundering, became more reliant on their nature allies and stopped to spread their civilization, mostly keeping themselves within their forests. The second coming of the Legion and the loss imortality brought them back into the world, so to speak. They probably have been more active these last two decades than they were over the last 10,000 years.
    yes, this is pretty much right. All civilization endeavours end with the sundering. I think with the night elves blizzard wanted to give us a picture of group that had reached the height of civilization on this world. Once you've gotten their and done what they done, and the end result was the destruction of the world rather than the beautification of it, it's kinda like "what's the point of building stuff"?

    still, I do suspect the main motivations for the shift is preventing the legion's return. They built their marvels combining arcane magic of their best casters with the druidic magic of the Ancients of wind/lore etc. With arcane magic banned in order to prevent the legion's return, they could exactly rebuild. Then they threw themselves into the long vigil and the pact with Ysera's flight, almost like a sort of penance for their folly that brought the legion.

    Without the arcane, nature sufficed, and they rediscovered they didn't need all the fancy magic anyway to carry out their task.. or rather, it was too dangerous to use the fancy magic, as useful or beneficial as it could have been. I say this because Darth'remar, Illidan, many of the Zin'Azshari highborne with them, wanted them to start rebuilding. Illidan's reason for reconstituting the well of eternity was to give them the magical power to rebuild , get stronger and have the power defeat the legion on second return. Malfurion's philosophy was different, and he had Cenarius' full backing too. Don't use arcane magic at all, that way , no chance the legion would return, and as nice as the benefits of it are, seeing what happened in the end (addiction, Azshara's madness, the Legion, world destruction) we are probably ... actually we are definitely better without it. Remember in WotA trilogy, hwas a pariah because he heavily criticised the lifestyle of the night elves and warned of the dangers the excesses of their lifestyle and use of the Well was causing to their spiritual and mental health. He lived just on the outskirts of Suramar City, so he was not a big fan of what magic usage had done to the elves.. or rather arcane addiction as we now know.

    With the risk of the Legion returning the biggest factor outweighing every benefit of using the arcane, they chose caution over power... their opponents labelling it cowardice, they calling their calls for the arcane reckless. Seeing as how Malfurion had just saved the world, the majority of the survivors and races of Azeroth listened to him instead of Darth'remar or Illidan who had just been branded a traitor, albeit mistakenly.

    Quote Originally Posted by InDecisive View Post
    Because they're done doing grand empires, they live in the forest and shun empire building and dangerous magic.
    nutshell answer. This is prob what marks them as quite wise too. You notice there is a grittiness and maturity to them versus their highborne or nightborne counterparts that are still enthralled by scintillating magics and powers.. almost as if they haven't grown up yet. But then both those 2 groups of night elves isolated themselves in their perfect cities where the lights never went out (well for Dire Maul the lights eventually did go out, but not for Suramar).

    but its more than shun empire building, and more of duty to guard the world from the terror their folly brought. The northern kalimdor night elves are the only group of the 3 night elven groups that had to live with the full consequences of a shattered world. With the ones in Suramar, at least they had the excuse that they believed Azeroth overrun with demons and destroyed- they actually believed this, but the Eldre'thalas ones, they were fully aware of what was happening everywhere, we are told in Dire maul they've been scrying on the entire world, gathering knowledge and information and doing squat with it, indulging their intellectual curiosity - they've been fully aware of all the horrible events, they didn't even budge during the 3rd war, but there might be a good reason for that. If I remember, it was them spying out Deathwings terrible plan and the impending cataclysm that forced the better ones out, that and Queen Azshara also returning to court them/press them back into her service, something they also rejected but knew they couldn't fight an invasion of naga - so they then chose to reach out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Azsuna was built by Kaldorei empire before the Sundering. The area was likely metropolitan like Suramar city, with no real untouched nature within, only some gardens. Those plants you see on the ruins have grown on them after they were abandoned an no-one were there to take care of them.

    you can't compare pre-Sundering and post-Sundering Kaldorei civilizations and say they were the same. They hold completely different values.
    pretty much this. Pre-sundering kaldorei civilization continues in the nightborne. They are basically blizzard weaving the kaldorei empire night elves back into modern Azeroth affairs without the need to actually change the post-sundering kaldorei.


    Don't forget though, that Azsuna IS part of Suramar. All of what we (humans and the younger modern world call the broken isles) is Suramar to the night elves of which the city (part of which is sank, but a good portion of which was saved) is the capital of the country. Nar'thalas was an academy city, and one of several in the region, the place gets more urbanized the closer you get to Suramar City itself, as you can tell by the ruins. I counted at least 10 night elf cities moving out from suramar and spanning to the northern most part of high mountain.

    The kaldorei druids who stayed in Valsharah seem very ancient and isolated from their northern kalimdor brethren, the forests haven't heard Malfurion's footsteps in a very long time, and since we had no access to val'sharh, it is clear much of druidc activity on azeroth was happening in Stonetalon mountain and Hyjal rather than Val'sharah - which is also full of ruins inter mixed with tree homes. Interesting the priestesses didn't see it fit to repair the temples for 10 k years, but i don't think those lot have left val'sharah in 10 k years.. afterall it was like the prettiest and most verdant forest that most mirrored the dream, why would you visit arcane warped Suramar, or haunted Azsuna, tauren filled highmountain or storm cursed Stormheim? Those citizens only flee val'sharah when the nightmare overhelms the zone and heading back to their ancient captial, even if arcane warped is better than staying in crazy druid nightmare land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Darnassus has quite a large Temple of the Moon, made out of masonry in the same fashion of the ancient Night Elven temple-complexes such as Eldarath, Eldre'thalas, and Seradane(I think that's just in game models, as those temples are tiny, looking at the Arcways and Falanar, as well as the Cathedral of Eternal night, those are more like the size of what the temples should actually be like.. we all know vanilla out door zones are not made to scale, but were significantly reduced in size for scaling reasons with the outdoor world.. in 2015 the art team has significantly improved which is why we have far better depictions of their civilization in the broken isles - also broken isle ruins seem far more intact than anywhere else on Azeroth leading to Suramar itself which has been fully preserved in its glroy . The Sisterhood of the Moon seemed to be quite important even before the Sundering, as well; the ancient Night Elven society seemed to be organized into a rough tripod of socially influential groups such as the Highborne (headed by the Queen), the Sisterhood (headed by its current High Priestess) and the Moon Guard (headed by its commanding officer). These groups were largely autonomous but still had fealty to the reigning monarch such as Queen Azshara - their relative autonomy was what permitted them to stand against Azshara when she changed her loyalty to the Legion.

    As for settlements after the Sundering, the Night Elven society became largely stagnant during the Long Vigil as their society became ruled by the Druids and the Priesthood of Elune (actually the society was entirely ruled by the priesthood and its leader Tyrande, the druids played little to no role in this, although when he was awake Malfurion's word carried much weight.. but apart from the decisions made just after the sundering, Malfurion and his druids de themselves to the world and nature, not the night elven people, they sleep for millennia at a time fulfilling faithfully their pact with the green flight, guiding the evolution of the world through the emerald dream and suppressing the use of arcane magic from atop stonetalon mountain (including shrouding kalimdor in mists 0 which is why no one could find it till Medivh led Jaina and Thrall there. to save their races and join the night elves in foiling the legion's invasion.). Being immortal and bound to the World Tree in a pact of protection (and penance) the Night Elves did not expand nor seek to reconstitute their ancient empire. They remained in Kalimdor and largely confined to Hyjal, the Sentinels and Priestesses maintaining their vigil over the World Tree and Azeroth as a whole while the Druids slumbered in the Emerald Dream and assisted Ysera. Circumstances were such that the far-flung remnants of the empire such as Suramar or Eldre'thalas were also confined - the shield serving the role for Suramar and the Pylons (and Immol'thar) doing much the same for Eldre'thalas.
    very good summary, btw, just slight commentary and very minor correction on the leadership point, but pretty much this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Night elves don't want to build big stone cities anymore. They live more modestly, and down-to-earth.
    i'm not so sure this true any longer , even for the majority of night elves. I know it is true for the drudis, but that is a discipline thing. With the return of first the highborne, and now Suramar not lost, the return of the arcane as well, younger night elves have many options that were forbidden or denied them now available.

    I can't imaginei those who've flocked to learn arcane magic under the tuetelage of highborne such as Estulan (in Feralas) and others will be content with down to earth. As a night elf adventurer, wanderlust has grabbed a hold of you, you're not content to stay isolated in the forest like your kin have been.. it also likely you would be fascinated with your past - all you've likely heard of is how terrible the legion was and how your pride caused it all, you've only ever seen ruins, but never seen how great and the many good aspects of that life was either.

    Having experienced the good things of nature, you'd likely be inspired to the great things the arcane brings, especially if you go to your people's ancient city of Suramar not in ruins. Coming across withered would be a stack reminder of the folly of the arcane, but if you did get to meet the likes of Farodin, Thalyssra, Lothrius, Valtrois and many of the nightborne and moonguard, you would see many positive things and great things that could be a part of a new life for you that doesn't have to reject completely the natural affinity to the arcane that runs through your blood and the love for nature that is intrinsic in your people.

    This would change night elf society a little but not by much. I think the advent of the nightbone was to actually bring a night elven group in the pre-sundering arcane empire tradition that could continue in the current world without having to change the current night elves.

    so effectively , nightborne would essentially be kaldorei empire elves continued on, while night elves would continue largely in the WC3 vein. But bear in mind this is a dynamic world, and all races develop, and change in different ways. For night elves they've re-introduced many elements of their past, seeing how night elf and nightborne interact would be interesting because for night elves it would be meeting with their past which would have elements that have changed since the horror of the legion , espieclaly after the events of Legion expansion, for the nightborne it would also be an interesting experience as they've so revered their kaldorei heritage which they are immensely proud of and consider themselves or rather until the shield came down, considered themselves the only survivors - naturally the continuation of that legacy, now confronted with the lot they revere so much and discovering they survived, and what their life is like without magic.. and dealing with that.

    it could realy be an interesting time for the night elf world. On the one hand, magic solves everything for the nightborne - this is the highborne way and the way of pre-sundering night elf kind. To find their kin in such a basic state would be shell shocking (we see Elisande very contemptuouf that, but Silgryn and Victroire oddly respectful) because when you look closer at the current kaldorei, they've done phenomenal things without arcane magic, including surviving 10k years, being in perfect health, no twisting, and they actually beat the legion twice - so they look like they're nothing compared to what they were before, and yet ... they've done things even the nightborne (with all the kaldorei empire knowledge and mastery of magic) could not do.

    It can be such a fascinating interaction, and actually for me, it potentially makes the night elf world very interesting again. No longer stagnant on one sided only - bringing back the past, the pain, but also the good bits in the back drop of the recent struggles, how do you move on? how would both groups influence each other?

    Surely some nightborne would love to reconnect with nature again and eager to press into the world and announce the kaldoeri empire is back, (now the shal'dorei have returned), but ofc the world have met their kind already, a very different version.. which they also have to deal with. No doubt some will entirely despise that existence despite all the achievements.. but we mustn't interchange kaldorei life and druidic life - they may have been similar, but they are not the same, and since the 3rd war they have greatly deviated. tHe nature existence is more a hallmark of druidsm, not kaldorei who put up with it when arcane magic was banned. It is druids alone that will continue in a nature pure existence, there is no reason any kaldorei of any other discipline or order would feel the need to shun everything but total embrace of nature.

    Then there is the preithood, also greatly downplayed amongst the kaldorei who got swallowed up in this druid image in wow, how would the priesthood affect the nightborne? The Cathedral is finally cleansed after ToS, it is the order's most holy site, and they would obviously see to the restoration of the temple and the cleansing of the whole area.. I mean if Tyrande would leave her husband she was so distraught over during the Val'sharah questline to rush back and defend the temple of her goddess, I can't see her order not fixing up their most holy site. Then there is the matter of the nightborne. Thalyssra seems to have taken Tyrande's advice, but though we haven't seen the priesthood itself in the capacity as priests minister to their lost kin, the possibility has to be ther.

    The entity Elune is central to the cosmos, and in the wake of dealing with titans, old gods, etc, the reality and the power of the goddess wielded by her believers is bound to reignite some faith in some nightborne. Just as some chose to follow demons when they returned, it is likely that there are those who will follow the goddess with the return of the priesthood.

    Will blizzard make shal'dorei society mirror the kaldorei empire with the arcane, priesthood and nature all interwoven? then keep the northern kalimdor night elves in a simpler purer more nature state that we met them in?

    All interesting questions I'd love to find out. Shame there is no book on the night elves post Legion and the return of Suramar to the modern world. IT would be interesting to see them explore this reunion.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Night elves don't want to build big stone cities anymore. They live more modestly, and down-to-earth.
    Mind to give any reason? Because they should realize that they need to advance their civilization again: The Legion is being dealt with, so no reason not to lift that vigil. If they don’t develop further as a race they will sooner or later be wiped out. If they don’t start procreating again they will wipe out naturally as they aren’t immortal anymore. If they don’t advance their magic and technology their enemies will wipe them out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Well, as long you're willing to let weeds infestate your buildings than yes, I suppose?

    Point is, that's not "natureish" at all. It's stone buildings suffering the obvious effects of abandonment. If you actually want to build a civilization strongly tied to nature than you come up with buildings that effectively mesh up with it. The Azsuna buildings weren't built with such mindset in mind and not a single blade of grass would have grown on them as long people lived within them. That would be true even if modern Night Elves lived there. Pretty sure we'll never see Darnassus reduced in similar conditions until the day Night Elves will not live there anymore.
    Darnassus is in a similar or even “worse” state. Every single building of Darnassus has some sort of climbers at their walls, roofs, interiors and not just in the stonebuild houses like the temple, warrior terrace or entrance gate but also every single wooden house. The difference is that it’s just painted on and not 3D like in Azsuna.
    If we consider the fact that Darnassus was recently built and has a lot higher grade of “infestation” than Aszuna which was untouched for 10k years and Darnassus has a civilization that could’ve acted against it, it’s pretty obvious that it’s done on purpose. (Nordrassil was destroyed in 21, WoW began in 25, meaning less than 4 years, ignoring the fact it also takes some time to grow Teldrassil and build the houses.)
    And if you want to apply RL logic here: It’s worse to have this sort of decoration on a wooden house than on a stone house, because wooden walls will eventually rot, so if I wanted to have a lot of ivy covered walls I would build stone houses for the health of my civilization.

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