Is it just me or KJ HC is legitimately a pug killer?

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

I've created multiple multi-kill & full curved groups, yet all still fail.

Amazing numbers and what-not, but it seems we always fuck up the armageddon.

With Gul'dan, it got better after week 2-3, yet, KJ is still the worst.

Is it just me, or KJ is just way, way too punishing for pugs?

[Gib Lover]

Armageddon on HC is just extremely punishing to the entire raid if even a single person fucks up. It's not a "you made a mistake, you die" mechanic it's a "you made a mistake and it's a wipe" mechanic but on at least 3 people's shoulder each time it happens.

It's not a difficult mechanic, it's just got 0 margin for error.

[Tiberveil]

I think it is fine the way it is. KJ isn't a dps race, it is a mechanic check. I don't want to assume but I've found in a fair amount of PuGs, people tend to focus on how much dps they are doing and not what the fight mechanics require. It is honestly as simple as telling people to focus on mechanics, dps downtime of 8-15 seconds is not going to cause the raid to wipe to enrage.

[Trend]

I just wouldn't think there would be that many of the better players looking to PUG HC at this point. I would think you would end up with a higher percentage of people who got (paid for or not) carries. Just because someone has the achieve doesn't mean they ever soaked a single armageddon.

It comes down to the nature of the mechanic. If you have more than a few people who aren't very actively looking to soak every time they are eligible, you're screwed. Gul'dan didn't have anything that required such a large percentage of the raid to do mechanics right.

[Neverlife]

I think Heroic KJ should be this difficult, it should be a pug killer.

[Beckers]

You have short term memory... Guldan was just that before the 4-5 nerfs..

[Kelathos]

With Gul'Dan there was nothing really random.

For KJ and his Armageddon you'll have a random need to soak in various quadrants of the room, and some people may have already soaked a stack, or have their CD spent. So what looks like 5 people covering that corner is actually zero. And there is precious little time for others to understand the need and race across the room to solve it. It requires a high level of practice and organization unless someone develops an easy to learn technique for handling it.

[s_bushido]

Armageddon on HC is just extremely punishing to the entire raid if even a single person fucks up. It's not a "you made a mistake, you die" mechanic it's a "you made a mistake and it's a wipe" mechanic but on at least 3 people's shoulder each time it happens.

It's not a difficult mechanic, it's just got 0 margin for error.

What he said. Except to add: it's not just 3+ people's shoulders each time, it's 3+ different people's shoulders each time because the last group still has the debuff and will probably die if they get another stack (or cause the healers to run out of mana keeping them alive...so everyone dies anyway). So the chances of someone screwing up and wiping the raid are that much higher than pretty much any other boss outside of Maiden.

[Darth Belias]

Well, I mean...if HC KJ is a pug killer I guess that's working as intended then? Don't people usually complain if a heroic/mythic boss is easily pugable?

[Lochton]

KJ is fine on HC. You can still do the armageddon, you can even cheese it.

[Khallid]

I don't PUG but I imagine it will be easy to wipe if everyone is avoiding getting 2 stacks. It's fairly difficult to not have someone get 2 stacks at some point, because it's easy for too many people to run to one side of the room, so the people left on the other side have to soak that side, no matter if they already have the debuff. There are certain points in the fight where Armaggedon happens more often, which are during the first transition and phase 2 after the second group of adds. What my guild does is switch a dps to healer so we can manage 2 stacks. The only moment when you can't survive with 2 stacks is during the second transition, since you can't get healed in the dark.

To a certain degree it also depends on dps. If you don't have a very high dps you will get an overlap in phase 2 where the singularity explodes just as the armaggedon swirls appear. It's the worst overlap by far because it will throw everyone out of position at the worst possible moment, and some soaking spots become impossible to reach in time for some classes (like a soak on top of the same corner where the singularity exploded).

[Deleted]

KJ is very strong, he got much fel power from Sargeras. Yet he is not as strong as Archimonde in raw power - thats what the books say.

[Mister Cheese]

I don't think you remember gul'dan before he got nerfed.

[Nurasu]

Been pugging it for several weeks with 2 to 3 pulls each time. It's getting easier every week with higher DPS, cause you push him after only a few Armageddons. Even week 1 though, it was my opinion he's easier than several other bosses for a purely pug group. The only mechanic that's overly punishing is the Armageddon.

[vipers]

curved only show that they was there to maybe die when rest of the group killed boss but it does not prove that they know the fight

[tss]

Amazing numbers and what-not, but it seems we always fuck up the armageddon.

If you don't do mechanics, you wipe.

The idiot filter is working.

- - - Updated - - -

curved only show that they was there to maybe die when rest of the group killed boss but it does not prove that they know the fight

That's why you check the date.

- - - Updated - - -

Been pugging it for several weeks with 2 to 3 pulls each time. It's getting easier every week with higher DPS, cause you push him after only a few Armageddons. Even week 1 though, it was my opinion he's easier than several other bosses for a purely pug group. The only mechanic that's overly punishing is the Armageddon.

If you don't get only 1 armageddon P1 your raid DPS sucks.

- - - Updated - - -

With Gul'Dan there was nothing really random.

For KJ and his Armageddon you'll have a random need to soak in various quadrants of the room, and some people may have already soaked a stack, or have their CD spent. So what looks like 5 people covering that corner is actually zero. And there is precious little time for others to understand the need and race across the room to solve it. It requires a high level of practice and organization unless someone develops an easy to learn technique for handling it.

Watch your timers and be in the center with mobility ready if you don't have debuff?

[Trend]

That's why you check the date.

How does the date tell you whether or not someone has ever soaked a single armageddon? That's a rhetorical question, because obviously the date doesn't do anything to figure out if someone has actually performed the mechanics or not. It may give a slightly greater or lesser statistical likelihood, but nothing more valuable than that.

[Deleted]

It is when the pug is bad?

[GreenJesus]

KJ Normal pugs are cancer enough. Don't even want to bother pugging heroic.. Just pugging mistress on heroic is hair ripping.

[Jastall]

The endboss on Heroic should be fairly pug-proof IMO, at least until a few months in. He's about as hard as the first 3 Mythic bosses.

It is true that KJ is probably harder than most endbosses due to the fact that gear cannot make you ignore the soaks. But if people ignore mechanics, well, they should wipe.

I know I'm not going to even bother pugging him.