Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Barael]

As a side note, on what content are people actually using Skullflowers' regularly? I finally upgraded them (after quite a few others) but I still find I never use them (though I have some set bonus constraints, but this is potentially always a problem since they use up a set slot). Aside from optimal secondary stats, they still seem pretty lackluster to me. All they really do is that you can BB more instead of HS without paying the penalty of lost RP gain (since they basically give a full extra DS for every 5 BB you cast instead of HS). If I want to push DPS I just go Archimonde+Sephuz instead (since in M+ you can usually proc Sephuz on demand). All I can think of is non-challenging raid bosses (since on challenging ones you'd probably want to go with at least one legendary with a defensive bonus like belt or bracers) that aren't Sephuzable? Also, there's Lanathel with both +dmg and +heal, optimal secondaries and doesn't take up set item slot.

Edit: I did just realize that since you shouldn't really alter your rotation when using Skullflowers (except maybe during DRW), they can be thought of a simple, passive boost to DS. It's really hard to resist the "juuuuust one BB before every DS"-temptation when wearing them, though! :P

[Raiz]

Is +18 Mythic and above not challenging content, because I'm making these choices in these dungeons sometimes and it's not affecting my outcomes.

No one actually is saying to start Marrowrending at 8 stacks as beginner advice. What I'm saying is, Marrowrending ONCE to keep Foul Bulwark high, is not going to get you killed in ANY raid, Mythic, heroic, LFG.

I never recommended other people to over cap for juicier death strikes. Your problem is your reading comprehension. You're taking everything to heart and way too seriouisly and applying it as advice being given out because you're frustrated or something, I dunno, but please refrain from putting words in people's mouths please!

Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say. Even though you seems rather aggressive, but I guess people can't understand if they don't pay attention.

And also using Marrowrend at 8-9 stacks means fewer Heart Strikes, which means fewer Death Strikes, which are the primary source of your damage.

I don't understand how you're doing that. Are you seriously telling me you're never capped in ressources ? I refuse to believe it. I have either 5 stacks and am on the verge of getting 4 stacks, or I'm almost overcapping on ressources when I use all my runes for Heart Strikes. Don't get me started with the Crimson Scourge's procs, the 4 pieces, the bracers, and god forbid, DRW.
I can't help but think you're not playing your DK to its full potential, no matter how far you are in mythic progression.
Just wondering : Have you ever tried the compact runes addon ? Can you ever play your BDK without any of the bars getting full ?
That's exactly why I'm marrowrending at 7 stacks sometimes because otherwise I'll have at least one ressource capped (mostly blood boil, because I feel like it's the less important ressource after you're fully settled in front of the boss).

I can really appreciate the 2 piece for sure, but the 4 piece is rather maddening. I would prefer to have the rune regeneration *during* DRW so that I can spam as much as possible.

For real man ? As if we're not swimming in ressources right now T_____________T

[Tojara]

Shoulders are pretty much a staple on most ST encounters. Thankfully though, legendary usage can be pretty versatile if you have them all in ToS.

Goroth - Shoulders/Trinket (ST boss, trinket is simply a safety net, allowing easy solo soaks on infernals)
Demonic Inquisition - Shoulders/Trinket (Same deal as Goroth, mostly ST, trinket used for either DPS or emergency as that dude does hit hard)
Harjatan - Shoulders/Sephuz/Chest (Any of these are good on this boss)
Sisters - Shoulders/Trinket/Bracers (Nothing really dangerous here, trinket isn't as valuable in P2 as it's hard to eat it up in it's entirety)
Desolate Host - Chest/Sephuz (Shoulders are fine here too, very easy to get interrupts here so Sephuz is really valuable, and chest is self explanatory)
Mistress - Shoulders/Chest/Sephuz (I tinkered between all of them, I will say that Sephuz lines up perfectly with Hydras and also is nice for the speed boost before whales)

Haven't done Maiden yet, start her this week but I'll obviously be using the new class ring for this boss and either the trinket or the belt. Pretty much everybody solo soaks this boss, so the ring is pretty self-explanatory. I'd have to look at timings more, but you should be able to have VB up for every smash even if you get your infusion changed to where you soak two back to back. If not it would be as simple as swapping the belt on and asking for an external (which can be tough depending on what co-tank you have).

I'd put an * on the chest for multiple reasons as it largely depends on what your composition is and what you need. If adds are dying very quick on Harjatan the chest loses a lot of value. Same deal for Mistress, but it depends on where you want to get your cleave from. We went with a very minimal cleave approach and tanks just do natural cleave anyways, so the chest works well here. Ultimately it wouldn't matter too much if you used shoulders over chest here. You would do slightly more ST damage with shoulders, but your overall damage will be higher with the chest. Again, the option to run both Shoulders/Chest exist too, but Sephuz is incredibly strong when you can reliably proc it every 30 seconds.

Chest is absolutely beast in M+. My regular setup is boots/sephuz between packs, and chest/sephuz on trash. But I have five main equipment sets which are tailor made for certain affixes, mini-bosses and bosses in mind. Boots/Sephuz, Chest/Sephuz, Shoulders/Sephuz, Shoulders/Trinket, Chest/Shoulders are all ones I use. Of course I have a variation with the cloak in, and occasionally I might use the belt on some really high keys where I know trash will live long enough that multiple VB will be useful.

As to the set bonuses, I guess they are interesting? I'd like to see passive bonuses attached to them to make them feel less meh, but I think I'm "Okay" with a DRW themed tier if it's done properly, or at least balanced properly. That said it does have interesting synergy with spectral deflection.

I don't really notice myself overflowing with resources, and I'd like to think that I do pretty good DPS for blood (our logs are private this tier as an experiment so you would have to take my word for it). Generally I'm anywhere from 95-100 on most bosses.

To clarify the above. I did notice the occasional influx of resources in NH, but that was in an era where the 4 piece could potentially net you a lot of resources if you got lucky, in an era that I usually used the bracers on every encounter. Since dropping the set bonus I've maintained about the same amount of haste (~30%, give or take a couple) and haven't really noticed myself at risk of wasting resources. Granted, I just yesterday picked up the new 4 piece, so I'll have to see if I notice anything different, but I highly doubt it).

[Tehr]

I don't understand how you're doing that. Are you seriously telling me you're never capped in ressources ? I refuse to believe it. I have either 5 stacks and am on the verge of getting 4 stacks, or I'm almost overcapping on ressources when I use all my runes for Heart Strikes. Don't get me started with the Crimson Scourge's procs, the 4 pieces, the bracers, and god forbid, DRW.
I can't help but think you're not playing your DK to its full potential, no matter how far you are in mythic progression.
Just wondering : Have you ever tried the compact runes addon ? Can you ever play your BDK without any of the bars getting full ?
That's exactly why I'm marrowrending at 7 stacks sometimes because otherwise I'll have at least one ressource capped (mostly blood boil, because I feel like it's the less important ressource after you're fully settled in front of the boss).

Sometimes capping on resources is fine. Advising new players to generate bad habits is not fine. That's my only argument. I know I'm certainly capping resources depending on the mechanics of the fight - and mostly Blood Boil like you, since I don't have Shoulders - but if someone asks me how to optimally play BDK, which is what happened, I will tell them that using Marrowrend at 7 stacks means you are using ~10% too many Marrowrends, which is not ideal.

My list of characters is available in my signature if you want to look at my logs. In Nighthold I had orange parses on everything but Tichondrius on Heroic during 7.2, and 7 of the 9 bosses I killed on Mythic (I never did Star Augur on DK) were 92%+. I'm out of practice now because I played Druid for last few weeks of Nighthold (and just went on vacation for 2.5 weeks), but my lowest percentile parse in Heroic ToS is 80%, my average is 91%, and that's without Chest, Shoulders, Trinket, with only 926ilvl, and without playing to parse, so I think I'm performing pretty well. Mythic isn't as good, to be sure (average is only 71% with 1-2 Mythic kills per boss on my BDK), but I'm certainly not a complete noob. You've said before on this same topic that you don't think I'm playing my DK well (or to its full potential), and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't keep saying that same thing. Either post your own logs so we can compare, or just lay off it. We're talking about optimal and ideal performance, not measuring the amount of mistakes each other makes.

[Raiz]

Sometimes capping on resources is fine. Advising new players to generate bad habits is not fine. That's my only argument. I know I'm certainly capping resources depending on the mechanics of the fight - and mostly Blood Boil like you, since I don't have Shoulders - but if someone asks me how to optimally play BDK, which is what happened, I will tell them that using Marrowrend at 7 stacks means you are using ~10% too many Marrowrends, which is not ideal.

My list of characters is available in my signature if you want to look at my logs. In Nighthold I had orange parses on everything but Tichondrius on Heroic during 7.2, and 7 of the 9 bosses I killed on Mythic (I never did Star Augur on DK) were 92%+. I'm out of practice now because I played Druid for last few weeks of Nighthold (and just went on vacation for 2.5 weeks), but my lowest percentile parse in Heroic ToS is 80%, my average is 91%, and that's without Chest, Shoulders, Trinket, with only 926ilvl, and without playing to parse, so I think I'm performing pretty well. Mythic isn't as good, to be sure (average is only 71% with 1-2 Mythic kills per boss on my BDK), but I'm certainly not a complete noob. You've said before on this same topic that you don't think I'm playing my DK well (or to its full potential), and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't keep saying that same thing. Either post your own logs so we can compare, or just lay off it. We're talking about optimal and ideal performance, not measuring the amount of mistakes each other makes.

I give up. Clearly you don't understand. I don't care if you're parsing grey or orange. I'm pretty sure you're playing better than me. Afterall, like I've said it multiples times, I'm in a small guild. We're not doing mythic. Far from it actually. But it's not the point of this thread, at all.

There's no point arguing with you anymore. You clearly lack comprehension. That's like telling a toddler he shouldn't play football without his shoes. Yet we're seeing ppl all over the world playing football without shoes because it's fine. But for you, they shouldn't. they should play with their shoes on, with shin guards, on the sand, on the beach.

If you still don't see my point. Then I give up.

Peace.

[Tehr]

I don't care if you're parsing grey or orange. I'm pretty sure you're playing better than me.

Then why have you said that I'm not performing to my full potential?

You say I'm the one with a lack of comprehension, but you're almost intentionally misconstruing my point (or are refusing to agree because of stubbornness, I don't know which), while I understand your point and specifically disagree with it. To use your own analogy, I'm saying that you should try to avoid taking the ball out of bounds. Sure, there may be times when you should, as part of a certain strategy, but if someone is new to the game, you wouldn't tell them it's "fine" to take the ball out of bounds, you'd tell them that's a bad habit because their team loses possession of the ball.

I don't want to be an asshole, but this argument will continue happening every time poor advice (in this case, using Marrowrend at 7 stacks) is given to new players. I agree that it's not the end of the world to use Marrowrend at 7 stacks, but you're entirely wasting the effect of one of our one-point artifact traits by doing so, and to say that doing so is "fine" is patently false.

[Marrilaife]

Thankfully though, legendary usage can be pretty versatile if you have them all in ToS.

So btw can someone recommend me which of these legendaries to use:

archi trinket
bracers
crafted belt
lanathel ring

I see you recommend the trinket a lot of times, is it just because of sheer amount of strength it has? Because the absorb can be kinda substituted by other trinkets like gul'dan / desolate host trinkets. So is it just for the dps potential?

[Raiz]

To use your own analogy, I'm saying that you should try to avoid taking the ball out of bounds. Sure, there may be times when you should, as part of a certain strategy, but if someone is new to the game, you wouldn't tell them it's "fine" to take the ball out of bounds, you'd tell them that's a bad habit because their team loses possession of the ball.

Wow, that's pretty extreme if you truly believe your analogy is closer to what marrowrending at 7 stacks is. I guess we'll both agree to disagree here.

So btw can someone recommend me which of these legendaries to use:

archi trinket
bracers
crafted belt
lanathel ring

I see you recommend the trinket a lot of times, is it just because of sheer amount of strength it has? Because the absorb can be kinda substituted by other trinkets like gul'dan / desolate host trinkets. So is it just for the dps potential?

I'd take bracers + lanathel until 4 sets. After that, I can see myself with archi + ring. But I don't have either of those legendaries.
All I know is VB + Archi is a pretty strong combo. But I don't know if it's overkill ?
If you continue to play with bracers and 4 sets, you'll have a hard time to spend all of your ressources without being capped.
One thing for sure is, crafted belt is kinda sh.t. And it sucks even more in m+.

[figuratively]

I'd take bracers + lanathel until 4 sets. After that, I can see myself with archi + ring. But I don't have either of those legendaries.
All I know is VB + Archi is a pretty strong combo. But I don't know if it's overkill ?
If you continue to play with bracers and 4 sets, you'll have a hard time to spend all of your ressources without being capped.
One thing for sure is, crafted belt is kinda sh.t. And it sucks even more in m+.

It's a tremendously fun minigame, but it's become overkill for me. I use it when I expect large, predictable damage bursts in melee range. Cranking up a massive health pool with VB/Consumption/DS and smacking AHR feels good, man. Generally speaking, though, I use the Soul of the Deathlord and some other defensive trinket.

Considering the options, I'd likely go with bracers and trinket.

[Deleted]

If you continue to play with bracers and 4 sets, you'll have a hard time to spend all of your ressources without being capped.
One thing for sure is, crafted belt is kinda sh.t. And it sucks even more in m+.

Are you still using T19 2p? I mean i get that with t19 4p procing back to back it was sometimes hard to spend everything, but with t20?

I hit the dummy for about ~8minutes (yes a raid Szenario is different) but i have no Problems keeping Blooddrinker and Consumption on CD, BB Charges rolling and 3-4 Runes being empty, i only used DnD with a proc in this time and refreshed marrowrend with 2-3 seconds left, because i did not hit the tank dummy T_T And i still had little downtimes from time to time. Im at 32% haste w/o Boneshield

This was without bracers because i dont have them. How much RP is refundend with t20 4p? is it 15% from 35 RP or 15% from the base cost?


Regarding VB + Archi trinket:
This will probably result in more dps. But General speaking you dont want to stack defensive CDs and its better to stagger CDs. An exception is solo soaking the Hammers @ maiden.

[Tehr]

How much RP is refundend with t20 4p? is it 15% from 35 RP or 15% from the base cost?

It's refunded from the base cost iirc.

[Barael]

My problem with regards to the shoulders is that I only have one decent tank trinket apart from Archi's and my non-legendary rings aren't that hot either, so I lose both a set bonus and have to swap in a crappy-ish non-legendary ring/trinket to fit in the shoulders. I got decently lucky with Leviathan's Hunger but goddamn Goroth hasn't dropped his str+armorproc trinket ONCE, on ANY difficulty so far.

[Toore]

My problem with regards to the shoulders is that I only have one decent tank trinket apart from Archi's and my non-legendary rings aren't that hot either, so I lose both a set bonus and have to swap in a crappy-ish non-legendary ring/trinket to fit in the shoulders. I got decently lucky with Leviathan's Hunger but goddamn Goroth hasn't dropped his str+armorproc trinket ONCE, on ANY difficulty so far.

That trinket isnt really good for anything - defencivly it proccs from everything (even when off tanking), offencivly its lackluster (not bad in m+ but there are better ones for that).

If you want trinket for defence buy DMI, farm DHT for WHoD, for offence i dont really know moonglaive maybe?

[Raiz]

Are you still using T19 2p? I mean i get that with t19 4p procing back to back it was sometimes hard to spend everything, but with t20?

No

I hit the dummy for about ~8minutes (yes a raid Szenario is different) but i have no Problems keeping Blooddrinker and Consumption on CD, BB Charges rolling and 3-4 Runes being empty, i only used DnD with a proc in this time and refreshed marrowrend with 2-3 seconds left, because i did not hit the tank dummy T_T And i still had little downtimes from time to time. Im at 32% haste w/o Boneshield

This was without bracers because i dont have them. How much RP is refundend with t20 4p? is it 15% from 35 RP or 15% from the base cost?

Don't get me wrong, I can do that aswell with bracers + 4 set, but let's be honest here : my death strikes cost only 29 RP with gravewarden proc. So it's really hard to spend all my ressource. That was without DRW.
In theory, you can play perfectly. But that's another story in a practice situation x)

It's refunded from the base cost iirc.

Indeed. My death strikes (after refund) cost :
38 RP without gravewarden and ossuary.
33-34 RP with gravewarden (most often 33 RP).
34 RP with Ossuary.
And finally 29 RP with both.

Sadly I don't have 2 t19 pieces anymore. I think it'd have been overkill though.

[Deleted]

I have been having trouble evaluating the weight of t19 bonus, which i find amazing, my question is if it validates a ilevel drope to use them, mine are lower ilevel pieces, and if it does, by how much. 5?10?20? The way i look at it, by pushing the resource cost that much down it devalues haste making versa a lot more desirable! But this is theory.
Well, it's a lot better tier bonus then the upcoming one. I like the new tier looks though.

[leorana]

I have been having trouble evaluating the weight of t19 bonus, which i find amazing, my question is if it validates a ilevel drope to use them, mine are lower ilevel pieces, and if it does, by how much. 5?10?20? The way i look at it, by pushing the resource cost that much down it devalues haste making versa a lot more desirable! But this is theory.
Well, it's a lot better tier bonus then the upcoming one. I like the new tier looks though.

this is actually a good question i would like to know myslef (currently doing 2 t19+4t20 myself and bracers).


also, did Kj LFR today (didn't feel like PUGging norm KJ and possibly wiping my group if I mess up) and hoped to get some training/insights...

sadly, armagedon hail doesn't exsist in LFR so I have no idea if and when I can actually soak it, or how often (in case the PUG don't have enough players with immunities). felclaws didn't seem to bad with SoTD ring and bracers. had VB for every felcalw, blood tapped the last 6 seconds. not sure how good I'll handle it on norm. other tank kept messing taunts and I ended up with 9-10 stacks sometimes but wasn't in danger of dying.

also, how good is avoidance for this fight? let's say, for soaking big armagedons? I could stack 18% avoidance (but losing 10 ilvls across the board) but 18% less armagedon hail/gravity/oblisks dmg is a big deal if this actually count.

any insights on this fight is highly appreciated. at 924 ilvl (919 equipped and optimized, 909 if I go full avoidance) I still have concerns trying the next difficultyand just trying to get better.

also, co-tanked with a warrior. not sure how to read this but I took 4% more dmg than him while needing 1% less healing taken. that tank was actually 3rd in dmg taken...not sure how.

[Deleted]

this is actually a good question i would like to know myslef (currently doing 2 t19+4t20 myself and bracers).


also, did Kj LFR today (didn't feel like PUGging norm KJ and possibly wiping my group if I mess up) and hoped to get some training/insights...

sadly, armagedon hail doesn't exsist in LFR so I have no idea if and when I can actually soak it, or how often (in case the PUG don't have enough players with immunities). felclaws didn't seem to bad with SoTD ring and bracers. had VB for every felcalw, blood tapped the last 6 seconds. not sure how good I'll handle it on norm. other tank kept messing taunts and I ended up with 9-10 stacks sometimes but wasn't in danger of dying.

also, how good is avoidance for this fight? let's say, for soaking big armagedons? I could stack 18% avoidance (but losing 10 ilvls across the board) but 18% less armagedon hail/gravity/oblisks dmg is a big deal if this actually count.

any insights on this fight is highly appreciated. at 924 ilvl (919 equipped and optimized, 909 if I go full avoidance) I still have concerns trying the next difficultyand just trying to get better.

also, co-tanked with a warrior. not sure how to read this but I took 4% more dmg than him while needing 1% less healing taken. that tank was actually 3rd in dmg taken...not sure how.

Dont give up ilvl for avoidance. 10 ilvl worth of str/sta and secondaries is a lot. In General you want to equip highest ilvl possible. If you have higher pieces than the t192p i´d probably equip them if its 10 or more ilvl on both pieces. Often we want to use shoulders and/or chest, so wearing t19 2p + t20 4p wont be possible often.

Regarding Armageddon hail, i have only done normal once, after that only went heroic but i assume the pattern stays the same:

Tank A starts tanking the boss.

One Hail in P1 -> soaked from Tank B

Two Hails in first Intermission -> Tank A takes the first (Tank B most likely still has Felclaw debuff), second one can be soaked by one of the tanks, does not matter, no one will have a debuff

Two Hails in P2 -> by the time the first hail is landing Tank A is tanking the boss but Tank B has the Fel Claw Debuff. If you have Paladins in your Group you can soak the Hail with a BoP, i´d recommand this, so other ppl can Focus on the small armageddons.

For the 2nd Hail its the other way around. Tank B is tanking the boss and Tank A has Felclaw debuff.

If no BoP is available a Player with an immunity should soak it. Im not sure if tanks with a big CD (Guardian) can take it even with felclaws, i tried it once with only Rune tap and died horribly ^.^

In the first Intermission our Guardian always takes both big hails, and i get 1 or 2 of the small ones with pre AMS so you dont get the dot.

With your ilvl it shouldn´t be a Problem to do Heroic KJ with a decent group. But i have no exp how Pugs are doing with KJ hc right now.

[leorana]

Dont give up ilvl for avoidance. 10 ilvl worth of str/sta and secondaries is a lot. In General you want to equip highest ilvl possible. If you have higher pieces than the t192p i´d probably equip them if its 10 or more ilvl on both pieces. Often we want to use shoulders and/or chest, so wearing t19 2p + t20 4p wont be possible often.

Regarding Armageddon hail, i have only done normal once, after that only went heroic but i assume the pattern stays the same:

Tank A starts tanking the boss.

One Hail in P1 -> soaked from Tank B

Two Hails in first Intermission -> Tank A takes the first (Tank B most likely still has Felclaw debuff), second one can be soaked by one of the tanks, does not matter, no one will have a debuff

Two Hails in P2 -> by the time the first hail is landing Tank A is tanking the boss but Tank B has the Fel Claw Debuff. If you have Paladins in your Group you can soak the Hail with a BoP, i´d recommand this, so other ppl can Focus on the small armageddons.

For the 2nd Hail its the other way around. Tank B is tanking the boss and Tank A has Felclaw debuff.

If no BoP is available a Player with an immunity should soak it. Im not sure if tanks with a big CD (Guardian) can take it even with felclaws, i tried it once with only Rune tap and died horribly ^.^

In the first Intermission our Guardian always takes both big hails, and i get 1 or 2 of the small ones with pre AMS so you dont get the dot.

With your ilvl it shouldn´t be a Problem to do Heroic KJ with a decent group. But i have no exp how Pugs are doing with KJ hc right now.

that was VERY helpful, thank you.

[Marrilaife]

at 924 ilvl (919 equipped and optimized, 909 if I go full avoidance) I still have concerns trying the next difficultyand just trying to get better.

Depends who are you playing with, but tbh normal should not pose a problem at 919 ilvl and heroic should be fine as well, normal is quite doable with a ~900 equipped raid assuming everyone knows what they're doing (can't bet on that in pugs). You even have the deathlord ring which is free "oh shi-" button, I wish I had it. :P

- - - Updated - - -

Dont give up ilvl for avoidance. 10 ilvl worth of str/sta and secondaries is a lot. In General you want to equip highest ilvl possible

How important would you deem having haste on every non-tier piece? I have 2 930 items from weekly m+ chest that have pretty lame stats but my only other option is 915, so kinda wondering.

[Deleted]

Depends who are you playing with, but tbh normal should not pose a problem at 919 ilvl and heroic should be fine as well, normal is quite doable with a ~900 equipped raid assuming everyone knows what they're doing (can't bet on that in pugs).

- - - Updated - - -

How important would you deem having haste on every non-tier piece? I have 2 930 items from weekly m+ chest that have pretty lame stats but my only other option is 915, so kinda wondering.

Go for the 930 pieces. Stat priority only matters for pieces with the same ilvl, unless you are extremely low on haste. Only exception are rings, necks and trinkets.