Thoughts about rerolling to DH 7.2.5

[Measure]

It's fun seeing this thread because in the DH discord is actually the opposite. Every good DH is preparing a rogue for Mythic ToS progression because of how useless we're. (In fact I already got asked to prepare my rogue for Mythic Avatar)

- Shit target switching (I don't know why the guy above said it's good, Nemesis is a thing and it works bad in half the bosses (Harjatan, Host..).
- Above average ST damage with bottom-tier AoE and cleave. (Meanwhile sub rogues and warriors are better at everything than us.
- Rotation kills brain cells. A rotation based around RNG with 0 personal skill involved. There's a difference between simple and brain dead. Fury warrior rotation is simple, yet fun. DH rotation is smashing a button if you've fury, and that's it. The rest of the time you wait.

Personal opinion? Do not reroll to DH if you're interested in doing any kind of Mythic progression in ToS. We're currently bad and we will probably be worse in T21 seeing how Blizzard is ignoring us.

For more info, check this thread click

PS: You know things are bad when Umbral Moonglaives (Sisters of the Moon trinket), a trinket that does exactly the same as FotI, does like x3 the damage of FotI.

Listen to this man. We are absolutely trash tier in mythic Tomb. The developers show no plans to work on the class' core problems. So many other classes do everything we do but better. Stay away from DH unless you REALLLLYY love the class and aren't pushing any serious mythic progression.

[Saverem]

TLDR of it is that both DH specs are pretty good for everything outside of actual raiding.

So if you don't really raid, or if you're a super casual raider, then you'll be fine as a DH.

[Ramellan]

DH is still fun to me and the only fight I struggle with is mistress because of the green puddles. I've tanked/dpsd up to 5/9 mythic and the mobility is still amazing. You feel like a sloth when you play other classes. You will never top dps on aoe cleave fights, but you can still crush a lot of the single target fights.

[Shirofune]

DH is still fun to me and the only fight I struggle with is mistress because of the green puddles. I've tanked/dpsd up to 5/9 mythic and the mobility is still amazing. You feel like a sloth when you play other classes. You will never top dps on aoe cleave fights, but you can still crush a lot of the single target fights.

Mythic Goroth, 99th percentile



Yeah, we totally crush on ST fights.

Don't bother looking at the rest of the 4, they're all AoE/Cleave.

[Sonasol]

Those things are never very accurate.
A good MM hunter will never play BM if he knows he will perform better playing MM but he would do better then what it shows on the pic. The same goes to all the other classes. The only exeption to this are classes that only got one dps spec. Monks and DH. This means DH and monks could be even lower ranked if those good players went with those not so good dps specs.
My english is not the best but I think you got the ideia

[Ramellan]

Mythic Goroth, 99th percentile


Yeah, we totally crush on ST fights.

Don't bother looking at the rest of the 4, they're all AoE/Cleave.

99th percentile doesn't matter to the majority of people playing.On our first mythic sisters kill, our other DH was top dps and I was 5th. Don't let those statistics turn you away from a class. You can still do great damage in fights.

[Shirofune]

99th percentile doesn't matter to the majority of people playing.On our first mythic sisters kill, our other DH was top dps and I was 5th. Don't let those statistics turn you away from a class. You can still do great damage in fights.

What happens in a particular raid isn't relevant nor fact of anything, unless if by some kind of miracle you all parse the same.

The fact is that at the same percentile (i.e. skill, peak performance) DH is bad.

There you go, Sisters.

[Tyberos]

Well, (dumb) people wanted to see Momentum gameplay utterly destroyed instead of using it as Havoc's core identity and improving it. And stupidly, Blizz gave into it. Havoc DH has devolved continously from Beta to Live both gameplay- and performance-wise. Nemesis shouldn't even be a thing as well as abilities dealing non-Fel/Physical-damage. The list of problems/failures is too long actually...

#MMGA

So because some disagrees with what you find fun and entertaining, they are automatically labeled "dumb"? You are certainly well withing your rights and capability to make the statement, but questioning someones intellectual capacity purely out of disagreement of opinion is disturbingly closed minded.

You say that it has devolved since beta to live, yet provide no evidence or attempt to illustrate the thought. Remember, the majority of the population likely did not have access to alpha/beta and would be unaware of changes made along the way. Perhaps you could illuminate us.

Further in you say nemesis "shouldn't even be a thing...", yet fail to say why and provide argument. Same thing for "non-fel/physical-damage". Why? And more importantly, what would be your proposed fix?

Finally, regarding the list of problem and failure....I somehow doubt they are too long. However, I ask that you humor me and provide the list of those things which you disagree with regarding Havoc.

Changing the opinions of people is impossible unless you illustrate a well thought out argument and provide evidence. I look forward to hearing your opinion.

[Occar]

The momentum fetishests don't understand that raid encounters are designed in ways that implicitly bar momentum from being enjoyable at best, and flat out bar its use at worst. EN supported it, mostly, but since then, allowing for it hasn't been a consideration in boss design.

I mean, let's look at Maiden for example. You're explicitly barred from doing much movement most of the time, she has a relatively small hit box, and there is a big hole beside you.

[Tyberos]

The momentum fetishests don't understand that raid encounters are designed in ways that implicitly bar momentum from being enjoyable at best, and flat out bar its use at worst. EN supported it, mostly, but since then, allowing for it hasn't been a consideration in boss design.

I mean, let's look at Maiden for example. You're explicitly barred from doing much movement most of the time, she has a relatively small hit box, and there is a big hole beside you.

Generally, I agree with your statement. It would appear that the majority of boss design thus far has been of detriment to a highly mobile spec/build precisely for those reasons. Other mechanics, such as those on Desolate Host where proximity of the separate groups causes damage to occur in conjunction with a pitfall on the exterior of the platform, make utilizing this same movement mechanic at best a difficult feat.

[anticsd]

I recently rerolled from DH to rogue.

My opinion, DH makes a great alt but for raiding the RNG (waiting for procs) and spamming chaos strike most of the time when everything else is on CD is boring. In reality youre pretty much spamming chaos strike and blade dance. I didn't find it fun. Also if you dont have the ring youre going to have a lot of down time.

The constant changes on havoc also made me hang up my wings. I won't be suprised if they shuffled the stat priority again once Argus patch hits.

[LightClaw]

Without much context as to what you're looking to do I'll give my thoughts on the 2 major play styles briefly: more than happy to answer questions based on a little more context of what you're looking to do.

While I feel it is safe to assume you're not a super serious mythic raider (as in you NEED to perform better ASAP or your WoW experience will just be RUINED) based on you're asking MMO at this time of the raids release, I'll say it anyway: if you're progressing mythic as a tank: DO NOT SWAP TO DH. If you're a DPS: pleeeease don't swap to DH, we're pretty useless compared to useful FoTM reroll classses.

On the flip side of the coin, if you're either a very casual mythic raider or a HC raider DH is a super fun class with a lot of interesting usefulness.
Tank: I technically have been main VDH while offspeccing Havoc so I might have a little more opinion here: Outside of raids, we're a goddamn one man army. We just have so much "stuff" (aoe silence (2 if horde), targeted short CD ranged silence, aoe fear, aoe grip if talented, self heals, pretty decent physical and magic mitigation, good damage / fuckin retarded good AOE damage, the biggest single tank CD in the game ((meta,)) an extra life if talented in last resort,) we're a sort of jack-of-all-trades type tank that thrives in pugs but the more organized and class-specific comps you get the less useful you become solely based on the fact every other tank can do at least something better lol. If high level raids well... no reason to reroll from a top 3 tank ATM for a bottom tier tank lol. End all, I totally love my VDH in terms of usefulness, I feel I can carry my team through most types of content since I have the tools to do so until I start taking too much damage which is definitely what DH are not top tier at doing: mitigating damage.

DPS: Going along the assumption you're not a super serious mythic raider again, I'd say this (if you are, yet again no real reason to reroll to DH right now compared to other FoTM classes): the cookie cutter build that has the highest ST damage for havoc right now is imo frustrating due to the RNG of the spec (it is a spec that has the potential to have no meaningful buttons to push upwards of 4-6 sec sometimes, which literally feels like an eternity in boss fights lol.) It also has a (in my opinion) very fun AOE spec that makes you into a life-leeching demon that can't be killed except for one shots lol. But despite what people may say on here, the demonic spec can be very comparable even in ST fights to the cookie cutter build depending on what gear you have and skill to play the style which opens up the "as long as I don't get one shot I don't need a healer" spec that is demonic which can be super useful. If you're looking to push M+, havoc is far from the worst class to reroll to based on our demonic spec.

[Realmerc]

The momentum fetishests don't understand that raid encounters are designed in ways that implicitly bar momentum from being enjoyable at best, and flat out bar its use at worst. EN supported it, mostly, but since then, allowing for it hasn't been a consideration in boss design.

If blizzard buffs momentum to 25% and makes blur refreshes fel rush, i will play momentum on M star augur, difficult but not impossible. And there's a thing called fel rush cancel as well , just so you know.

imo, Momentum was the core play style and identity of DH, as some folks mentioned,but now we're just the worse version of rogues all around. i guess even the devs have been struggling to make this new heroic class feels right because in an interview they stated that they don't think DH should be a aoe/cleave class and yet EVERY SINGLE ABILITY is AOE except chaos strike,oh wait, you can make it aoe as well by using chaos cleave. how ironic.

[Anjerith]

Play what you want to play, because you will never be greater than 97% of the playerbase. If you happen to Be that 3% then recognize you will never exceed 1/3 of that. Play the game because it is fun - not to be competitive. If you like DH? Play it. If not? You are either a bad player or enjoy another role better.

[Goon84]

If blizzard buffs momentum to 25% and makes blur refreshes fel rush, i will play momentum on M star augur, difficult but not impossible. And there's a thing called fel rush cancel as well , just so you know.

imo, Momentum was the core play style and identity of DH, as some folks mentioned,but now we're just the worse version of rogues all around i guess even the devs have been struggling to make this new heroic class feels right because in an interview they stated that they don't think DH should be a aoe/cleave class and yet EVERY SINGLE ABILITY is AOE except chaos strike,or wait, you can make it aoe as well by using chaos cleave. how ironic.

I thought that was considered an exploit.

[kaelleria]

I'd probably quit before rerolling. Legendaries still suck if you're starting from 0.

[Shirofune]

If blizzard buffs momentum to 25% and makes blur refreshes fel rush, i will play momentum on M star augur, difficult but not impossible. And there's a thing called fel rush cancel as well , just so you know.

imo, Momentum was the core play style and identity of DH, as some folks mentioned,but now we're just the worse version of rogues all around. i guess even the devs have been struggling to make this new heroic class feels right because in an interview they stated that they don't think DH should be a aoe/cleave class and yet EVERY SINGLE ABILITY is AOE except chaos strike,oh wait, you can make it aoe as well by using chaos cleave. how ironic.

If you've to even think about canceling Fel Rush, then that skill is a fail design wise. Not fun to use. That's the whole issue with Momentum.

And that's one of the reasons Momentum doesn't work in raids.

[BiggestNoob]

If you're making a new character right now, it should be a warrior or rogue. Havoc is at the bottom on all but like 1 fight, and Blizzard isn't about to buff it, probably not even in 7.3 or in the raid prepatch. It probably won't get buffed again in this expansion.

[Tyberos]

If you've to even think about canceling Fel Rush, then that skill is a fail design wise. Not fun to use. That's the whole issue with Momentum.

And that's one of the reasons Momentum doesn't work in raids.

The general consensus around momentum appears to be that animation canceling is purely the result of momentum forcing you off-target for any length of time, resulting in potential damage loss and further consideration of boss mechanics. Thus, momentum is an ASPECT of the problem and not the entire issue. In fact one could argue that momentum is a non-issue altogether and that it is encounter design within the raid environment that is the primary source of problems. Example; in the majority of the rest of the game momentum works reasonably well but when subjected to the strictures of a raid (and sometimes dungeons, depending) it fails to perform adequately in the eyes of a few. Coincidentally, killing spree for rogues has had the same issue multiple times, though is different in its intent. By adapting encounter design to consider certain problem abilities, it immediately becomes a non-issue.

Now, I am not so naive as to believe that any of what I have said would be the best way to address the concerns with momentum as a talent, and certainly it should be looked at by the developer for ways to improve its usefulness to the Demon Hunter community. Rather, I want to urge the community to reach out to blizzard with well thought-out and written arguments and it's supporting evidence. If you desire change then it is up to all of you to lobby for that interest.

Personally, momentum was never something that I particularly enjoyed. The limitations it places upon the player seemed far in excess of its benefits, primarily in that it encourages you to burn up a charge of your movement enhancing ability, potentially forces your out of range of the boss for a period of time (which is dependent upon the hit box of the boss/mob in question), and subjects you to mechanics that are otherwise unresolvable. Additionally, management of short duration buffs has never been of interest to me personally which implants further bias into my perspective, though I am cognizant that some find the style of game play compelling. Placing the talent among on different row to make it a more attractive choice to the player does nothing to alleviate these concerns.

The question then becomes; Are there potential fixes that address these concerns? If so, detail those proposals. Else, alternative solutions may need to be investigated

[Musta]

I dont use the cookie cutter build because i found it quite not fun. SO, i sacrificed some of my DPS, but my gameplay is much more fun.