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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    There is no country in the world where noone feels oppressed, so it's meaningless distinction.

    You yourself confirmed that you're fine with oppression of those acting against others. How you cannot see the same thing with "people chosen to live under authoritarian regime willingly given alternatives" -> "opposition encroaches on that particular desire by trying to destroy their happy life"?

    Should they or should they not suppress them? This opposition is threatening their life after all, they aren't making choice on how only opposition themselves should live...
    It's not meaningless at all. You are actively supporting that oppression, all to make people feel happy.

    Heck, you even sided with slavery, so long as the majority wanted it. Good times.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    I have to disagree with you on this the US being in a constant state of war idea. We had given up on the "civilized world," after WW1, and we were pretty content to just stick to own hemisphere. It's really complicated, but most of the wars you are likely going to complain about were proxy wars between Capitalism and Communism with Russia being heavily involved as well.

    1991-1994 There really was a sense of cooperation between the US and Russia. There was even a moment were Russia opened up it's archives to western intellectuals. I remember watching on C-Span in the 90s, an American author who wrote a book on the Berlin wall. The Russians actually let her copy the communiques between Kruschev and Ulbicht. The GDR wanted the Berlin wall to prevent people from leaving their area, and Kruschev actually told them to fix the economy instead of building the wall, as the wall would create political problems.

    From 91-94 there was also a lot of military tech cooperation. The US actually bought and jointly developed tech from Yakovlev that was used to develop the F35. The US also opened it's doors to Russian's and gave them unprecedented access to our aircraft manufacturing plants. It wasn't in the news, but I have family members that work for one of the major jet engine producers here, and they were shocked at the amount of access the Russians were given.

    I still hold onto that romantic notion if people like Americans and Russians can get along, there is nothing that can stop mankind's progress. Seeing all that disrupted by old SJW's to distract from their failed policies...infuriates me.



    I don't even have to search for a link for a government news outlet...this is US policy. It is called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. Do you need me to send you a link to prove the internet exists too?

    Why are you so hung up on trust? You are lucky if you can even trust your wife, let alone a foreign Nation.
    I remember this all too well. The Russians started to distance themselves from the U.S. after the invasion of Iraq and there have been other tipping points (Libya and Syria) that have tipped things the other way.

    At this point Russia has become an independent nation and many in the west are upset by this development...the same people upset by this probably were gung ho with the Iraq War....

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's not meaningless at all. You are actively supporting that oppression, all to make people feel happy.
    So do you, to make people "free" and stamp down assumed bigots.

    Heck, you even sided with slavery, so long as the majority wanted it. Good times.
    Suppose i would support some movement that wanted to turn US political system into Russian one.

    Would you fight against it in principle? Or would you support it as valid expression of personal freedom?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    Out of all the foes the US, and other liberal Democracies face...I cannot understand your hatred for Russia. Why are we picking on our only RATIONAL foe with such ferocity? Sick and tired of this Russia bashing. And this is coming from a guy who watches Red Dawn whenever he has trouble sleeping.

    I actually fear that you have lost your mind, along with the rest of the anti-Trump folks. For goodness sake, look at your avatar. Trump = ISIS, so...it is kind of hard to take you seriously anymore. It is a shame to see someone so magnificently intelligent, as you are, discard reason for emotion. Such is politics, I guess.
    Three times in the last century America has been attacked.

    We were attacked on December 7th 1941 by the Empire of Japan. The used conventional air and naval power. It changed the course of our history.
    We were attacked on September 11th 2001 by Al Qaeda. They used an asymmetric terrorist approach. It changed the course of our history.
    We were attacked over the Summer and Fall of 2016 by the Russian Federation. They used Cyberwarfare, Espionage and information warfare. It changed the course of our history.

    No one has died (yet) so far as we know, due to Russia's actions. But it is no less an attack on our family, our way of life, our liberty than 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. In fact, for many years Security Experts, Computer Scientists and IT professionals were warning about the coming "Cyber Pearl Harbor". We expected an attack on a nuclear station, or a power grid, or Wall Street or NORAD by hackers... probably North Korean, Iranian or criminal in nature.

    It happened. In a form nobody expected, that of the 2016 election, by the hand of Russia.

    If we don't respond and deter in a way that draws a clear line in the sand, every election before us will be thrown into question by cyber attacks and information warfare by foreign powers. The methods of doing so by them will only get easier as time goes on.

    Russia attacked us. They need to pay a severe price for their attacks. We must make a supreme example of them.

    You think I want us to do this? This shit with Russia leaves us in so much worse shape for the Challenge from China that we will see near 2030. But America must respond to a tack levied against it, or it will happen again and more than Russia will do it.

    You think it's politics? No. It's security. I'd say the same if Russia tried to help Hillary Clinton. I'm a nationalist. I've described myself as that for over a decade. I'm not the stupid Trump kind of Nationalists that thing knuckledraggers like Steve Bannon has a point. I'm a nationalist of the "talk softly and carry a big stick kind" of American philosophy. We should recognize our unique place in the world and take definitive steps to advance our interests, but we should be careful, prudent and respectful of our allies.

    Our enemies who act against us though? Big stick. And Russia has earned the big stick.

    So I'll say it again. Everything short of war. We must seize their American assets. We must wreck their economy in every way possible. We must bring hardship to their people through every angle. We must put weapons in Europe to directly undermine their security. We must not just contain... we must strangle them. They are our enemy. They attacked our families. What do we do to people who attack our families?

    We don't give them another goddamn chance to.

    So no. No peace with Russia. Not now. Not ever. And it's not "Red Dawn" as you characterize it. It is taking Vladmir Putin's zero-sum world view, and turning it right back on his KGB ass. The world's 14th largest economy, more regional spoiler than even great power... an effective gas station with nuclear weapons... assaulted the world's most powerful country last year.

    It's time to teach Vladmir Putin, and the Russian people, why that's so horrifically unwise. If Vladmir Putin wants to play Zero-sum games, he should get to play it with a power that utter eclipses his own. Frankly, the hard part should be to know when to stop.

    That is American nationalism. That is security. American should be anybody's friend. But if you hurt us, we should and will break every bone in your body, and video tape it so the next guy will think twice. Deterrence only works if the other side thinks your serious. So let's show them how serious, by hurting Russia in every way possible short of bombing them.

    So here's looking forward to, in years ahead, Congress and the American people breaking a hell of a lot of Russian bones, even if Trump won't.

  5. #105
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    There is no country in the world where noone feels oppressed, so it's meaningless distinction.
    This is a nonsensical argument. You're essentially saying that because people feel oppressed in every country, it doesn't matter that people in Russia or any other particular country feel oppressed. Why bother when you'll never get rid of oppression? Well, that's an incredibly silly way to justify oppression, and also an easy way to avoid taking responsibility for the actions of your country's government.

    No country will ever be perfect, but that's not an excuse to just accept the status quo. The strides that we've (all human beings, regardless of country) made for prosperity and human rights have not come from just accepting oppression. It comes from individuals doing their part to make the world slightly less shitty than it was yesterday.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post

    I don't even have to search for a link for a government news outlet...this is US policy. It is called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. Do you need me to send you a link to prove the internet exists too?

    Why are you so hung up on trust? You are lucky if you can even trust your wife, let alone a foreign Nation.
    I don't want to turn this into a nuclear discussion, but MAD isn't US policy. It's an emergent property between two evenly matched nuclear power. The US government, like the Soviet/Russian government(s), worked very hard to beat MAD. Both sides had every intention of winning a nuclear exchange, mostly by shooting the other side's launchers / launch sites and command and control before that side could attack. But that's a very hard proposition, so MAD emerged out of both sides trying to do roughly the same thing.

    But here's the problem with MAD. It takes two to tango. And right now only the US is dancing.

    The US has a modern nuclear arsenal of 1550 strategic warheads on around 700 launchers. We offer Russia bout 600 aimpoints to hit. The US aims to make Russia's problem as hard as possible by putting as many aimpoints / launchers up as possible.

    Russia has an aging and decaying arsenal of about 1550 warheads on about 400 launchers. Russia offers about 300 aimpoints. Launchers (ICBMs mostly), essentially space vehicles (except for bombers) mind you, are expensive, and Russia is poorer, so they own fewer.

    Russia can on average fire 2 warheads at each US aim point. Considering that in the history of warfare, there has never been a weapon that hasn't had a "dud" in it, some of those will not detonate. Probably around 10%.

    The US can fire on average 3-5 warheads per Russian aimpoint, and indeed counts on this as hardened bunkers will need successive nuclear detonations in order to "dig".

    On top of this the US's early warning system is modern and fully functional, while Russia's is badly decayed. Ground based radar has major gaps Russia has no more early warning satellites.


    This is the point we get to what I said about MAD: it takes two to tango. The US is dancing, and Russia is not. It has an arsenal, but it faces a much larger set of problems than the US, while it's own eyes and ears have been going off line progressively over the last 2 decades. MAD exists in theory only, and it is entirely likely that the US could launch a first strike on Russia under certain scenarios, and come away without suffering any (or many) losses comparatively. To be clear, this is not advocating saying we should - of course we should not. But equally we cannot make an assessment about the status of the US-Russian nuclear balance of power by presuming Russia 2017 is Russia 2002, much less USSR 1987. Time went on. The US kept up. Russia did not.

    And russia's problems are due to get worse. It sounds crazy, but Russian military planners are obsessed with a type of US weapon that doesn't even exist yet and won't for another decade. Prompt global strike weapons. The ability for the US to hit, say, a Russian nuclear launch side with a conventionally-tipped hyper-sonic cruise missile based on US soil (or launched from a B-52). They would not be treaty limited, and would add even more aim-points for Russia to target. So if for example, the US added 200 PGS launchers in North Dakota, aimed at Russia, Russia's aim point hit list grows from 600 to 800 with 1550 warheads, which means now they have to launch only 1 warhead at some target, which is a gamble, because again, 10% failure rate, and that's before missile defense.

    Put it all together, MAD is an emergent property from a set of relationships. It's not a force of nature. It is not the article of faith some treat it as. It is something the players in the equation need to actually work at in order to maintain. The US is, Russia is not, and the MAD of the 1980s is emphatically not the MAD of the 2010s and unless Russia reaches some kind of parity with the US - and they won't any time soon, it'll continue to exist only in theory.

    This is one reason the US should not extend NewSTART once it expires. NewSTART was tremendously beneficial to Russia from the standpoint of it's conventional military modernization, but was hysterically beneficial to the US from the standpoint of nuclear modernization, nuclear balance of power and Prompt Global Strike. It's actually insane Putin signed the deal. Once NewSTART expires, it'll be nearly impossible for Russia to be able to afford to exceed the caps set by it by any great deal to dramatically change the equation, while the US will be free to expand launcher numbers, particularly those Prompt Global Strike launchers that make Russian leaders so paranoid. In a NewSTART followup, they'll want those to count towards treaty launcher limits without a doubt. The US would never agree to that. Even Obama wouldn't, because the Russians tried already, and that was 2011.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    So do you, to make people "free" and stamp down assumed bigots.

    Suppose i would support some movement that wanted to turn US political system into Russian one.

    Would you fight against it in principle? Or would you support it as valid expression of personal freedom?
    I have no desire to stamp down bigots, merely stop them from harming others via oppression.

    I would fight against all forms of authoritarianism, regardless of when and where.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    This is a nonsensical argument. You're essentially saying that because people feel oppressed in every country, it doesn't matter that people in Russia or any other particular country feel oppressed.
    No, i'm saying it's silly to claim "because anyone is feeling oppressed" opinion of those who do not feel oppressed should hold no weight. Everyone matters, not just those who feel oppressed.

    Because if not then if you don't feel oppressed then your own opinion holds no weight either; and if you do you need to fight against your own oppression first and foremost.

    It is also important to create and assert shared values before fighting against oppression. Otherwise you break oppression one way and then get other people thinking exactly the same as those you've overthrown back in power.

    Why bother when you'll never get rid of oppression?
    You certainly can and Russia did it multiple times. We had October Revolution and we had USSR breakdown with "unrestricted freedom".

    Breaking society is easy enough, both from top and from bottom.

    But results of "getting rid of oppression" are not always worth the costs. There are benefits, but there are also risks. It helps to minimise risks if you feel change is justified, and i see no attempts to do that.

    So why should i support something that will almost definitely worsen my life?

    Well, that's an incredibly silly way to justify oppression, and also an easy way to avoid taking responsibility for the actions of your country's government.
    Government is there for the people; and they are doing what they think is right for the country. That always means there will be judgement calls on what should be supported and what should be oppressed.


    No country will ever be perfect, but that's not an excuse to just accept the status quo. The strides that we've (all human beings, regardless of country) made for prosperity and human rights have not come from just accepting oppression. It comes from individuals doing their part to make the world slightly less shitty than it was yesterday.
    Well, you can easily claim that Russian strides did come from accepting some degree of oppression. In the name of stability after wild 90's.

    Or, alternatively, that Putin is "individual doing his part to make this world slightly less shitty then it was yesterday", if you like - trying alternative approach in Syria after US tried theirs in Iraq and Libya.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I would fight against all forms of authoritarianism, regardless of when and where.
    So you would fight against movements that would run counter to your values?

    How are you different from Putin's Russia then when it does the same with homosexuals?
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2017-08-10 at 07:07 PM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    I don't even have to search for a link for a government news outlet...this is US policy. It is called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. Do you need me to send you a link to prove the internet exists too?

    Why are you so hung up on trust? You are lucky if you can even trust your wife, let alone a foreign Nation.
    There's a difference on the existence of MAD, and then boasting about it on a goverment owned national TV station, you know the difference, no need to act ignorant.

    Hung up on trust? Are you serious right now? You couldnt care less if Russia helped electing Trump? If Russia is lying about their intentions and whatever goal they have for their country, even if it's at the expense of yours? Noone can expect 100% honesty from anyone, but why bother with someone who constantly lies? I seriously hope your relationship isnt that shitty.
    Last edited by Crispin; 2017-08-10 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    No, i'm saying it's silly to claim "because anyone is feeling oppressed" opinion of those who do not feel oppressed should hold no weight. Everyone matters, not just those who feel oppressed.

    Because if not then if you don't feel oppressed then your own opinion holds no weight either; and if you do you need to fight against your own oppression first and foremost.

    It is also important to create and assert shared values before fighting against oppression. Otherwise you break oppression one way and then get other people thinking exactly the same as those you've overthrown back in power.

    You certainly can and Russia did it multiple times. We had October Revolution and we had USSR breakdown with "unrestricted freedom".

    Breaking society is easy enough, both from top and from bottom.

    But results of "getting rid of oppression" are not always worth the costs. There are benefits, but there are also risks. It helps to minimise risks if you feel change is justified, and i see no attempts to do that.

    So why should i support something that will almost definitely worsen my life?

    Government is there for the people; and they are doing what they think is right for the country. That always means there will be judgement calls on what should be supported and what should be oppressed.


    Well, you can easily claim that Russian strides did come from accepting some degree of oppression. In the name of stability after wild 90's.

    Or, alternatively, that Putin is "individual doing his part to make this world slightly less shitty then it was yesterday", if you like - trying alternative approach in Syria after US tried theirs in Iraq and Libya.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So you would fight against movements that would run counter to your values?

    How are you different from Putin's Russia then when it does the same with homosexuals?
    Well, the issue is actual harm. I only want to stop someone from harming another. Gay marriage does not harm others, so should be legal. It allows for maximum freedom.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Well, the issue is actual harm. I only want to stop someone from harming another. Gay marriage does not harm others, so should be legal. It allows for maximum freedom.
    But how exactly would you be harmed by movement to turn US into different country, more like Russia?

    It's just political system. Simple change in culture, different approaches, different perspectives.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    But how exactly would you be harmed by movement to turn US into different country, more like Russia?

    It's just political system. Simple change in culture, different approaches, different perspectives.
    It's not just about ME being harmed, it's about any innocent person being harmed. Does gay people getting married harm others? Of course not, so it should be legal.

    Your culture just happens to be more oppressive and authoritarian than most. I support freedom, that is a bridge than cannot be gapped.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's not just about ME being harmed, it's about any innocent person being harmed. Does gay people getting married harm others? Of course not, so it should be legal.
    But how exactly would "innocent person be harmed" by movement toward different values? :/

    They just want things to be different. They think it'll be great - and they can prove it'll be great - for them. Just like gay marriage sounds great for homosexuals. And for the rest not much would change - nothing they care about, anyway. Nothing important.

    Your culture just happens to be more oppressive and authoritarian than most. I support freedom, that is a bridge than cannot be gapped.
    More then Saudi Arabia? More then China? Which metric are you using to claim "most"?

  14. #114
    Deleted


    BDSM slaves show more disobedience than Trump does.

    But gratz on the monees you have now.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    But how exactly would "innocent person be harmed" by movement toward different values? :/

    They just want things to be different. They think it'll be great - and they can prove it'll be great - for them. Just like gay marriage sounds great for homosexuals. And for the rest not much would change - nothing they care about, anyway. Nothing important.

    More then Saudi Arabia? More then China? Which metric are you using to claim "most"?
    Oppressing an action that does not cause harm is going to harm innocent people who have done nothing to deserve it.

    How does gay marriage harm others?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    We must bring hardship to their people through every angle.
    What's the people got to do with it?

  17. #117
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You are disgusted by gay people? Good to know.
    I am disgusted by gay sex, not by people. As long as it's not being shoven in my face, live and let live. I'm opposed to the idea of making holy cows and higher race out of minorities.
    Maybe it's their desire to shut down websites of political rivals, or to silence gay people and their supporters. It could be their attempts to silence dissent of the administration. It could also be their control over news networks, and their violence towards political opponents.

    https://freedomhouse.org/report/free...ld/2016/russia

    You may not feel oppressed, but those other people sure as shit do. Let me guess, you want to know why you should care about the oppression of others? The answer is clear. If you don't care about the oppression of others, then you don't get to complain when it happens to you.
    Freedom House. Why not ask McCain directly? Or US State Dept.? There will always be a small group of dissidents who will shout about how they're oppressed. Their honesty, however, as their allegiance, shows when you look at where their money comes from. It keeps going on since soviet times, nothing changed. This so-called "oppression" doesn't concern 99,99% of Russians. Why not topple US government and lay waste to the state because three and a half blacks in Minnesota were shot by cops?
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    I have to disagree with you on this the US being in a constant state of war idea. We had given up on the "civilized world," after WW1, and we were pretty content to just stick to own hemisphere. It's really complicated, but most of the wars you are likely going to complain about were proxy wars between Capitalism and Communism with Russia being heavily involved as well.
    Good point, but where does it go past 1991? The ever-green Iraq topic?
    I still hold onto that romantic notion if people like Americans and Russians can get along, there is nothing that can stop mankind's progress. Seeing all that disrupted by old SJW's to distract from their failed policies...infuriates me.
    When you read the works of visionaries like Arthur Clarke from 70s, the way they saw space conquered by Russians, Americans and Chinese together, and then you look at reality... Goddammit.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I am disgusted by gay sex, not by people. As long as it's not being shoven in my face, live and let live. I'm opposed to the idea of making holy cows and higher race out of minorities.

    Freedom House. Why not ask McCain directly? Or US State Dept.? There will always be a small group of dissidents who will shout about how they're oppressed. Their honesty, however, as their allegiance, shows when you look at where their money comes from. It keeps going on since soviet times, nothing changed. This so-called "oppression" doesn't concern 99,99% of Russians. Why not topple US government and lay waste to the state because three and a half blacks in Minnesota were shot by cops?

    Good point, but where does it go past 1991? The ever-green Iraq topic?

    When you read the works of visionaries like Arthur Clarke from 70s, the way they saw space conquered by Russians, Americans and Chinese together, and then you look at reality... Goddammit.
    So, because you are a homophobe, you want to force your beliefs onto others. Good to know. let me know when you support the legalization of gay marriage, and oppose the banning of "gay propaganda." At least you admit to your bigotry, so that's a start.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, because you are a homophobe, you want to force your beliefs onto others. Good to know. let me know when you support the legalization of gay marriage, and oppose the banning of "gay propaganda." At least you admit to your bigotry, so that's a start.
    Quick to point fingers, aren't we? Typical liberal. So easy to claim supremacy when you brand others. Let me ask you, do you enjoy gay porn? Because if not, you're just as homophobic as I am.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    What's the people got to do with it?
    They attack our families and our way of life. So we attack theirs.

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