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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Nobody's talking about hard content here. If it's hard, you git gud or you fail. This is about automatic matchmaking where you get people of different skill levels and experience creating conflict.
    Funny that. You know where people used to "git gud"? In easier content when someone had the balls to slap them down when they pulled stupid shit, call them out for not interupting / dispelling, get on their case for standing in bad, or just in general let them know that they are playing like a dumbass. But since everybody now is too afraid to tell the dumbass to stop being a dumbass and learn how to play their goddamned class or follow basic dungeon ettiquette, we instead end up with the current Dungeon Finder culture, which is essentially a breeding ground for shipping entitled asswipes off into "hard" content without a clue in the world about how to actually survive in said content.

    Maybe if we fixed the toxic culture in Dungeon / Raid Finder groups and stopped letting them get away with being a dumbass because "lol ez content", we wouldn't have to essentially re-train them from the ground up to "git gud" when they start trying hard content. Cause, you know, they would actually be gud already.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2017-08-11 at 10:47 PM.

  2. #462
    As a tank, I don't mind the dps pulling. Just pull them to me at least.

  3. #463
    Obviously the rogue overestimated what he was capable of

  4. #464
    Herald of the Titans Aurabolt's Avatar
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    As someone who is proficient as a Tank, DPS (Melee, Ranged as Caster) and Healer. I'll speak from all 5 perspectives:

    Tank: I follow the simple rule of if you pull something and don't kite it to me, if it's not necessary then you better be able to handle on your own while I'm dealing with my current mob. I only chain pull when Tanking as a Druid, Warrior or DK since generating and maintaining aggro is easy for me and I can safely absorb the burst damage without incoming or self-heals for at least 10 seconds. I no longer chain pull as a Pally since holding aggro has been an issue for me since MoP for some reason (LOL). Haven't spent enough time tanking as a Monk or DH to comment.

    Melee DPS: I won't aggro anything other than what the Tank tapped unless the Healer is getting attacked. I will also kite the pull into the Tank so they can pick it up.

    Ranged DPS: I rarely use BM outside instances but Pre-Legion, I kept pet aggro off. It prevented "accidents". LOL.

    Caster DPS: I never pulled. EVER. When playing Warlock I just didn't use a VW or FG, eliminating the risk of accidental pulls ^_^

    Healer: Honestly, I hate chain pulls. More so when the Tank or a DPS with less than 50% Health keeps just out of range of me. Then they get pissed when they die because I couldn't get a heal off in time because they were too far. Or the right heal for the situation is on CD. Or I'm OOM from frequent pulls.

    ...With that last one, when I tank I always ask the Healer when they have less than 50% Mana if they need to drink and they almost always say "No". Then wonder why they run out of Mana halfway into a boss encounter.
    ...Ok, time to change the ol' Sig ^_^

    This time I'll leave you the Links to 3 of my Wordpress Blogs: 1. Serene Adventure 2. Video Games 3. Anime Please subscribe if you like what you see. As a Bonus, I'll throw in my You Tube channel =D

  5. #465
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Rogue's the asshat. The tank's fine. There are different roles for a reason. Tank grabs and holds agro, DPS kills mob, healer keeps everyone alive. Since, well, forever, pulling stuff ahead of the tank has been a 'you pull it, you tank it' - it caused DPS t watch their aggro when threat was an issue pre-LK. It's also a way to enforce the "you do your own job" thing.

    Here's the thing - if the DPS wants to go faster, they can ASK "hey, tank, mind of I pull more to you?" You know, like a reasonable person instead of a jackass.

  6. #466
    I pull all the time as a healer and I make damned sure that the mobs are coming straight to the tank, never had anyone complain about it. If you do not know how to manipulate a pull and you try to tank it as a rogue (or any dps) you are absolutely in the wrong.

    If the tank is painfully slow without a valid reason, ask him to speed up. If he does not, kick.

    This is of course only true if you are reasonably Ilevel appropriate for the content. If you are a 938 dps doing the daily heroic dungeon you can probably solo it and you can just pull away.

  7. #467
    I am Murloc!
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    Doesn't matter, as long as they understand the flow of the dungeon. If it's in the path I'm going and the affixes don't prohibit such pulls, I don't really mind. Mix certain affixes in, or pull inefficiently bothers me though, as does pulling something that can be avoided.

    I can count on one hand the amount of times people pulled before me, to where it actually annoyed me, and that's mainly a product of them causing wipes because of it. I've had DPS pull Shade of Aran on high M+ before me, and died in half a second to arcane missiles, and I've had a couple times where DPS pulled during a bolstering week (which also quickly causes wipes). Outside of that, it really doesn't matter, as long as they know what they are doing.

    You pull, you tank is far more toxic, and I've tanked since the dawn of time. It doesn't make sense to me to purposely slow down a run to prove a point, because the whole point (at least how I play the game) is to be efficient. If i can save some idiot DPS/healer who pulled incorrectly and make the run more efficient, I will. There is little to be gained from me trying to teach people how to play the game within a random dungeon or raid, and it's unlikely they are the type of people to absorb this type of criticism and perhaps change how they play the game anyway.

  8. #468
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    "Situation: RDF, tank going at his pace, rogue decides it's not fast enough, goes pulling packs, tank gives no f*cks, rogue dies, rogue throws tantrum, tank says "You pull, you tank"."

    Tanks pace could be anywhere between extremely slow because total noob/very new, or decent pace.
    Based on the description given by the OP the tank doesn't sound like a total noob, nor going extremely slow. It's pretty clear from the title of the thread plus the way the OP text is phrased that this is how the OP wants us to imagine the scenario. So that is the scenario to which my assumptions apply and the scenario I am discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    There isn't "one story fits all" in here. In your situation sure, if no one dies and the tank is reasonably competent I agree
    The OP described "one story". So I am answering to that "one story". Sure, given different scenarios I agree that there are times where tanks are dicks. But this isn't one of them. It's 100% the rogue in the wrong, the tank is totally justified in his action and deserves to be applauded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    But most slow tanks I come across, are extremely slow, and extremely (for lack of a better word, don't get hung up on it) trash. Meaning they're also not good enough to gain complete re-control over a situation like letting adds roam free.
    If you're going to assume the tank is noob/trash, then why assume that allowing the rogue to die was intentional? Anyhow it's irrelevant. That is not the scenario presented in the OP. In the OP only the rogue died. Which is the scenario to which my assumptions apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    You're also assuming the rogue is the highest damaging member of the group. What if he isn't? Rogue pulls 5 mobs, the warrior in the group jumps over to help him kill them, tank sits back wanting to let the rogue die, but then the warrior pulls aggro and dies before the rogue.

    VERY rarely, is it as simple as letting only the player who pulls die.
    In the scenario under discussion only the rogue died. So that is the scenario I am discussing and to which my assumptions apply.

  9. #469
    I can't believe people are actually defending the fucking rogue.
    I'm leveling a warrior tank right now and I go fast. I just like to loot the mobs, but I'm not slow. DPS still pull things.
    I simply ask them to stop, and if they won't listen I enter tourist mode so that they can either stop pulling or kick me.
    No, it's not my "job" to tank regardless of how the mobs are pulled.
    Let me pull or kick me. If you don't like it, reroll tank yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Niaraa View Post
    i desagree, i like it! and i feel usefull when i correct individuals fails. this afternoon for exemple, a hunter dont saw a patrol behind him. here we go for and extra pack with a damn hunt at 15% life!
    That was great for me to heal harder using some CD and keep everybody alive, tank doing a great job avoiding me to instanly die after healing the hunt and the mage did an amazing job too by sheeping a mob to reduce the danger. For me a groupe must be ONE. a tank who sit down and look a dps die have nothing to do in a mmorpg, even if the dps is a dick he must try to save him, if he cant, not a problem nobody can blame him. the problem for me is not who is right or who must do this or this, this is the attitude. for the learning of course that also applie on dps and healer too.
    This is a completely different situation. The dps accidentily pulled mobs behind him. He didn't rush ahead because he thought the tank was too slow.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Pallamouna View Post
    these people can easily reroll to tank
    Or the tank can just easily learn to play. Siding with the rogue here, people with the 'You pull it, you tank it' - mentality just have a god complex. It's also very stupid to just let the DPS die here, because it won't teach them anything. It will just reinforce their believe that the tank is too slow / not a good player / ego-tripping. If you tank the additional mobs, the outcome will likely be:

    - You defeat all mobs, meaning that the DPS was actually right and you, as a tank, should up the pace
    - The whole group dies, which means that the DPS was wrong to pull and you actually have a valid, proven reason to be mad at him.
    Last edited by reauxmont; 2017-08-14 at 09:31 AM.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by reauxmont View Post
    Or the tank can just easily learn to play. Siding with the rogue here, people with the 'You pull it, you tank it' - mentality just have a god complex. It's also very stupid to just let the DPS die here, because it won't teach them anything. It will just reinforce their believe that the tank is too slow / not a good player / ego-tripping. If you tank the additional mobs, the outcome will likely be:

    - You defeat all mobs, meaning that the DPS was actually right and you, as a tank, should up the pace
    - The whole group dies, which means that the DPS was wrong to pull and you actually have a valid, proven reason to be mad at him.
    Or
    - Not everyone is on steroids/or has ADHD or the mentality that they need to rush through everything like maniacs.

    Ask the tank to speed up but don't pull, try to kick the tank or even better; get a tank friend if you want speed runs so badly.

  12. #472
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    The "you pull, you tank" mentally is out of touch and just retarded thinking.

    It's the tanks JOB to tank shit REGARDLESS of how it was aggroed. That kind of mindset is unacceptable in LFD and LFR imo.
    Ah, the dependable Jaylock. Thanks for such a clear and striking self-portrait of all the asspullers

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Explicit Teemo Nudes View Post
    Or
    - Not everyone is on steroids/or has ADHD or the mentality that they need to rush through everything like maniacs.
    Those people probably haven't played long enough. Playing this game is basically balancing immersion and efficiency. Immersion eventually fades and is superseded by efficiency, resulting in "Woah, look at how shiny this dungeon is! I shall stop after every pull and look around!" being replaced by "I need to do X because I need Y. I'll do this as fast as possible, because the faster I go, the more chances at Y I'll have."

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by reauxmont View Post
    Or the tank can just easily learn to play.
    Hard to do when people keep running ahead and pulling shit when you haven't quite got the handle on dealing with stuff you pulled yourself.

  15. #475
    Deleted
    Honestly nothing is worse than a super slow tank

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Hard to do when people keep running ahead and pulling shit when you haven't quite got the handle on dealing with stuff you pulled yourself.
    Learning by doing.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Hard to do when people keep running ahead and pulling shit when you haven't quite got the handle on dealing with stuff you pulled yourself.
    I know, but just letting them die is not the right approach to this. I've learned to play tank myself a couple of times, and yes, it is frustrating when someone is pulling, but I always did my best in trying to taunt/aggro the additional mobs and do my job. If we wiped, I could just easily say "Hey man, apparently I'm not ready for pulling two groups at once, because as you see, we're all dead.". Works way better and is less god-complexy than "LOL U PULL U DIE", plus it usually keeps the DPS from trying it again because wiping and running in always takes more time.

    Of course, there's always people who do not learn, and yes, in that case it's probably the best to let them die, especially if the added mobs reset after that. But I'd keep away from this mindset in general and always try to tank added mobs.
    Last edited by reauxmont; 2017-08-14 at 10:45 AM.

  18. #478
    Who needs a tank for RDF

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykee View Post
    Honestly nothing is worse than a super slow tank
    Except a DPS who impatiently pulls everything then dies. :/

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Karon View Post
    Learning by doing.
    Basics first. Advanced stuff later. If some impatient nincompoop doesn't let you get the basics down, getting overwhelmed definitely won't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by reauxmont View Post
    I know, but just letting them die is not the right approach to this. I've learned to play tank myself a couple of times, and yes, it is frustrating when someone is pulling, but I always did my best in trying to taunt/aggro the additional mobs and do my job. If we wiped, I could just easily say "Hey man, apparently I'm not ready for pulling two groups at once, because as you see, we're all dead.". Works way better and is less god-complexy than "LOL U PULL U DIE", plus it usually keeps the DPS from trying it again because wiping and running in always takes more time.

    Of course, there's always people who do not learn, and yes, in that case it's probably the best to let them die, especially if the added mobs reset after that. But I'd keep away from this mindset in general and always try to tank added mobs.
    I tend to go with 3 strikes, less if they can't behave otherwise either. Fluke, warning, HAND. Still can't keep your feet still? One of us is leaving the group.

    There's a big difference based on class as well. A bear pretty much doesn't need to care, he's probably picking them up randomly anyway. A Paladin might not actually be able to do much about it if you get him on the wrong foot.

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