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  1. #1221
    FTR, I have read this ''memo''. Again, despite what the usual sites are saying, the guy is not ''proving'' anything. He is just spouting platitudes (example : LEFFTIES WANT TO PROTECT WEAK) without quotes or citations.

    Viewpoint diversity is arguably the most important type of diversity and political orientation is one of the most fundamental and significant ways in which people view things differently.

    I'm not an English speaker, but WTF it's supposed to means. ''Viewpoint diversity is important'' (okay...) because ''people view things differently'' ?
    Last edited by sarahtasher; 2017-08-10 at 02:09 AM.

  2. #1222
    Well, there's definitely some problems here. First, the memo is clearly NOT an attack on anyone. If anything, it's evidence the employee in question feels strongly about Google's success as a company. Even if the points made in the memo are incorrect they are clearly written and generally presented so that it can in no way be viewed as an attack towards any individual or group.

    Second, Google has reinforced a certain fear in their employees and severely sharpened the tone of its cultural efforts. Since the employee stated their motivation was driven from experiences while working at Google, it's clear the efforts Google has put in place to generate a certain corporate culture are not accomplishing their goals. It's also safe to assume there are more employees who feel this way but were unwilling to voice their opinion out of fear of termination. These are serious problems which Google should be grateful have come to light.

    Third, by smothering this individual Google has directly contradicted itself and placed its political beliefs above the character qualities it claims to be the backbone of its success. Everyone who works for Google had to complete a notoriously rigorous interview process. It is globally recognized for weeding out people who are unable to think for themselves while attracting motivated individuals who are strongly committed to positive change on a world wide scale. Google is now facing the reality of a narrower base of future employment candidates and a strengthening of Google's competitors as highly skilled workers decide look elsewhere.

    Finally, the correct way to handle any memo like this is interview the individual to get a clear understanding of their motivation and what they hoped to accomplish by sharing their views. Regardless of how divergent the ideas expressed may be from Google's corporate culture, the individual in question has given thought to their opinions and provided information they believe to be relevant and reliable. There are numerous reasons why someone would submit a document on this topic and Google can definitely afford to spend an hour with them to better understand how they got to that spot.

    The bottom line here is, right or not, Google handled this employee badly and I wouldn't be surprised if the people who made these decisions end up looking for work in the next 6 to 12 months.
    Last edited by WinningOne; 2017-08-10 at 02:43 AM.

  3. #1223
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    I like how TheGuardian labelled Jordan Peterson as right wing in its latest piece about this, where it mentioned that the first two interviews Damore gave were to two right wing ytubers.

    Christ, enough with this right/left nonsense. People let it go to their heads and shut any debate down

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    I wouldn't believe it because I don't see aggressiveness as necessarily being a bad trait for a leader (depending on who you are leading), or why they would not apply for the role.

    If you were say, link a study that says men have less empathy than women, and that could be one of the reasons why they are so underrepresented in social services positions, I could believe that.
    Empathy and diplomacy are great traits for leadership. Basically I don't see any competitive advantage between the genders in regards to leadership.

    The diversity critic says as much, as well.

    Women on average are more cooperative

    Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive.
    I really don't agree that women are necessarily more cooperative. But there are studies indicating that employees have a preference for leaders who stress diplomacy and cooperation over aggression and competitiveness (not gender-specific), I'm not able to dig it up at current but I can later.

  5. #1225
    Funny how often the in the name of diversity and inclusion thing just ends up being uniformity and exclusion. The loss of freedoms continue...

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Nfinitii View Post
    Funny how often the in the name of diversity and inclusion thing just ends up being uniformity and exclusion. The loss of freedoms continue...
    Nah it's always been like this in business. The culture might have varied but the groupthink has always been the same.

    Also there are still likely far more companies whose corporate culture is more in line with conservative values.

  7. #1227
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    The memo reads like a social science paper at first, then it progressively starts to read as "feminism is bullshit" as you get further into it.

    What's telling to me about the memo, is how the author talks about "psychological safety over diversity". Basically, to me, what he's trying to say is, "diversity works excellent on paper and maybe even in the short term, but as soon as these diverse people actually occupy the same space with each other, they start to drive each other mad, insane, into animosity, into an unspoken division" and companies don't give a shit about this, the psychological welfare of their employees.

    He probably wanted to say that the women he works with are driving him absolutely insane, but the only way you can voice it is to create a thesis about it, but it still gets you fired.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Empathy and diplomacy are great traits for leadership. Basically I don't see any competitive advantage between the genders in regards to leadership.

    The diversity critic says as much, as well.


    I really don't agree that women are necessarily more cooperative. But there are studies indicating that employees have a preference for leaders who stress diplomacy and cooperation over aggression and competitiveness (not gender-specific), I'm not able to dig it up at current but I can later.
    Once again, you're missing the point. You keep arguing about why these qualities should make women good leaders. That isn't what the memo, or what I have been arguing, is about. It's about GETTING there. Most places require you to "pay your dues" and move up through the ranks. currently the way that is structured it is easier to do that via traits that aren't necessarily good for the role itself. That is one of the solutions poised in the memo. Instead of setting a hard hire % quota, change the way you evaluate and promote people. If a workplace is high competition, someone who is more cooperative will likely get passed by someone who is more aggressive. That doesn't speak at all to how good either person is at their job.

    It could just be that Google (any many, many other companies) needs to reevaluate the metrics with which it is measuring performance, as well as evaluating jobs themselves to see if they can make changes that would benefit all workers.

  9. #1229
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    Not entering in the merit of the subject, but this case revealed how google (that company that holds info of everybody) is not friendly of diversity of thought.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Nah it's always been like this in business. The culture might have varied but the groupthink has always been the same.

    Also there are still likely far more companies whose corporate culture is more in line with conservative values.
    I was talking more in general. But a business is a business, I don't necessarily agree w/ the firing but there is a time and a place for everything and this may not have been the best avenue for him to express his opinion. Instead google probably should have given him the proper time and place to express his opinion to promote diversity and inclusion instead of firing. Which only creates an echo chamber and silences those w/ different opinion for fear of losing their job. But google is free to do as they wish, this is a free country. But in general the diversity and inclusion often does the opposite, silencing those who may be viewed as offensive. Which being offended is purely subjective.

  11. #1231
    What's the story here? Google gets to set the tone and appropriate work environment they feel is best. Every company does.

    "Free speech" does not mean anything unless it is a government infringing upon you the individual. Otherwise, you never have a right to free speech on someone's dime or boat.

  12. #1232
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What's the story here? Google gets to set the tone and appropriate work environment they feel is best. Every company does.

    "Free speech" does not mean anything unless it is a government infringing upon you the individual. Otherwise, you never have a right to free speech on someone's dime or boat.
    Some guy sends some neutral, yet completely random memo out to the company, they don't like it, he gets fired.
    The memo is using "sources" to try and explain why diversity isn't super duper great and can be a threat to psychological safety. He's basically saying their version of "diversity" is a shoehorn and he's pushing his own form of it.

  13. #1233
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    I am pretty sure the position of some people here would be different if a company fired someone for thinking there are prejudice against women on workplace
    Last edited by igualitarist; 2017-08-10 at 03:25 AM.

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What's the story here? Google gets to set the tone and appropriate work environment they feel is best. Every company does.

    "Free speech" does not mean anything unless it is a government infringing upon you the individual. Otherwise, you never have a right to free speech on someone's dime or boat.
    Again, no one is saying Google doesn't have the ability to fire him. They are all talking about how dumb of a move it was, and how awful diversity practices are in general.

  15. #1235
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What's the story here? Google gets to set the tone and appropriate work environment they feel is best. Every company does.

    "Free speech" does not mean anything unless it is a government infringing upon you the individual. Otherwise, you never have a right to free speech on someone's dime or boat.
    Not quite. The author of that memo had recently pushed an official complaint against discrimination.

    With this text and google explicitely - and publicly - stating that the reason of his removal was because he didn't buy into the groupthink within google, they basically gave the guy a legal case.

    It doesn't mean he'll win the suit, but it's something that will cost google dearly.

    Hell, some people are considering looking for other options. Microsoft was quite happy, although they forgot to foresee the fact that everyone forgot about bing anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by igualitarist View Post
    I am pretty sure the position of some people here would be different if the company fired someone for thinking there are prejudice against women on workplace
    Oh yes. That's a fact. And I'd disagree with them, just like I do disagree with google right now.
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, they're completely identical BUT you still want a mixture of both because of their differences. And something something viewpoints #diversity.
    Yes! We are all individuals!



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Some guy sends some neutral, yet completely random memo out to the company, they don't like it, he gets fired.
    The memo is using "sources" to try and explain why diversity isn't super duper great and can be a threat to psychological safety. He's basically saying their version of "diversity" is a shoehorn and he's pushing his own form of it.
    Guessing you didn't read the memo. Not what he was saying at all, his whole reason for writing it was to increase diversity.

  17. #1237
    Well, that was a waste of few minutes.
    Cleek's Law

    "Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily."

  18. #1238
    how big will this thread get. Seems like such a non issue to me. PC company gets caught being PC, wheres the story...

  19. #1239
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage BloodElf4Life View Post
    Not quite. The author of that memo had recently pushed an official complaint against discrimination.
    I'm amazed that we're 60+ pages in and the thesis of the man's memo still needs to be explained.

    As a side note; I think it's great that Jordan Peterson went out of his way to provide links to research on his interview video that support the claims in the memo. Of course, the loudmouths who should actually read the research won't bother, but a less arrogant, curious person might do some critical thinking and make up their own mind.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  20. #1240
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    how big will this thread get. Seems like such a non issue to me. PC company gets caught being PC, wheres the story...
    It's Google. Not NYT. Not Fox News. Not Chick-Fil-A.

    Google.
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

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