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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    I don't know, are the people with nazi flags, chanting "blood and soil," and decrying jews nazis?
    Are we talking about those people or the ones losing their jobs?

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Are we talking about those people or the ones losing their jobs?
    The people losing their jobs are the ones that were at the nazi rally, so both.

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    No he didn't. He said that the right to your job has to be weighed against the right of the company and coworkers right not to want to be around you.
    Yes, he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    I mean, you shouldn't lose a job over a view point
    Employers can and will fire you if you're making bad PR for the company.

  4. #1004
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Opinion/thought/voice is different from action.

    The employer should be free to think/voice whatever he wants about his racist employee.
    Just like the employee is free to think/voice whatever he is all about.

    But that employer should not have legal grounds to fire a man because he subjectively disagreed with the employees subjective opinions.
    Just like that employee should never have legal grounds to actually turn his racist thoughts into violence and murder.
    Why not? If my employee goes out and tells people that I'm an asshole, should I be able to fire him? If he goes out, and says that he supports pedophiles, should I have to keep him on as an employee?

    Fuck that.

    An employer and employee are in a voluntary agreement, one which both can end at any time. There is no harm caused, it's simply choosing to end that voluntary agreement. That would be like saying a friend should not be legally allowed to end a friendship with someone, just because that person is racist.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    1. I'm aware. Not relevant aside from demonstrating that all speech isn't just considered speech, which is why I pointed it out in the first place.
    2. Sure you can. Not all hate speech is just hate speech, as demonstrated by point 1.
    3. You're asking for a value judgement here regarding a specific question that I never actually disagreed with you on. I was just pointing out that referencing the first amendment as a justification for why people shouldn't be fired demonstrates a level of either ignorance or intentional misrepresentation of what the first amendment actually does. You clearly seem to be at least mildly educated on why some speech isn't just considered speech so that means you're intentionally misrepresenting the first amendment. Why lie about what the 1st does?
    4. "It's entirely legal but don't do it! You don't want the right to do it too!" That's not exactly an argument I find compelling. Why would I care if people on the left were held accountable for their actions? Except, and here's the kicker, simply showing up to protest a white nationalist rally isn't something that people are actually going to care about in the slightest. Want to hold Antifa accountable for some of the idiotic things they do? Be my guest!
    2. What is hate speech for you then? Because even LA Times seems to disagree with your notion.
    Things we call “hate speech” might occasionally fall into an existing 1st Amendment exception: a racist speech might seek to incite imminent violence against a group, or might be reasonably interpreted as an immediate threat to do harm. But “hate speech,” like other ugly types of speech we despise, is broadly protected.
    source
    In June, the Supreme Court reaffirmed this, and Gorsuch was not even on the bench.
    [The idea that the government may restrict] speech expressing ideas that offend … strikes at the heart of the First Amendment. Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”
    source
    3. Now that I have observably demonstrated, that even hate speech is protected under 1st Amendment we can return to the start. What sprung up this debate, was Axlehander's claim that it is okay to fire some people over their personal beliefs but not the other. All I ask from anyone is consistency. Same rules apply to everyone. Either you protect everyone, or you protect noone. Either anyone can be fired because of their personal beliefs, or noone can.

    4. Are you really that naive? Why would you even presume that the same event would be relevant to the right. Let me provide couple of examples: You have a rainbow profile on your facebook, fired. You support BLM, fired. You oppose abortion, fired. The examples listed might not be the official reason, but that would be the truthful one. We already crossed the Rubicon. Already in the past conservatives were prosecuted in public and had their livelyhood destroyed for far less. From just donating to a "wrong" charity, to having a friendly banter with friends.

    My argument never was "It's entirely legal but don't do it! You don't want the right to do it too!" My argument is, if you're doing it, be prepared to face the consequences. I'm not picking sides here over who is right and who is wrong. I'm just stating what is too obvious to ignore, that is, what is bound to happen.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Are we talking about those people or the ones losing their jobs?
    The rally was organised and promoted by neo-nazis and white supremacists, it seems a fairly safe bet that anyone attending at the very least was happy to be seen supporting and associating with those groups.

  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Are we talking about those people or the ones losing their jobs?
    We are talking about the guy losing his job because he walked among the people with nazi flags, chanting "blood and soil," and decrying jews.

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Are these actually Neo-Nazis?

    Do 90% of people actually understand what a Nazi is?

    It seems that we are heading down a road where we are ostracising what otherwise were contributing members of society and eventually we end up with what that film "Idiocracy" portrayed human civilisation to be like.
    What would you call people that willingly protest with people that talk about how it's the Jews and minorities, have Nazi paraphernalia, wave Nazi flags, and all of the other shit we are hearing about?

    What person in their right mind goes "Hmm, I should join in with those people waving flags with swastikas on them. After all they are trying to save a statue, so it's okay to talk about wanting to kill minorities, blame Jews, run people over with a car, and beat a black man in a parking garage. It's for the statue." If they don't have half a brain to realize that maybe they shouldn't be with those kinds of people then I don't know what to say.

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  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Whilst they might deserve it, firing someone for speaking their opinion seems a little slippery slope.

    In addition - do we really want the ignorant pushed further into dark places ?

    Sure - ignorance shouldn't be rewarded, but it also shouldn't be pushed away from the light either.
    Agreed. I'm about as anti neo-Nazi as they come, but basically threatening people to get in line ideologically or they'll get fired and can't take care of their families? That's pretty fucked up.

    EDIT: actually read the article (which I should've done first) and it makes me even more angry. These retards on twitter all happy because they got some dude fired? Who cares if he's got unpopular beliefs? If he's not outright advocating violence, then he should be left alone to be a sad specimen of humanity who believes that his skin color makes him super cool. I hope all those twitter asshats get cancer of the dick.
    Last edited by Xargoth6634; 2017-08-14 at 11:48 AM.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by thesib View Post
    Agreed. I'm about as anti neo-Nazi as they come, but basically threatening people to get in line ideologically or they'll get fired and can't take care of their families? That's pretty fucked up.
    Nobody is obliged to keep you around when you're a walking PR disaster for the company because of being a nazi.

  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Why not? If my employee goes out and tells people that I'm an asshole, should I be able to fire him? If he goes out, and says that he supports pedophiles, should I have to keep him on as an employee?

    Fuck that.

    An employer and employee are in a voluntary agreement, one which both can end at any time. There is no harm caused, it's simply choosing to end that voluntary agreement. That would be like saying a friend should not be legally allowed to end a friendship with someone, just because that person is racist.

    Legally you allowed (depends on country) to fire someone because he does his job poorly or you are making cuts to an over-employed workforce.

    You can not fire him/her because you think he should not be dating a muslim woman or a black man, or belong to some group/religion.

    What the employee thinks and does in his time is his own business.

    You as the employer should only be relevant for that employee's competence at his job.

    If he/she is doing his job properly and you don't need to fire people as a downsizing plan, you should have no legal grounds to fire him/her.

    Whats going to be next, employers threatening employees to vote for the boss's choice of presidential candidate OR get fired?

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by thesib View Post
    Agreed. I'm about as anti neo-Nazi as they come, but basically threatening people to get in line ideologically or they'll get fired and can't take care of their families? That's pretty fucked up.
    And to think they could easily keep taking care of their families if they could abstain from wanting to kill the Jews...

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    First off, I'm not a leftist, not by a long shot.

    Second, he was bashing a religion, then complaining that he got infracted for it. You already tried to jump to a conclusion about this type of thing before, when you jumped to the defense of the guy trying to say the Swastikas at the rally were for spiritual purposes.

    I fully support the criticism of any religion. That doesn't mean something cannot be called for what it is. One of the issues is the intent and reasoning behind such criticism. If you want to complain about a religion, I think you should be free to do so. If you want to do it on this particular forum, you will likely get infracted for it. That's still freedom of speech. If you get called Islamophobic, that is also freedom of speech.
    1st: I said at one point that symbol meant "peace". But now, and forever, it will be tainted as a hate symbol. I even called the guy a fool for suggesting these Nazis were using it as some "spiritual" thing. How you came to the conclusion that I was defending him, just baffles me. I recommend you go back and read what people actually said, before commenting.

    2nd: "Islamophobia" is a made up buzzword, meant to silence any and all dissent. No other religion get's special treatment like that. The fact anyone would defend the existence of that word, means they don't really believe in "Free Speech". Anyone with an ounce of reasoning skills can see what's actually going on when people use it. It's extremely ironic to say that labeling something "Islamophobic" is "Free Speech", considering it's very existence is a contradiction to Free Speech.
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  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Desareon View Post
    If you're seen an ANTIFA rally, you've seen a Communist rally. Take the one that happened yesterday in Seattle. People were openly walking around with Communist flags, and not a single reporter brought it up. Now why would that be? If you condemn one vile group but not another equally vile group, you are part of the problem.
    Because even if their methods often are questionable, the radical left is not based on hate or pseudoscience. The alt-right on the other hand can't claim either of those.

  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesib View Post
    Agreed. I'm about as anti neo-Nazi as they come, but basically threatening people to get in line ideologically or they'll get fired and can't take care of their families? That's pretty fucked up.
    Not to mention getting fired and not making end's meet might lead to desperate acts.

  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    3. Now that I have observably demonstrated, that even hate speech is protected under 1st Amendment we can return to the start. What sprung up this debate, was Axlehander's claim that it is okay to fire some people over their personal beliefs but not the other. All I ask from anyone is consistency. Same rules apply to everyone. Either you protect everyone, or you protect noone. Either anyone can be fired because of their personal beliefs, or noone can.
    It's not about their beliefs, it's about their actions. I can believe that snakes sell cotton candy to children to fun Scientology, all that does is make me a loon, but when I try and shout death to those that don't believe it, get others into my cause that run people over with a car, and beat someone in a parking garage, it is no longer about the belief, but the actions that were taking place.

    If you wanted to be part of NAMBLA, yay for you, but as soon as you start touch kids it isn't about the belief but the fucking kids you touched.

    You can't just expect what you say and especially what you do to be fully accepted and protected, and even more so by those that employ you and who you represent.

    You want to think that the Nazi's ideals are right, great, fantastic, but when you start doing stupid bullshit you're going to get a healthy dose of consequences.

    Is this getting through? It's about actions, not beliefs. You can think a terrible though, but when you actually act on it that's when shit hits the fan for you.

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  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Yes, he did.


    No he didn't, make an effort and manage to get through the entire 2 sentence post this time.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    What would you call people that willingly protest with people that talk about how it's the Jews and minorities, have Nazi paraphernalia, wave Nazi flags, and all of the other shit we are hearing about?

    What person in their right mind goes "Hmm, I should join in with those people waving flags with swastikas on them. After all they are trying to save a statue, so it's okay to talk about wanting to kill minorities, blame Jews, run people over with a car, and beat a black man in a parking garage. It's for the statue." If they don't have half a brain to realize that maybe they shouldn't be with those kinds of people then I don't know what to say.

    You play stupid games you win stupid prizes.
    I wonder if they always though like this, or if the left calling them Nazis 24/7 for years maybe caused them to research what being a Nazi was.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Or maybe they'll wise up and leave their foolish ideology behind.
    Or maybe they'll get really pissed off at being targeted and fired for attending a rally and start running more people over with their cars.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    And to think they could easily keep taking care of their families if they could abstain from wanting to kill the Jews...
    Yes, because ALL of them are out preaching death to all Jews, right?

  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Legally you allowed (depends on country) to fire someone because he does his job poorly or you are making cuts to an over-employed workforce.

    You can not fire him/her because you think he should not be dating a muslim woman or a black man, or belong to some group/religion.

    What the employee thinks and does in his time is his own business.

    You as the employer should only be relevant for that employee's competence at his job.

    If he/she is doing his job properly and you don't need to fire people as a downsizing plan, you should have no legal grounds to fire him/her.

    Whats going to be next, employers threatening employees to vote for the boss's choice of presidential candidate OR get fired?
    No, what an employee does in his own time can, and often does, reflect on a business. Would you be less likely to go to a restaurant that employed neo-Nazis and white supremacists? It's literally impacting the employer's bottom line. Should an employee be forced to work for a boss they do not like? If I found out my restaurant manager was a white supremacist, should I not be allowed to quit after finding out that information?

    An employer should be able to fire an employee for any reason. An employee should be able to quit for any reason. Period.

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