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  1. #1
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Why is Learning a boss and downing it such a foreign concept to the pug community?

    This is something that really bugs me. I feel like the pug community wants to just roll into a new raid the week its released, and be carried to kills with little to no wipes. And then, when they get to the last boss of a raid, they feel entitled to get in and get a kill off the backs of other, more skilled players.

    Faking achievements is one thing, and I think its deplorable.

    Whining because groups wont take you because of: Ilvl, achievements, or any other reason is another thing and is just plain entitled behavior.

    Why does the pug community not want to join learning/progression groups (especially if they don't know the fights themselves, or maybe have little experience on the fights) and instead always either look to be carried, and if they arent being accepted to more experienced groups, they whine and cry on forums and in game that "we aren't being treated fairly / right because everyone is "always" looking for more experienced players"

    I know not all pug players are like this. I know there are several out there that will take the time to learn the fights in pugs and eventually down every boss in a new raid, and to you I say good on you! But the vast majority seem to be entitled snowflakes that think they should be brought to all groups they apply to just because they can breathe.

  2. #2
    Because Jay some people just want a carry. Simple as that mate.

    Not everyone is like this but it's noticeable. Hell they can even go make their own groups.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc! Phookah's Avatar
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    It's a pug. 99% of people don't join pugs for progression.
    So when a group starts wiping and everyone is supposedly 920 ilevel with AoTC, they leave after a few wipes. They didn't join to progress, they joined to kill it.

  4. #4
    Also I know it's not common but not rare either that there are actually good players that can learn the fight in 2 tries and start carrying the people who have AOTC, seen plenty actually lol. They don't need all that fancy talk of wiping like everyone else for hours, that happens because of weak links in raid groups usually.

  5. #5
    I am always uing fake achivement addon to join pug raids until i get curve. Why? I was mythic raider but now i can't raid with guild because of no time so i am raiding with pugs.

    And here is problem becasue people require higher ilvl than raid drops and curve. I am not failing on heroic, it's simple difficulty very easy but still i am limited until i get curve because pugs dont trust anyone and it's correct.

    So actually without curve/fake achivement addon and enough ilvl you will never find spot in raid until you are raid leader xD Also ilvl means nothing because you can be ilvl 930 with random items no set bonus and wrong legendaries and be 920 with set bonus and best legendaries so your performance will be better but pugs see only item level.
    Last edited by Druitz; 2017-08-14 at 04:03 PM.

  6. #6
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    It's a pug. 99% of people don't join pugs for progression.
    So when a group starts wiping and everyone is supposedly 920 ilevel with AoTC, they leave after a few wipes. They didn't join to progress, they joined to kill it.
    The point im making is people with little to no experience on a particular boss fight, or maybe all bosses in a raid will try to get into non-progression groups and get carried. More often than not, this is the case. It's like learning a boss and downing it with a full inexperienced group is a foreign concept to the majority of the pug community.

  7. #7
    Most pugs advertise as "ONLY CURVE GROUP - EVERYONE 930+ ONE SHOT GROUP!" so if someone joins that group and wipes, I'd say they're correct to leave

  8. #8
    I absolutely detest when a pug disbands after 2 wipes

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Druitz View Post
    I am always uing fake achivement addon to join pug raids until i get curve. Why? I was mythic raider but now i can't raid with guild because of no time so i am raiding with pugs.

    And here is problem becasue people require higher ilvl than raid drops and curve. I am not failing on heroic, it's simple difficulty very easy but still i am limited until i get curve because pugs dont trust anyone and it's correct.

    So actually without curve/fake achivement addon and enough ilvl you will never find spot in raid until you are raid leader xD Also ilvl means nothing because you can be ilvl 930 with random items no set bonus and wrong legendaries and be 920 with set bonus and best legendaries so your performance will be better but pugs see only item level.
    Exactly as my reply says, some people don't have much time to progress but they aren't the weakest link, two tries and you get the whole fight and can carry those "AOTC" guys that keep dying every time or underperform.
    Best is just trial and error I think, give people a chance to find such people that are amazing players but if they seem to perform like crap, just kick and get others.

  10. #10
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReVnX View Post
    I absolutely detest when a pug disbands after 2 wipes
    Yep, ive joined several pugs when im playing on alts and for the most part, I do it because I don't have the experience on that particular class. Its really become amusing to me to see the pug community in action when 1 or 2 wipes happen, several players leave, even when the title of the pug was "progression" or "learning" group.

    One word: Entitlement.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    It's a pug. 99% of people don't join pugs for progression.
    So when a group starts wiping and everyone is supposedly 920 ilevel with AoTC, they leave after a few wipes. They didn't join to progress, they joined to kill it.
    and that why hc/mythic should have never been brought to group finder in first place.

    cross realm raiding was ok when it was just people joining guild runs but complete pugs ? that was bound to bring nothing but sheer toxicity in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Yep, ive joined several pugs when im playing on alts and for the most part, I do it because I don't have the experience on that particular class. Its really become amusing to me to see the pug community in action when 1 or 2 wipes happen, several players leave, even when the title of the pug was "progression" or "learning" group.

    One word: Entitlement.
    they are to busy to wipe - gotta run those 12 alts through instance every week - no time for failures

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Because this is the generation of gaming/gamers we live in today. Everyone wants fast, easy, and instant gratification. The concept of effort in a video game is just about lost, hence the death of the true MMORPG. There's a type of gamer out there that literally wants to do nothing, yet expects everything.

    We bench (some, usually the same person) people every week in our guild runs because, even though they know mechanics, they can't be bothered to get flasks, gear enchants, gems, etc. They expect to just come in and get kills while everyone else comes prepared to kill shit. Same philosophy you're complaining about: some people just don't give a fuck.

    Best thing you can do is: Not give a fuck and/or stop pugging.
    nothing surpising - industry changes constantly - and blizzard is being left behind with each month - if at blizzcon they dont anounce some sort of mobile plug in to wow they will be out of mmo scene very soon as looking at trends mmo making companies make much more $$$$ out of shitty mobile mmorpgs then from pc/console versions.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-08-14 at 04:33 PM.

  12. #12
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    If I join a pug, I join one that's supposed to 1shot everything. Fuck wiping then. Wiping is for guild groups

  13. #13
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    This is something that really bugs me. I feel like the pug community wants to just roll into a new raid the week its released, and be carried to kills with little to no wipes. And then, when they get to the last boss of a raid, they feel entitled to get in and get a kill off the backs of other, more skilled players.

    Faking achievements is one thing, and I think its deplorable.

    Whining because groups wont take you because of: Ilvl, achievements, or any other reason is another thing and is just plain entitled behavior.


    Why does the pug community not want to join learning/progression groups (especially if they don't know the fights themselves, or maybe have little experience on the fights) and instead always either look to be carried, and if they arent being accepted to more experienced groups, they whine and cry on forums and in game that "we aren't being treated fairly / right because everyone is "always" looking for more experienced players"

    I know not all pug players are like this. I know there are several out there that will take the time to learn the fights in pugs and eventually down every boss in a new raid, and to you I say good on you! But the vast majority seem to be entitled snowflakes that think they should be brought to all groups they apply to just because they can breathe.
    What kind of twisted logic?

    First off the "pug community" not wanting to wipe. These are typically raiders playing on their off days on their alts who don't give a fuck about their alt, the group, or anyone else. You're talking about people who bail after the first hiccup. You think these are entitled non-organized raiding players? Players who are typically grateful they get to see the inside of raid before it hits LFR? The guy in shit gear, who no matter how fucking terrible the raids leader is, will stick it out for scraps no matter the cost? Those guys? Ya real entitled Jay

    Lets address the bold. The "faking of achievements" is in direct response to ridiculous mythic raiders (like yourself) who think that week 1 people should have downed the last boss. Any reasonable person wouldn't put such unrealistic demands on a PUG!

    Week 1 of ToS... there were a ton of groups forming for PuGs... and every single one of them, were demanding (1) higher ilvl than what actually dropped from that difficulty (2) Mythic Achievements from Gul'Dan (as if the majority of players actually EARNED those, and didn't pay for it)

    Why you come here to bitch at the people you perceive to be beneath you as if we are the problem... is beyond me. You have issue with PuG raids... why don't you ask the people YOU raid with, YOUR guild, MYTHIC players... those guys are the fucking douchers that cut and run and the first sign of a wipe, that feel they shouldn't have to provide an ilvl or achievement for their alt because they've already done it, and how dare you question otherwise.

    What you are describing as entitlement is actually ego... and it comes from your kin, your crowd, people like you.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and that why hc/mythic should have never been brought to group finder in first place.

    cross realm raiding was ok when it was just people joining guild runs but complete pugs ? that was bound to bring nothing but sheer toxicity in.
    It also brings opportunities. I had to quit MOP because the newest raid was not available via crossrealm and because of my life obligations, I can't commit to a guild. Following the topic, people leaving after 1-2 wipes (even when it was their fault) is very annoying, but that's how it is.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Yep, ive joined several pugs when im playing on alts and for the most part, I do it because I don't have the experience on that particular class. Its really become amusing to me to see the pug community in action when 1 or 2 wipes happen, several players leave, even when the title of the pug was "progression" or "learning" group.

    One word: Entitlement.
    I feel like this discussion will boil down to "well i had this happen to me" and " well i never had this happen to ME".

    Personally, the last time i entered a group that was advertised as "learning", people pulled without warning, did not bloodlust and wiped 3 times doing the same mistakes... on Normal Goroth.
    I understand people are upset at the high requirements made by the community but i also understand why they are here.
    Because most players are shit at this game.

  16. #16
    That concept died with TBC, people who play now have been spoon fed so much easy loot and accessible dungeons and raids, they don't know what learning a boss is. They assume that they can just get invited to a group and again get free loot. Blizzards mentality of give everyone easy loot has spoiled the whole working as a team aspect of the game. (unless u with friends or in a guild)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by klanker5 View Post
    I feel like this discussion will boil down to "well i had this happen to me" and " well i never had this happen to ME".

    Personally, the last time i entered a group that was advertised as "learning", people pulled without warning, did not bloodlust and wiped 3 times doing the same mistakes... on Normal Goroth.
    I understand people are upset at the high requirements made by the community but i also understand why they are here.
    Because most players are shit at this game.
    Well all things treated equally, the first boss should not be where you're having a learning experience. Yes some intro wing bosses are noob killers, but Goroth is pretty standard.

    If people make recurring mistakes then its time for you or them to move on, depending on the situation and the mistake.


    To address some of the other points broached in this thread, yes lots of people are entitled, no this isn't the case here in I'd say 95% of the cases in pugs. Though I hate it when people say this, it applies in this situation - probably the first I can think of - "it's just a game." The games changed a lot over the decades because its fans have changed. People need more flexible gaming because we grew up, went to college, got jobs and still need some way to pay for the electricity to play. Sure people want those nice pixels without the effort, is that any different than someone who wishes for an Aston Martin but doesn't want to work toward earning one? The back in my day line about BC was old in Wrath, people are going to do what they want. Quest and Kara gating back then did foster some digital grind ethic that many to this day mistake for work ethic.

    The guy above, who made me think to write this is only doing what any normal individual would do, you don't meet standards, no hard feelings but we need someone who does.

  18. #18
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    I have a gleeful joy moment when 'only curve' groups fail and disband after a maximum of five attempts. Dunno why, maybe it is because I've tried to pug with some that didn't have the achievement, and was a kill on 2nd attempt.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  19. #19
    If I have never seen a fight before, I'll join a PUG--almost any PUG--and go through a few wipes, if that's what it takes. Once I have learned the fight (and assuming the group isn't really bad, it only takes me a couple pulls), and too many players are making the same mistakes, then I will leave.

    Once I know the fight? If I see simple mistakes (say, on Maiden, too many bombs outside of the boss-induced ones), I'll leave very quickly. I know the fight at that point, and unless the raid leader is aggressively kicking (which isn't as common as we may like), then the entire exercise is a waste of time.

    So much of this, I think, comes down to the different kinds of groups and how many PUGers don't respect the leader and the people in the group. If you don't know the fight, don't apply to one-shot groups. It's as simple as that. Vice-versa too: if you expect a one-shot, don't join learning / progression groups. All of this disconnect comes from people joining specific groups for the wrong reasons--or, maybe, "the only group available is a one-shot group, I don't know the fight, but that's all there is so I'm going to join anyway." Then we get all this toxicity, quittings, and reforming because people aren't joining the appropriate groups.

  20. #20
    Brewmaster TheVaryag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    This is something that really bugs me. I feel like the pug community wants to just roll into a new raid the week its released, and be carried to kills with little to no wipes. And then, when they get to the last boss of a raid, they feel entitled to get in and get a kill off the backs of other, more skilled players.

    Faking achievements is one thing, and I think its deplorable.

    Whining because groups wont take you because of: Ilvl, achievements, or any other reason is another thing and is just plain entitled behavior.

    Why does the pug community not want to join learning/progression groups (especially if they don't know the fights themselves, or maybe have little experience on the fights) and instead always either look to be carried, and if they arent being accepted to more experienced groups, they whine and cry on forums and in game that "we aren't being treated fairly / right because everyone is "always" looking for more experienced players"

    I know not all pug players are like this. I know there are several out there that will take the time to learn the fights in pugs and eventually down every boss in a new raid, and to you I say good on you! But the vast majority seem to be entitled snowflakes that think they should be brought to all groups they apply to just because they can breathe.
    I'm glad you asked.

    Since the dawn of time we all strived to know a boss tactics cause we wanted to have an enjoyable, challenging boss fight.

    However, In today's casual mentality ever since Cataclysm which Blizzard has been highly encouraging mind you (Blame them) people just want free shiz for zero effort or brain function, and that's who they cator towards In Legion of all expansions and make It highly unfriendly to hardcore PvPers and Raiders.

    Also It's a pug, who cares really.. I mean If It's LFR, doubly who cares, I'd love for people to know I really would, but LFR Is a tourist show with minimal tactics where you shouldn't have expectations that people will be prepared for LFR like they would prepare for a Mythic Raid, same goes for random Heroic Dungeon runs, sometimes even Mythic+ and Mythic+ of all things Is the center of this mentality of "Rushing" and "no brain function just kill shit" kinda thinking we've had for so long, arguably since halfway through wrath since LFG was Introduced so even way further back.

    It's just these people who were encouraged by the game to not give a shiz, as well as their own silly mentality which Blizz likes to nourish. I mean It takes no effort, only like an hour-ish of watching raid guide videos on youtube to know 1 entire raid's worth of boss tactics (FatbossTV I've watched ever since WoD's launch they make good videos for boss fights on all difficulties)


    Quote Originally Posted by Fonduset View Post
    That concept died with TBC, people who play now have been spoon fed so much easy loot and accessible dungeons and raids, they don't know what learning a boss is. They assume that they can just get invited to a group and again get free loot. Blizzards mentality of give everyone easy loot has spoiled the whole working as a team aspect of the game. (unless u with friends or in a guild)


    Basically what I said, just to highlight this guy's comments. Even ever since TBC, arguably. Although It was still hard back then and It really was a giant problem around the end of wrath and a giant giant problem In Cataclysm and onward
    Permabanned on WoW since April 14th 2015, main acc I had since vanilla gone and trashed for no good reason, 6+ years later still banned with more appeals resulting in my BATTLENET games being suspended for a month eachtime I try making TICKETS because I'm asking for help with the perma ban. Blizzard has stopped caring for their first veteran players and would rather we leave, considering the Lawsuit, can you afford to keep peps banned even for so long under questionable circumstances?

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