7.2.5 Where is my ret buff?

[Deleted]

Again, since the comparison was between Arms and Ret, that's where the point of the discussion was for me.
Ret needs buff? Absolutely.
But to me claiming that Arms is Ret but better holds no merit, and in this I agree to disagree with Storm.

I know how Paladins were before. I played one extensively throughout BC and halfway through Wrath, stopping at around Ulduar to dedicate myself full time to my Warrior.
I have a complete lack of knowledge on how Ret played in MoP, but I know how it was in WoD and how immobile it feels now.

There's no need to list how it was before, because I know it. I know about Seal of Justice, Seal of the Crusader, deranking Seal of Command, how Judgement was out of the GCD, how important it was to have people full talent into Kings, to micromanage the procs of Art of War between Exorcism and FoL, all that jazz.

But aside on how the kit had more depht before, and it can be said for almost every class and spec now, Ret and the Paladin in general has utility that a Warrior simply doesn't.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yeah right, (f)utility. Having a holy or prot paladin in your raid comp removes this point out of equation whatsoever, as they bring more of the same, yet better, and yet more still.
Offhealing is nonexistent, so there it goes.
Which leaves as with damage as the last measure of worthiness. Which Retribution lacks. Which, in turn, brings back same old question of why pick Ret.
Hold in mind, all of the above was said in regards to dragonslaying.
Now let's turn our gaze towards pvp. Would you still claim retribution utility is better in pvp? Retribution damage? Retribution offhealing, selfhealing, cc, mobility?
Why pick ret?

[Deleted]

I can't really speak anymore about PvP. The little I had with ret was playing Ret Rogue with a friend, which is always been a strong comp.
And it's really a testament to nothing that we kind of steamrolled the session: sub1700 means nothing.
That being said, Ret is strong in kill setups. It has some things that annoy me to no end and back, such as Judgement cleaving for no reason and breaking every Sap and Blind in history, but if needs be the frontloaded burst is amazing.
It has infinite problems though, as you mentioned: for one, you'll never kill a Frostmage left 1 vs 1 and if he has more than two fingers.

Having a Holy or Prot Paladin in a m+ environment isn't always a given. Sometimes you play Ret in m+, and it's nice to have those little things.
And of course a healer will bring more utility to a teamcomp, it's inherently true regardless. Prot has Light of the Protector, all the merrier, but has other problems aswell.

The barebone kit of the class doesn't magically disappear because one decided to spec Ret though. It's true that Hands/Blessings are provided by any Paladin, but then again if you enjoy Ret then it's a strong point in your favor if you're able to play around your strengths and clean the Necrosis/ dispel the poison/ throw some freedoms/ can facetank something because you can autobubble regardless of your globals and how much damage you can take.
Ret is pretty strong in BRH aswell given how everybody there is undead and how Wake of Ashes is basically another aoe cc added to the eventual mix.

In raids? In raids soaking is better done by someone else. Rogues do better mobility wise and damage wise. Offhealing is nonexistant, and utility can be provided by other specs since the roster can be bigger.
Blessings as I said are bound to be overgeared.

So basically, why Ret? Because to someone it's fun.
Could be funnier, could be as it was, but maybe just fun will do.

EDIT:
Let me however repeat that I agree with Ret needing buffs. And to me the simplest of buffs can easily be +damage on the Ret aura, so that the class can sit in a comfortable upper middle of the pack.

[Deleted]

+ damage on ret aura.

The trolling is real

[Deleted]

The aura influencing all the abilities, to clear any misunderstandings.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Retribution doesn't need buffs.
It needs competent development. Not supposedly competent, but actually competent.
Examples are here for you to see: gbom, retribution passive, holyfart, greater judgement, jol being a talent. Just to name a few.
Or having zero offensive tools while being supposedly an offensive type of paladin. And no, hitting stuff with a stick in the head doesn't cut as one.
Just compare Hammer of Why Did You Pick This Shit with Pain Dispenser.

[Leefa]

You can only buff your way out of trouble to a certain degree. What ret is lacking right now is a proper design. Just to name some:

- Mastery is a trainwreck. Just give us back Hand of Light instead of this cheap colossus smash look-a-like mechanic.
- Mobility is non-existant, we no longer have our base passive speed and our "sprint" is complete garbage. Give us back Pursuit of Justice and buff the damn horse already.
- Utility is completely gone, the only minor thing left is basically wisdom which is still limited use and probably wont save anyone. Give us back Hand of Sac and make JoL base, then take it from there.
- Retribution (the passive). Why this is still a thing is beyond me, get rid of it already (make it a pvp talent or whatever)

Buffing numbers is all well and good, but that should come AFTER the spec actually works on the basic level.

[Ulthane]

You can only buff your way out of trouble to a certain degree. What ret is lacking right now is a proper design. Just to name some:

- Mastery is a trainwreck. Just give us back Hand of Light instead of this cheap colossus smash look-a-like mechanic.
- Mobility is non-existant, we no longer have our base passive speed and our "sprint" is complete garbage. Give us back Pursuit of Justice and buff the damn horse already.
- Utility is completely gone, the only minor thing left is basically wisdom which is still limited use and probably wont save anyone. Give us back Hand of Sac and make JoL base, then take it from there.
- Retribution (the passive). Why this is still a thing is beyond me, get rid of it already (make it a pvp talent or whatever)

Buffing numbers is all well and good, but that should come AFTER the spec actually works on the basic level.

Agreed, but if they are gonna be lazy all they need to do honestly is buff Judgment a metric ton and Mastery as well. That hammer needs to hit hard regardless. Otherwise yea, this gotta change.

[Deleted]

The aura influencing all the abilities, to clear any misunderstandings.

I know what you are referin to Mon. Just some things change on the ptr. But no worries.
To add on the last two posts : One more thing the designers forgot about : Removal of hammer of wrath was not only annoyin cause it felt like a kick in the nuts. It also removed the execute phase. Is this important? It's a freakin game changer. We only have one dps cd that locks yus on boss 1/3 of the encounter and no execute to compensate. We literally are attached to wings and crusade for everything and this is the first time since earlly vanilla if am not mistaken. Removing pursuit of justice for example is one thing. We got crippled w/e is oke I can see the thought behind it. But removing execute from a class leaving only a long duration dps cd is a major undertaking and they obviously did a bad job doing so.

[Reith]

I know what you are referin to Mon. Just some things change on the ptr. But no worries.
To add on the last two posts : One more thing the designers forgot about : Removal of hammer of wrath was not only annoyin cause it felt like a kick in the nuts. It also removed the execute phase. Is this important? It's a freakin game changer. We only have one dps cd that locks yus on boss 1/3 of the encounter and no execute to compensate. We literally are attached to wings and crusade for everything and this is the first time since earlly vanilla if am not mistaken. Removing pursuit of justice for example is one thing. We got crippled w/e is oke I can see the thought behind it. But removing execute from a class leaving only a long duration dps cd is a major undertaking and they obviously did a bad job doing so.

No execute + no damage over time + no way to bank resources off target + bad mobility + no ranged ability over 12 yards except judgment = wtf were they thinking?

[jontunnel130]

Well depending how long you've been ret. This is par for the course. Both for PVE and PvP. Bubble is always referenced in any argument a blue will post to justify shotty mechanics, clunky gameplay, poor mobility, below par aoe, bad ST, 8 million horse mounts, no gap closer, no ranged ability, and now heals are back to negligible. I personally think it's fallout from 3.1 that got hotfixed immediately. I really do. Though we've had our middle of the pack moments here and there. We ARE the redheaded step-child. Get use to it. We are no ones baby that will get looked at immediately if something is wrong or numbers arent parsing up to top 3 dps specs. Ret is extremely low priority. Usually waiting for an entire expansion for someone to notice us.

side bar: I personally think the entire talent system is effed now anyway...for any class. What point was there to take away spells and abilities that we have known, used, and loved for over a decade? And then make them spec specific! I wont even comment on the ap system

[Anardel]

I'm agree about having better devs, but please stop, after a fucking entire year, asking for mobility.

They aren't going to give us any mobility because they specifically asserted that our main weak point is mobility.

What we need to ask is if our supposed GOOD points are really as good as they deserve. If our mobility is our weakness and our damage when on target is our strenght, we need to analyze if that's true and our damage is worth, which is not.

Some time ago they talked about feedback and iterations and said why some "good ideas" people posted are ignored, and the reason was clear: they have their ideas posted for us and asked us if their ideas are well implemented, so the objective is accomplished. But instead of doing that, people only complain about intended weaknesses.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'm agree about having better devs, but please stop, after a fucking entire year, asking for mobility.

No mobility design doesn't work.
Not with this spec and those developers.
Which classes are most suited and sought for when it comes to PvP?
Hint: it's not Retribution Paladin despite our oh so powerful utility, even more powerfullest offhealing or the most incredibliestestest immunties en galore.
Care to guess why?
Hint #2: it's not because of damage.

[Anardel]

No mobility design doesn't work.
Not with this spec and those developers.
Which classes are most suited and sought for when it comes to PvP?
Hint: it's not Retribution Paladin despite our oh so powerful utility, even more powerfullest offhealing or the most incredibliestestest immunties en galore.
Care to guess why?
Hint #2: it's not because of damage.

You're asking for a solution to a problem that's intended to exist. What you need to complain is about the "immobile juggernaut" role, because we're indeed immobile, but we sure are not juggernauts.
So the real flaw is not mobility, it's defensive CDs and damage.

They clearly stated their goals about ret's design, and we need to make feedback about that design being wrong implemented. The other "feedback" will be simply ignored.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're asking for a solution to a problem that's intended to exist. What you need to complain is about the "immobile juggernaut" role, because we're indeed immobile, but we sure are not juggernauts.
So the real flaw is not mobility, it's defensive CDs and damage.

They clearly stated their goals about ret's design, and we need to make feedback about that design being wrong implemented. The other "feedback" will be simply ignored.

And I clearly stated Retribution needs propers developers (which in turn brings proper design)
And you clearly agreed with me
Now you're clearly stating we should be okay with a weakness which is flawed design-wise and hinders the spec beyond all measure.
Clearly the solution is to demand defensive cooldowns, it'll solve our problems. (not)

It doesn't matter if you are an immobile juggernaut (topkek), or if you are an immobile juggernaut with defensive cd's.
Bottom line is you're still immobile and 30 yards away from the enemy team.
Retribution needs actual offensive tools, of which it has none. It's an offensive spec.

[Ulthane]

So to meet immobile juggernaught we see the following that could work for our favor mechanics wise.

-Judgement instead of debuffing now activates the Retribution passive, mastery now affects this passive.
-Eye for an Eye is now a maintained buff via Holy Power
-Judgment of the Light baked into ret baseline
-Word of Glory baseline, holy power cost removed or Cooldown lowered to compensate for holy power cost.
-Divine Intervention baseline
-Because of added support beccause of JoL and WoG it might be smart to remove Greater blessings. Abilities like Blessing of the Ashbringer would proc off Retribution buff.

There, that is a simple mechanics change amd added defense that meets the holy juggernaught build

[Anardel]

And I clearly stated Retribution needs propers developers (which in turn brings proper design)
And you clearly agreed with me
Now you're clearly stating we should be okay with a weakness which is flawed design-wise and hinders the spec beyond all measure.
Clearly the solution is to demand defensive cooldowns, it'll solve our problems. (not)

It doesn't matter if you are an immobile juggernaut (topkek), or if you are an immobile juggernaut with defensive cd's.
Bottom line is you're still immobile and 30 yards away from the enemy team.
Retribution needs actual offensive tools, of which it has none. It's an offensive spec.

But that's not a ret buff, that's a spec redesign which is a totally different story :P

[Improtaight]

They're pretty adamant on not hotfixing us anymore right now, as well as not addressing any of our real problems (6 dead dps talents being among the most obvious). Mastery is a problem, which we'll have to wait for 7.3.

i hate not having much of a choice when it comes to talents, i'd like to change it per boss but it just sux so much.
Pallys are only getting reworked next exp, i think mastery will be changed again.

you can forget about change to our talents in this exp, especially like what happened to Frost and Feral, not happening.

[Ulthane]

Im honestly holding out for maybe signs of life in 7.3.5

Otherwise that Q/A hits at Blizzcon im gonna be there, in line asking them: So guys, ret. What the actual name of the Light was going on this expansion.

[General Guderian]

Im honestly holding out for maybe signs of life in 7.3.5

Otherwise that Q/A hits at Blizzcon im gonna be there, in line asking them: So guys, ret. What the actual name of the Light was going on this expansion.

And they will say:

Can you clarify on what exactly you mean? Numbers may be off a bit and mobility is a little low, but otherwise ret is fine. Thank you for coming to blizzcom.